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Full text of "Official report of debates (Hansard) : Legislative Assembly of Ontario = Journal des débats (Hansard) : Assemblée législative de l'Ontario 1945"

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VOL 1 

' vi''.v^•;'•* h-i'A*'; 

,i<-'> Mi A ■'■<\r ■':.'.* 


- I - 





Torouto, Ontario, 
Thursday., ; 
February iB*r'T945, 

SPEAKER: Honourable- William J. Stewart, C.B.E. 



His Honour the Lieutenant GoverXior -. 

Re In Memory Former Speaker — W,D. Black 

Re far Situation 

Re Education 

Re Health 

Re Sewage Disposal 

Re Public Food Supply 

Re Mental Hospitals 

Re Cancer 

Re Costs of Public Hospitals 

Re Public Welfare 

Re Department of Labour 

Workmen* s compensation Act. 

Labour Relations Bo«ird. 

Minimum wage Act. 
Re Agriculture 
Re Agricultural college 
Re Stock Yards 

Re County Agricultural Committees 
Re Mining 

Re Succession Duties 
Re Tourist Planiiing 
Re Game and Fisheries 
Re Vital Statistics Act 
Re Assessment Act 
Re Lands and Forests 

Laboratory - - Sault Ste. Marie 
Re Highways 
Re Public Works 
Re Hydro 

Re Securities' Act 
Re Election Act 






























-- II — 

Toronto^ Ontario, 
Februai*y 15, 19 45. 

Re Safety in Pubjlc Halls 20 

Re Planning and Development 20 

Re Flood Control 21 

Re Ontario civil Service gl 

Re Domiiiion-Proviricial Conference 22 

Re Public Accounts 22 

Return from General Election - 1943 - 22 

Introduction of: "An Act to Provide 
for the voting of Active Service Voters 
at a General Election to the Assembly" 

- Mr. Blackwell - 23 

First Reading 23 

Select Standing Committees 24 
Re Tabling of Public Accounts - year ended 

March 31,1944 -- 24 

8e Absentees from the Chaiaber - Ml*. Drew 25 

- lir. Jolliffe 26 

Re Guard of Honour - Mr. Drew 25 


- Ill - 



Toronto, Ontario, 
Friday, February 16^ 

SPEAKER: Honourable William J.Stewart, C.B.E. 


Tabling Report of Committees re Active Service 
Election Act, the Voters* List Act and 

Election Act - Mr. Blackwell ^ 

Re Working of committee S7 

Explanation of House Position - Mr. Alles 28 

Explanation of House position - Mr. Hancock 30 

A D J C U R N M E M T 38 

,. ?f' . IT 

- IV - 


T H 


■ I I ii T I ' I I I 


Toronto, Ontario, 
Monday, February 19,1945, 

SPEAICER: Honourable William J. Stewart, C.B.B* 

I ^ D E X 


corporation of 
Corporation of 
Corporation of 
Corporation of 
Corporation of 

of parrie 
of Welland 
of Ottawa 
o f Woodstock 
of Peterboroui 





Incorporate^ Synod of the Diocese of 

Corporation of City of Kingston 
Evangelical Lutiieran Seminary of Canada 
Corporation of city of St. Thomas 
Corporation of city of Pt . Arthur 
Sacred Heart College of Sudbury 
Kingsboro club 

Corporation of Township of Crowland 
Corporation of City of Toronto (2) 
Corporation of village of Swansea 

Re Stenographic Report Qf Debates a^id proceedings 

Select Committee re Library 

Select Committee re Art ' 

Select Committee re Select Standing Committees 

Introduction of: "An Act to Adend the Mefltal 
Hospitals Act" - Mr. Vivian 
First Reading 

Introduction of : 
Protection Act" 
First Reading 

"An Act to Amend 
- Mr. Vivian 

the Children's 


















- V - 

Toronto, Ontario 
Monday, February 19, 

Introduction of : "An Act 
Territorial Division Act" 
First Beading 

to Amend the 
- Mr. Thompson 

Introduction of: "An Act to Amend the 
Surveys Act - 1945" - Mr. Thompson 
First Reading 

Motion to adjourn for Urgent Busine*,s 

Re Distribution of Fuel - Mr 




Mr. Jolliffe 


Mr. Thornberry 


Miss Macphail 


Mr. Dennison 


Mr. Salsberg 


Mr. Drew 




Mr. Brown 


Mr. L.L. Robinson 

(Waterloo south) 


Mr. Frost 


Mr. Hepburn (Elgin) 



Mr. Mitchell 


Mr. Riggs 


Mr. Connor 


Mr. MacLeod 


BILL NO. 25: "An Act to Provide for the Voting 
of Active service voters at a General Election 
to the Assembly - Mr. Blackwell 


Explanation - Mr. Blackwell 61 
correspondence - Mr, Blackwell - Mr.McLarty 63 

New Sub-section 3 to Section 2 68 

Mr. jolliffe 69 

Mr. Grummet t 74 



- VI - 

Toronto, Ontario, 
Tuesday, February 20, 

SPEAKER: Honourable William J. Stewart, C.B.E. 


Introduction o^ Act: "The Voters' List Act, 1945'» 76 


Introduction of Act: "The Election Act, 1946" 76 


Explanation - Mr. Blackwell 77 

Re Movement of Tobacco 77 
Re correspondence - old Age Pensions - Mr. MacLeod 78 

Mr. Drew 78 

i^uestion of Privilege - Mr. Hepburn 79 

Welcome to Five Royal Kaval officers - Mr. Drew 81 

Mr. jolliffe 88 

Resuming the adjourned Debate on the Motion 
for the consideration of the Speech of the 

Hon. the Lieutexiant Governor 82 

Motion to accept - Mr. Margin 82 

Record of Administration 83 

world Wa? 83 

Empire Air Training Scheme 85 

Agriculture 87 

union stock Yards 90 

Labour 91 

Niagara Parks commission 92 

Health 93 

Welfare 95 

Highways 96 

Plaining and Development 98 

Provincial secretary 99 

Motion Seconded - Mr. Scott 101 

Education 101 

Succession Duties 103 

VII - 

Toronto, Ontario, 
Tuesday .February 20, 

Mning 103 

Travel and Publicity Bureau 104 

Game and Fisheries 104 

Tourist Trade 105 

Lands and Forests 106 

Debate Adjourned - Mr. Jolliffe 109 


- VIII - 



Toronto, Ontario, 
Wednesday, February Z\, 

SPEAKER: Honourable williaiji J. Stewart, C.B.E. 


Appointment Mr. Reynolds (Leeds) Chairman Committees 

of Whole House 135 

Introduction of: "Act to Amend the countiliss 

'Reforestation Act'" - Mr. "Kiompson 136 

First Reading 136 

Explanation 137 

Introduction of: "Act to Amend 'Crown Timber Act' " 

Mr. Thompson 136 

Finei Reading 136 

Explanation 136 

Introduction of; "Act Respecting Forest Engineers" 

Mr. Tnompson 137 

First Reading 137 

Explanation 137 

Question of Privilege - Mr. Gruffimett 137 

Q,uestion of Privilege - Mr, Belanger 138 

House in committee 140 

Bill 25: "An Act to Provide for the Voting of 
Active service Voters at a Geijeral 
Election to tl^e Assembly* - Mr. Blackwell 140 
Amendments - Mr. Blackwell 141 


- IX - 

Toronto, Ontario, 
Wednesday, February 21, 


Mr. Jolliffe 144 



Mr. Hepburn (Elgin) 145 

Mr. Laurie r 144 

Mr* Grummett 1^6 

BILL 25 Reported 157 

The House Resumes 157 

BILL NO. 26: «An Act to Amend the Meotfil Hospitals 

Act" - Mr. Vivian 157 

Explanation - Mr. Vivian 158 

SECOND READlNa: - 158 

BILL NO. 27: «An Act to Amend the Children's 

Protection Act" - Mr. Vivian 158 

Explanftion - Mr. Vivia^ 158 


BILL NO. 28: "An Act to Amend the Territorial 

Division Act" - Mr. Thompson 159 

Explanation 159 


BILL NO. 29 : "^ Act t© Amend the Surveys' Act" 

- Mr . Thompson 160 

Explanation 160 


Mr. Murray 160 

Mr. Mitchell 161 

Mr. Thorapscin 161 

Discussion as to Procedure 161 


- X - 



Toronto, Ontario 
Thursday, February 22, 

SPEAKER: Honourable William J. Stewart, C.B.E, 


Personnell of committees: 

Printings and Elections 


Private Bills 

Standing Orders 

Public Accourits 


Municipal Law 

Legal Bills 

Agriculture and Colonization 

Fish and Game 



Introduction of: "Act to Amend Damages by Fumes 

Arbitration Acf - Mr. Frost 169 

Explanation - Mr. Frost 169 

Introduction of: "Act to Amend The Public Works 

Act" - Mr. Doucett 170 

Explanation - Ml" . Doucett 170 

Introduction of : "Act to repeal the political 

Constitutions Act" - ^. 

- Mr. Blackwell 170 

Explanation - Mr. Blackwell 170 

Introduction of: "Act to Amend the Judicature Act" 

- Mr. Blackwell 171 


Welcome to Colonel zabotin - Mr. Drew 171 

Mr. Hepburn (Elgin) 171 

- XI - 

Toronto, Ontario, 
Thursday .February 22, 

Re Family Allowances - Mr. Drew 172 

Re Dominion-Provincial Conference - Mr. Drew 175 

Re Letter Frost to King September 21, 1944 176 

Re Telegram Drew to King February 14, 1945 178 

Reply: Clerk Privy Council to Drew 231 

Re Social Service Agencies - Mr. Drew 180 

Mr. Hepburn (Elgin) 181 

Mr. MacLeod 191 

Resuming the Adjourned Debate on the Motion for 
the Consideration of the Speech of the Hon, the 

Lieutenant Governor 193 

Mr. Jo 11 if fe 1^3 

World conditions 1 year ago 194 

Responsibility of Governments 196 

Re policy of Government 198 

Re Family Allowances 199 
Re Attitude of Opposition to 

Government 201 

Twenty -Two Points - General 202 
1st of 22 Points re British 

Institutions, etc., 203 
2nd of 22 Points re co-operation 

with Dominion 207 
3rd of 22 Points re Legislative 

Support of Industry 209 

4th of 22 Points re Agriculture 212 

Labour 218 

Mines 222 
Forest Resources 

Commission 225 
8th of 22 Points re Ontario Housing 

commission 227 

Discussion re procedure - Mr. Drew 227 

- Mr.jolliffe 228 

















- XII - 



Friday, February 23,1945, 

SPEAKER: Honourable William J. Stewart, C.B.B. 


Introduction of: "Act to Amend the Municipal Act" 

- Mr. Bennett 230 

Explanation 230 


Introduction of: "Act to Amend the Public 

Utilities Act" - Mr,., qonuor 231 

Explanation 231 


Dominion-Provincial Conference 231 

Letter - Clerk Privy Couincil to Mr. Drew 230 

Celebration 100th anniversaly Founding Order of 

Grey Nuns of the Cross - Mr. Belanger 232 

House adjourned in matter of urgent public 


Re Family Allowances 

Re Workmen's Compensation - 
Re Arthur Me Ian con 






Sa Isberg 









Hepburn (Elgin) 









L.G. Robinson 

(Waterloo South) 


Miss Macphail 












. Luckock 




2 71 








- XIII - 



■ fkDTOiito, On'tario, 
.Monday, February 26, 1945 . 

SPEAKER: Honourable William J. Stewart, G.B.E. 



The, corporation of the City of Peterborough 


The Corporation of the City of London 


The corporation of the Township of Stamford 


Labour Legislatioxj: (Questions re - Mr. salsberg 

2 96 

S9 7 

Mr. Drew 


Introduction -of : "The Securities' Act - 1945" 

- Mr. Blackwell 


Explanation .'. Mr. Blackwell 




Re Thos. H.:Hogg, Director, 
Executor Company - 

Chartered Trust and 
Mr. Jolliffa 

Introduction of: "Act Respecting prospecting Syndicat 
Having a Capital Not jBxceeding |10,000." -Mr. Blackwe 
Explanation - Mr. Blackwell 

House adjourned -to discuss matter of Public Importanc 

Re Family Allowances 









. Jolliffe 


Grummet t 

Paymaster Disaster 

Persoxinel of Investigatiiig 


The House Resumes 

BILL NO. 25: "Act to Provide for Voting of Active 
Service Voters at a general election to the Assembly" 

Mr. Blackwell • 



11 303 

• 303 



- XIV - 

Toronto, Ontario, 

Monday, February 26, 1945. 

House in Committee 327 
BILL NO. 26: "Act to Amend Mental Hospitals Act" 

- Mr. Vivian 32 7 
Bill Reported 327 
BILL ISO. 27: "Act to Amend the Children's Protection 
Act" - Mr. Vivian ' 32 7 

- Mr. Dennison 327 

Mr. Vivian 328 


Mr. jolliffe 329 

Bill Reported 329 
BILL NC. 28: "Act to Amend the Territorial Districts 

Act" - Mr. Thompson 330 

Explanation - Mr. Thompson 330 

Bill Reported 330 

BILL NO. 29: "Act to Amend the Surveys Act" 

- Mr. Thompson ^ 330 
Bill Reported ' 331 
The House Resumes 

BILL NO. 30: "The Voters' List Act - 1945" 

- Mr. Blackwell 331 
Explanation Mr. Blackwell 331 



Mr. Jollifre 332 



Mr. Denniisfrn 333 


BILL NO. 31: "The Election Act - 1945" 341 

Bill Stands 342 

BILL NO. 32: "Act to Amend the Counties' Reforestation 
Act**,.- Mr. Thompson . 342 

Explanation - Mr. Thompson 342 

Mr. Dennison 343 

Mr. Dunbar 343 

Mrs. Luckock 343 


BILL I-JU. 33: "An Act ''to Amend theCrown Timber Act" 

- Mr'. Thompson 344 
Explanation - Mr. Thompson . 344 


Mr. Murray 344 

Mr. Hunt 347 

Mr. Smith 348 


BILL'NO'. 34: "Act Respecting Forest Enginiers* 

- Mr'i Thompson 350 
Explanation - Mr. Thompson 350. 

Mr . Harvey 350 

- XV - 


Toronto, Ontario, 
Monday, February 26, 1945, 


























- XVI - 



Toronto, Ontario, 
Tuesday, Fftbruary 27,1945 

SPEAKER: Honourable William J. Stewart, C.B.E. 



corporation of Township of Stamford 380 

Ontario Music Teacheirs' Association 380 

• let Report - Committee on Stauding Orders 380 
Final Report - Committee re Development and 

Processing Lignite Deposits in Ontario 383 

Introduction of; "Act Respecting City of St. Thomas" 

- Mr. Hepburn (Elgin) 393 

Introduction of:"A0t Respecting city of Ottawa 

Separate School Board" - Mr. Laurier 394 

Introduction of: "Act Respecting City of Welland" 

- Mr. Brown 394 
Introduction of: "Act Respecting Evangelical Lutheran 
Seminary of Canada" - Mr. Cook 394 

Introduction of: "Act Respecting Synod of the Diocese 

of Niagara " - Mr. Robeits ' 394 


Introduction of: "Act Respecting the City of Woodstock" 

- Mr. Dent 394 
Introduction of: "Act Respecting the Town of Barrie" 

- Mr. McDonald 394 

- XVII - 

Toronto, Ontario, 
Tuesday , February 27,1945. 

Introduction of: "Act to Amend the Municipal Act" 

- Mr. Belemger 
Explanation - Mr. Belanger 

Re incorporation of Social Clubs - Mr. Belanger 

Mr. Dunbar 

BILL NO. 26: "Act to Amend Mental Hospitals Act" 

- Mr . Vivian * 

BILL NO. 27: "Act to Amend the Children's Protection 

Act" - Mr, Vivian 


BILL NO. 28; "Act to Amend the Territorial Districts 

Act" - Mr. Thompson 


BILL NO. 29: "Act to Amend the Surveys' Act" 

- Mr . Thompson 

BILLS NO. 25 to 29 INCLUSIVE assented to by His 
Honour the Lieutenant Governor 
Resuming the Adjourned Debate on the Motion 
the Consideration of the Speech of the Hon. 
Lieutenant Governor 

8th of 22 points re Housing commission -Mr. Jolliffe 
9th of 22 Points re Reduction in Real Estate 

10th of 22 Points re Education 
11th of 22 Points re Medical, Dental and Health 

Care for Children 
Post war Plans 
Hydro Electric 
Beclamation of Land 
Eliminating Duplication, of Taxes 
Civil Service - 
Rights of Citizens 
Mothers' Allowance - Old Age 

Fuel, Milk, etc. 
Priority of Employment for 
Armed Services 

Protection for Ex-Service Men 
Social Security 



15 th 
17 th 

20 th 





Po in t s 
Po in t s 
Po in ts 









Po in t s 

Dominion Provincial Conference 
Re Education 
Re Agriculture 
Re Labour Legislation 

Re Dissatisfaction with Government's Actions 
Re amendment to Motion re Speech from the x^irone 

Mr . Drew 
Re Minority Government 
Re alleged arrogaiice 









42 7 



- XVIII - 

Toronto, Ontario, 
Tuesday, February 27,1945 

Re War-Time Election 452 

Re National Unity 453 

Re Civil Service 454 

Re Inter-provixicial co-operation 456 

Re Labour Progressive advertisements 457 

Re Dominion-Provincial Conference ^ 466 


- kjx - 




Toronto, Ontario 
Wednesday, February S, 

19 45. 

SPEAKER: Honourable William J. Stewart, C.B.E. 

I W D E X 


of Branch 51 Canadian Legion, B.E.S.L. 475 

of Ontario Music Teachers' Association ^ 475 

Acceptance of Amendment - Mr. Speaker 475 

Re committee on Labour Relations - Mr. Drew 476 

Mr. Salsberg 478 

■'■ Mr. Williams 479 


Mr. Salsberg 481 

Mr . Hepburn 491 

Mr, Daley 493 

R* Laboiar Relations Board - Mr. Williams 50 5 

Mr. Frost 509 

Mr. Alles 516 

>, Mr. Anderson 518 

Mr. L.E.Black'well SO 

Mr. Jolliffe 522 

Mr . Riggs 524 
Introduction of: "Act Respect in g>the Sacred Heart 

College, Sudbury" - Mr. B.H. Carlin 526 


Introduction of: "Bill to Incorporate the Kingsmere 

Club - Mr. Mitchell 526 

Explanation 526 

"Telegram" Editorial re |2,000.00 Sessional indemuiity 

- Mr . MacLeod >■ 526 

Mr.G.D. Mitchell 527 
Re Accident at Paymaster Mine - Toronto Daily Star, 

February 2 7th, 1945 - Mr'. A. William* 527 

- XX - 

Toronto, Ontario, 
Wednesday, February 28,1945. 

investigation at Paymaster Mine - Mr. Frost 530 

Mr. MacLeod 536 

Mr, Roberts 538 


- XXI - 



Toronto, Ontario 
Thursday, March 1, 194 5, 

SPEAKER: Honourable William J. Stewart, C.B.E. 



of Branch 51 Canadian Legion B.B.S.L. 550 
Introduption of: "An Act to Amend the Public Health 

Act" - Mr. Vivian 550 

Explanation - Mr. Vivian 550 

Introduction of: "Act Begarding Housing standards" 

- Mr. Dennison 551 

Explanation 551 


"Canadian Tribune" March 3rd^ 1945T-Mr. Anderson 552 

Mr .W. Dennison 553 

Mr. Belanger 555 

Mr. F.W. warren 556 

Re Pay for Cbani-ng Staff - Mr. Salsberg 557 

The House in Committee 560 

Re Bill NO. 30: The Voters* Lists Act, 1945. 560 
Re BILL NO. 32: "An Act to Amend the County's 

Reforestation Act" ' 575 

BILL NO. 32 Reported 576 
Re BILL NO . 33: "An Act to Amend the Crown Timber 

Act" 576 

Bill Reporte^l 578 
Ite Bill No. 36: "An Act to Amend the Public Works 

Act" - Mr. Doucett 578 

The House Resumed 578 
BILL NO. 31; "The Eleetion Act, 1945" 

Mr. Blackwell 579 

Mr. Roberts 578 - A 

- XXII - 

Toronto, Ontario, 
Thursday, March 1,1945. 

Mr. aE. Leavens 591 

Mr. Riggs 595 

Mr. Nixon 595 

Mrs. Luckock 597 

Mr. Casselman 597 

Mr. Blackwell 597 

Mr. Hancock 599 

Re BILL NO. 37: "An Act to Repeal the political 

Contributions Act" - Mr. Blackwell ' 600 


Re BILL NO. 31: "Aii Act to Amend the Judicature Act" 

- Mr. Blackwell 601 
Re BILL NO. 42: "An Act Respecting Prospecting 
Syndicates Having a capital Not Exceeding 110,000.00" 

- Mr. Blackwell ^01 
Resuming adjourned debate on the Amendment to the 

Motion for the Consideration of the Speech of the 

Honourable Lieutenant Governor Mr. Drew 60 2 

Re Post-war standards 603 

Re Canadian Exports 603 

Re Scientific Research 604 


- XXIII - 



Toronto, Ontario, 
Friday, March 2,1945 

SPEAKER: Honourable William J. Stewart, C.B.3. 


Introduction of: "An Act to Amend ttB Public Hospital 

Act" - Mr. Vivian 630 

E:?)lanation - Mr. Vivian 630 


Introduction of: "An Act to Amend the Workmen's 

Compensation Act" - Mr. Daley 631 

Explanation - Mr. Daley 631 


Re Report of commission of Agricultural inquiry 

Mr. Jolliffe 632 

Mr. Drew 633 
Re Glove and Mail 3/2/45 - re "Hydro Alleged 

Financing Unions" - Mr. Salsberg 633 

Mr. Challies 63§ 

Re BILL NC . 52: "An Act to Amend the Counties* Re- 
forestation Act" - Mr. Thompson 637 

Re BILL NO. 23: "An Act to Amend the Crown Timber Act" 

- Mr. Thompson 638 

Re BILL NO. 36: fAn Act to Amend the Public Works' Act" 

- Mr. Doucett 638 

Hous* in Committee v 

Re: "An Act Respecting Forest Engineers" - Mr. Thompson 658 



- XXIV - 

Toroiito, Ontario, 
Friday, March 2,1945. 

The Bill Stands 

Ret "The Election Act" - Mr. 
Amendmeiit thereto 

Section 16 Stands 

Re: Lowering Age of (Qualification 

Section 17 Stands 
















































L.G.Robin son 

(Waterloo South) 



Murdo ch 











The House Resumes 



- XXV - 



Toronto, Ontario, 
Monday, March 5, 1945. 

SPE^iKEH: Honourable William J. Stewart, G.B.E. 



Of the Corporation of the Town of Paris 680 

Of the Corporation of the Township of Teck 680 

Re "An ^ct to amend the Municipal House Services Act, 

1944" - Mr. Dennison 680 

Explanation-Mr. Dennison 681 

First Heading 681 

Re "An Act to apiend the Marriage Act" — Mr. Strange 681 

Explanation Mr. Strange 681 

First Reading 681 


Return re governmental employees - Mr. Dunbar 682 

iieturn re Fire Insurance Mr. Dunbar 682 

Report - Liquor Control Board - 

year ended March 31,1*44 Mr. Dunbar 682. 
24th xinnual Report - Public Service Superannuation 

Board for year cnaed March 31,1944 Mr. Dunbar 682 
Report of Board of Governors University of 

Toronto - Mr. Dunbar 682 

Oruers in Council under Guarantee Cdfapanies 
Security Act and Section 70 of Judicature 

ACt - - Mr. Dunbar 682 

Orders in Council pertaining to Department 

of Education - Mr. Dunbar 682 

Re VJornen waitresses in Beer Parlors - Mr. Alles 602. 

Re Discharged Workmen - Mr. Mitchell 682 

- Mr. Daley 685 
Re Discrimini^tion in Beer Supplies - Mr. Riggs 684 

- Mr. Webster 685 
Re Return to House of Hon. Mr. Kennedy- Mr. Jolliffe 687 

- Mr. BlBftkwell 687 
- Mr. Hepburn (Elgin) 687 

- Mr. MacLeod 688 

- Mr. Kennedy 688 

- XXVI - 

Toronto, Ontario 
Monday, March 5, 194 5 

H© Bill Number 41 "Tlie Securities Aet 1945 - 

Mr. Blackwell 688 

Explanation - Mr. Blacicwell 688 

Report of Mining Commission 699 

flecommendations 699 

Brokers Eegistered 703 

Tiie Bill Stands 723 



- XXVII - 


f ' ' ' ■' ' ■ ' I I . ■ I T «i I I 


Toronto, Ontario, 
Tuesday, Mjarch 6, 19 45. 

SPEAKER! Honourable William J. Stewart, C.B.E. 



1st report by committee on private Bille 740 

2nd report by Committee on Standing Orders 741 
Introduction of* "Act to Amend the Hours of work and 

Vacations with Pay Act, 1944 '^ - Mr. Williams 742 

Explanation 742 

introduction of: "Act Respecting The Royal Ottawa 

Sanitorlum" - Mr. Laurier 743 

Introduction of: "Act Respecting the Township of 

CrOwland" - Mr. Brown 743 

Introduction of: "Act to Amend the venereal Diseaises' 

Prevention Act - 194E" - Mr. Strange 743 

Introduction of: "An Act Respecting the Canadian Legion 

of the B.E.S. L. Branch 51" - Mr. Overall 743 

Explanation _ 743 

Introduction of: "Act Respecting the City of Peterborough" 

- Mr. Scott 744 

Introduction of: "An Act Respecting the City of port 

Arthur" - Mr. F.O. Robinson 744 

Introduction of: "An Act to Araer.d the Public Health 

Act" - Mr. Dennison 744 

Explanation 744 



Toronto, Ontario, 
Tuesday, March 6, 1945. 

introduction of: "Act to Amend the Public Health Act" 

- Mr. F.O. Robinson 745 

Explanation 745 


Introduction of : "An Act Respecting the City of 

Kingston" - Mr. H.A. Stewart 745 


Introduction of: "An Act Respecting Peterborough 

Civic Hospital" - Mr. Sa> tt 746 


Introduction of: "An Act Respecting the Village of 

Swansea" - Mr. Millard 746 


Re Public Works Employees 

Mr. Doucett 747 

Mr. Daley 748 
Resuming adjourned debate on the Amendment to the 
Motion for the Coiisideration of the Speech of the 

Honourable Lieutenant Governor - Mr. Drew 748 

Re British Institutions 749 

Re Government's Present Position 750 

Re Dominion-Provincial conferen-ce 753 

Re Readjustment of Taxing Power 757 

Re Immigration 757 

Re Air Transportation 759 

Re Educational Program 760 

Re Educational Grants 761 

Re Re-orgaxiization of Department 763 

Re Director of Guidance 764 

Re institute of Mining 765 

Re Director of physical an.d Health Education 765 

Re cadet Training 765 

Re Religious Education 767 

Re Ontario House 770 

Mr. M.F. Hepburn - (Elgin) • 776 

Re Remarks of Move of Motion 776 

Re Australian Situation ■ -^ 783 

Re Natioual Unity 784 

Re Relief Delegation 785 

Re Kirkland Lake Strike 787 

Re Sirois Report 790 

Re Collective Bargaining 791 

Re Ontario House 791 

Re Immigration -'''"^ 792 

Re Address - Hon. Mr. Drew, August 9th, 194 4 797 

Re Religious Education in Schools 798 

Re Optometry Act 799 

Re Sub Amendment to Amendment to Motion 802 


- I 

- XXIX - 



Toronto, Ontario, 
Wednesday, March 7, 1945, 

SPEAKER: Honourable William J. Stewart, C.B.E, 


Motion to Kesolve House into Comiaittee of Supply 

Mr. Fro&t - 806 

Explanation - Mr. Frost 806 

- Ut* Jolliffe 807 

- Mr. Hepburn! Elgin) 807 

- Mr, Drew 808 
The Motion being put, the Houee divided 809 

Introduction of: "An Act to Authorize the Appointment 

of an Ontario Fuel Commission" - Mr. Dennison 812 

Explanation - Mr. Dennison 812 

- Mr. Nixon 812 

Introduction of: "An ACt Respecting the Ontario 

Music Teachers' Association" - Mr. Martin 812 


Introduction of :"An Act to Amend the Municipal 

xiCt" - Mr. Anderson 813 

Explanation - Mr. Anderson 813 


Introduction of: "An Act to Amend the ijog Tax 

and Live Stock Protection ACt" - Mr. Doucett 813 

1Expi«na^ifcc«u - Mr. Doucett 814 

- Mr. Mitchell 814 

Introduction of: "An ACt to Authorize the Corporation 
of the City of Toronto to Plan and Zone the 

Municipality" - Mr. Roberts 813 


- XXX 

Toronto, Onljario, 
Wednesday, l\iarch 7, 1945. 

Introduction of; 
Introduction of: 
Labour xict" 
Introduction of: 

Introduction of: 


"An Act Respecting the City of 

- Mr. Roberts 

"An Act to Amend the Statute 

- l&Tt Douc«tt 

"An Act to Confirm Tax Sales" 

- Mi". Dunbar 

"An Act to Amend the Bees Act" 

- Mr. Doucett 

- Mr. Doucett 

Re Legality of Motion re Budget - 

Re Votes and Proceedings - 1943 
Re Votes ana Proceedings - 1942 

- Mr. Hepburn 

- Mr. Jolliffe 

- Mr. Belanger 

- Mr. MacLeod 

- Mr. Jolliffe 

- Mr. Drew 

- Mr. Hepburn 

- Mr. Belanger 

- Mr .Thornberry 

- MTt Salsberg 

- Ut , Hepburn 

- Mr. Mitchell 

- Mr. Grummett 

- Mr. Overall 
Ruling on Motion - Mr. Speaker 
Appeal From Ruling - Mr. Hepburn 
The Motion on the Appearl being put the Ho^se Divided 
Resuming adjourned debate on Motion for Second 
Reading of BILL NO. 41 "The Securities Act - 1945" 

- Mr. Blackwell 

- Mr. Jolliffe 

Motion to refer Bill to Coramittie on Legal Bills - 

- Mr. Jolliffe 

- Mr. Blackwell 

- Mr. Acres 

~ Mr. Blackwell 
The Bill Stands 












- XXXI - 



Toronto, Ontario, 
Thursday, March 6, 1945. 

SPEAKER: Honourable William J. Stewart, C.B.E. 


Introduction of: "An Act to Amend the Optometry Act" 

- Mr. Hepburn (Elgin) 879 

Explanation - Mr. Hepburn (Elgin) 879 


introduction of "An Act to Enable Municipalities to 
Establish Community Planning »d Housing Authorities' 
- Mr . Warren 


Introduction of: "An Act to 
Engineers' Act" - Mr. Scott 
Explanation - Mr. Scott 

Amend the Professional 


Introduction of : "An Act to Provide for the Relief 
of Persons who have Substantial Impairment by Illness 
or Unemployment or any other Cause Beyond their control 
with Respect to Their Homes " - Mr . warren 881 

Motion Stands 881 

Introduction of : "An Act to Amend the Public Trustees 

Act" - Mr. Blackwell 881 

Explanation - Mr. Blackwell ' 881 


Introduction of 
- Mr . Frost 

"An Act to Amend the Mining Act" 



- XXXII - 

Toronto, Ontario, 
Thursday, March 8, 1945. 

Introduction of: "An Act to Amend the Evidence Act" 

- Mr. Blackwell 882 


Re Fire in Parliament Buildings - Mr. Doucett 882 

■Motion to Adjourn on Matter of Urgency - Mr. jolliffe 883 

Re Labour Relations Board - Mr. Jolliffe 883 

Mr. Daley 889 

Mr. salsberg 901 

Mr. Millard 908 

Mr. Leavens 913 

Mr. Qarlin 914 

Mr. Blackwell 915 

Mr. Hepburn (Elgin) 918 

Mr. Williams 918 

Mr. Drew 927 

Resuming Adjourned Debate on the Sub Amendment to the 

Amendment to the Motion for the Consideration of the 

Spftech of the Honourable Lieutenant Governor 929 

Mr. MacLeod 929 

Re Fire in parliament Building 929 

Re Minister of Planning and Development -Mr .Porter 930 

Re Minister without Portfolio - Mr. Webster 930 

Re Congratulations to Move and Seconder 931 

Re Changes in war Situation 933 

Re World Trade Union Conference 935 

Re Extracts from Canadian Forum 9 36 

Re Post-war Markets 941 

Re New Zealand socialism 94£ 

Re Regina Speech by Mr. Jolliffe 947 

Re Legislative Situation in Ontario - 1944 949 

Debate Adjourned 952 



■Willi ■! ■ !■»■ II ■III M Mi ■■■ll^— .— I !■■ I ll»^^r— — ■ 1— I ■ — r^^^i , I I I— M,.MI^M ■ .M. II M M, |i| M , MIIIIIIB I IIIIMI» 


Toronto, Ontario 
Friday, Maj:ch 9, 194 5. 

SPEAKER: Honourable William J. Stewart, C.B.E. 


House in Committee of Supply 

BUDGET - Hon. Mr. Frost (Provincial Treasurer) 953 

He Dominion Provincial Relations 954 

Re Details Tax Burden Shift • 957 

-"tfte Education - Grants for 957 

Re Powers of Province to raise money 962 

Re Change in Real Estate Taxation 962 

Re Conservation and Flood Control 964 

Re Hydro Developments 965 

Re Servicing Public Debt 965 

Statement - Funded Debt 968 

Public Financing 969 

Business for Year ended torch 31 972 

Province of Ontario savings Offices 973 

Highway 973 

^igricultural Loans 974 

Ordinary Expenditure 975 

Statement of Ordiaary Revenue 977 


Statement of Summary 979 


Statement of Capital Receipts 981 


Statement of Capital Payments 983 

Statement of Estimated Decrease in Gross Debt 984 

Statement of Contingent Liabilities 985 

Statement of Estimated Decrease Net Debt 986 

flays ana Means 987 

Budget Forecast - Revenue 990 

- Ordinary Expeditures 991 

- capital Receipts 992 

- Capital Payments 993 

- XXXIV - 

Toronto, Ontario, 
Friday, March 9, 1945. 

Summary - Estimated 

Summary of Salient F 

Ordinary Net Hevenuo 

of Agriculture 

of Game and Fisheries 

of Health -and Welfare 

of Labour ' 

of Mines 

of Lands and Forests 
trie Power Commission 

of Municipal Affairs 

of Education 
eatures of Budget 




- XXXV - 

B I "Q H T E E N T H p A Y 

Toronto, Ontario, 
Monday, March 12, 1945, 

SPEAKER: Honourable William j. Stewart, C.B.E. 


Introduction of: '♦An Act to Amend the Nurses' 
Registration Act" - Mr. Vivian 

Introduction of : "An Act to Provide Relief for 
Persons who have Suffered Substantial Impairment of 
Income Owing to Unemployment or Any Other cause 
Beyond Their Control in Respect to Their Homes " 
- Mr. warren 

Introduction of: "An 
Diseases' Prevention 

Act to Amend the Venereal 
Act" - Mr, Vivian 

Introduction of: "An Act to Amend the Hours of work 
and vacations with Pay Act - 1944" - Mr. Daley 

Introduction of : "An Act to Amend the Mddipal Act" 
- Mr. Vivian 




100 5 


Introduction of: "Axi Act to Provide Financial 
Protection for Persons who Have Suffered Substantial 
Impairment of Income Owing to Illness, Unemployment 
or Other Cause Beyond Their Control" - B4r. warren 10C6 
Explanation 1006 


'■^ioiJAoa 1^: Si! 

- XXXVI - 

Toronto, Ontario, 
Monday, March IE, 


Introduction of: 
Act" - Mr. Daley 

"An Act to Amend the Minimum Vage 

welcome to 

Re Labour 
He Employe 
Mr. Mi 
Tabling of 
25, 26, au 
Tabling of 
Tabling of 

Delegation French Underground 

Mr. Drew 
Mr. Jolliffe 
conditions - Oshawa- Mr. Williams 

es' Lay Off Plant on Lake Front 
t Che 11 

Replies to Questions 1,6,10,14, 24, 
d 27 - - Mr. Drew 

Correspondence - Provincial and Dominion 
's re Old Age pensions - Mr. Drew 

Interim Report of Agricultural 

of Inquiry - Mr. Drew 

House in Committee 
Re BILL NO. 31 - "The 







Amendment Sub-Section 6 


Election Act" 


Mr. Blackwell 















Mr. jolliffe 











Mr. Dennison 



Mr. Grummet t 



6 Mr. Murphy 



Mr. Casselman 



Toronto, Ontario, 
Monday, March 12, 1945. 

Mr . Dunbar 


Mr. Strange 


Mr. Nixon 


Mr. Roberts 



Mr. Salsberg 


Mr. Leavens 


Mr. Mitchell 


Miss Macphail 


Amendment Sub-Section 1 

Section 292 


Mr. Blackwell 



Mrs. Luckock 



Mr . Cook ti 


Bill Reported 


House in Committee on BILL MO. 37: "An Act to Repeal 

the Political Contributions Act" < 1051 

House in committee on BILL NO. 38: "An Act to Amend 

the Judicature Act". 1051 

The House Resiimed 1052 
BILL NO. 42: "An Act Respecting Prospecting Syndicates 
Having a Capital Not Exceeding ^10,000.00" - 

Mr. Blackwell 1052 


BILL NO. 63: "An Act to Amend the Public Trustees 

Act" - Mr. Blackwell lQ5fe 

Mr. Blackwell 1053 

Mr. Williams 1053 

Mr. jolliffe 1054 


BILL NO. 65: "An Act to Amend the Public Health Act" 

- Mr. Vivian 1056 

Mr. Vivian 1056 

Mr. Mitchell 1059 

Mr . Dennison 1060 







Toronto, Ontario, 
Tuesday, March 13, 1945. 


Honourable William J. Stewart, C.B.E. 


Second Report Standing Committee on Miscellaneous 
Private Bills 

Final Report - Standing Committee on Standing Orders 

Introduction of: "An iict to Amend the Liquor 
Authorities Control Act" 1944 - Mr. Blackwell 



Introduction of: 

Introduction of: 
of Teck" 
Introduction of: 
Improvement Act" 
Introduction of: 
of Stamford 
Introduction of: 

"An ACt Respecting the Town of 

- Mr. Nixon 

"An ACt Respecting the Township 

- Mto GruLmett 

"An Act to Amend the Highways 

- Mr. Doucett 

"An AQt Respecting the Township 

- Mr. Overall 

"An Act Respecting the City of 

- Mr. Patrick 

Resuming Adjourned Debate on the Sub-Amen-dment to 
the Amendment to the M otion for the Consideration 
of the speech of the Honourable Lieutenant Governor 

Mr. MacLeod: 

In Re 1944 Session 

Re Family Allowances 

Extract from Public Statement August 13, 1944 







- iXXIX - 

Toronto, Ontario, 
Tuesday, March 13, 1945, 

Globe and Mail re Mr. Gar son 
Globe and Mail re Dr. Silcox 
He Ke-inforcements 
i^e Eeucation 
He "fied Bogey" 

- Mr,. Dr-ejg 
-Magistrate Jones 
-J. B. Priestly 

- Mr. Jolliffe 
-Mr. Hepburn 

Re Unfulfilled Promises 
Re Amendment 
Re Sub -Amendment 
Re Religious Education 
He Immigration 

Re Want of Confidence Motion 
Re Election in Grey North 

Re Kirkland Lake and other Lab.pur Disputes 
Re Labour experiences 
Re conservative War Record 1914-].918 
Re War Time Election 

Re Mr. MacLeod's suggested "14 points" for 
Alternative Government 

Hon. R.P.Vivian (Minister of Health) 
Re Health Services 
Re Specialized Health Services 
Re Saskatchewan Health Services Act 
Re Complete Health Prograiane 

Five Points of: 

For School Ghilaren 

Regional Services 

Health Education 

Industrial Hygiene 

Medical Care 

Cash Indemnities 
Re Health Undertakings of Administration 
Re Sanitoria 






- XL - 


Toronto, Ontario, 
Tuesday, March 13, 1945, 

SPEAKER: Honourable William J. Stewart, C.B.E, 


Resuming adjourned Debate on the Sub-Amendment to 
the Amdndment to the Motion for the Consideration 
of theSpeech of the Honourable Lieutenant Governor 

Mr. Millard 1122 

He V/orld Trade Union Conference 1123 

Re Conditions in Holland and Belgium 1132 

Re Visit to Canadian Troops 1136 

Re Ontario House 1142 

Re "Everybody's Weekly--9/30/44»» 1144 

Re "Prospective Citizenship in Ontario" 1149 

Reply by - Mr. Drew 1155 

Re Remarks by Hono Mr. Porter 1162 

Re Patronage 1165 

Re "Christian Period" 1168 

Re Empiire Parliamentary Association" 1171 

Mr. Duff 1173 

Re Congratulations to Mover and Seconder , 1173 

Re Bruce County 1173 

Re Post-war Planning 1174 

Re Re-establishment of Returned Service Men 1175 

Re Electric Power - Bruce County 1177 

Re Reforestation 1178 

Re Stock yards , 1180 

Re Livestock 1181 

Re Ontario Agricultural College 1182 

Mr. Alles - 1184 

Re Labour 1184 

Re Recammendations Canadian Congress ot Labour 1186 


- XLI - 



Toronto, Ontario, 
Weiinesday, March 14, 1945, 

SPEAKER: Honourable William J. atewart, C.B.E. 


Reports: - Mr. Frost 

Re BILL W. 41. "The Securities Act" 1945 

Be BILL WO. 42. "An Act Respecting Prospecting 

Syndicates Having capital wot Exceeding |35,000. 

Introduction of : "An 
Subsidy Act - 1945 " 

Act Intituled Sugar Beet 
- Mr. Doucett 
Mr. Doucett 




Introduction of : "An Act to Amend the Fire Department 

Act" - Mr. Blackwell 1192 

Explanations - Mr. Blackwell 119» 


Re Tax Collectors' Bonds - 
Letter Robinson to McMannus 

Mr. Hepburn 

Mr. Doucett 
Mr. Jolliffe 
Mr. Drew 
Motion to Resolve House into Committee of Supply 

Mr. Frost 
Mr. Hepburn 

Mr . Drew 
Mr. Jolliffe 









- XLII - 


The Motion Being Put the 

Ml* . Fro St 
Mr. Drew 
House Divided 

House in Committee 

He Supplementary Estimates 



Mr* Frost 

Mr. L.G. Robinson 

(Waterloo South) 
Mr. Brown 
Mr. Jolliffe 

Mr. Taylor (Temiskinming) 

Mr * Dunbar 

Mr. Hepburn (Elgin) 

Mr. ^nnett 
Mr. MacLeod 
Mr. Millard 
Mr. Salsberg 
Mr. Williams 
Mr . Acres 
Mr. Nixon 




12 66 
123 7 

The committee Recessed 


- XLIII - 




Toronto, Ontario, 
Wednesday, March 14, 1941 

SPEAKER: Honourable William J. Stewart, C.B.E, 


The Committee Resumes 12'?5 

Mr. F.O. Robinson (Port Arthur) 1275 
Mr. Grummett 1276 

Mr. Hig^gs 1278 

Mr. Frost 1279 




Mrs. Luckock 1281 

Mr. Bennett 1284 

Mr. Joliiffe 1285 

Mr. Webster ' 1285 

Mr. Dunbar 15,92 

Mr. B]ackwell 1295 

Mr. Alles 1299 

Mr. Millard 1301 

Estimate agreed to 1308 

Resuming the Adjourned Debate on the -Sub-xoaendment to 

the Amendment to the Motion for the consideration 

of the speech of the Honourable Lieutenant Governor 1308 

Mr. Roberts ^308 

Re Prime Minister Aadress 1308 

He Go-operation 1309 

Re Hon. Member for Elgin (Mr. Hepburn) 1310 

Re Family Allowances ' 1318 

Re Provincial Unity 1323 

Re Mining Industry 1325 



Toronto, Ontario 
Wednesday, March 14, 194 5. 

Re Canadian Army Status 1333 

Re Sub-Amendment 1334 

Re Religiia^i Education in Schools 1334 

Regulation 22 of General Regulations 1336 

Re Canadian Troops Overseas 1338 

Miss Agnes Macphail: 1340 

Re Stock Yards 1340 

He Facilities in Parliament Buildings 1342 

Re Sessional Stenogra fliers' Quarters 1344 

Re "ansard Reports* Quarters 1344 

Re Suggestions for improving facilities 1346 

Re Lengthening Session 1348 

Re Legislative Library 1349 

Re Facilities for the Aged 1350 
Re Society of Housing Managers in Great Britain 1352 

Re Sweden's Care of the Aged 1356 

Re Housing Programme 1358 

Re Russia's Care of the Aged 1359 


- XLV - 

Toronto, Ontario, 
Thursday, March 15, 1945. 

SPEAKER: Honourable William J. Stewart, C. B. E. 


Introduction of Bills: 


Point of Privilege Re Globe and Mail Editorial 

- Mr. salsberg 
1. Collective Bargaining negotiations re Ford Motor 

2. collective Bargaining negotiations re Gold Mines 

of JiJorthern untario 
3. Collective Bargaining negotiations re Canada Bread 

company , Toron to . 
4. Collective Bargaining negotiations re Canadian 

Westinghouse Company, Hamilton 
5. Collective Bargaining negotiations re Electro 

Metallurgical Company, welland 
6. Collective Bargaining negotiations re Halifax Ship 

Yard s 
7. Collective Bargaining negotiations re Imperial 

Optical Company 

Report of 

Report of 
March 31, 
Report of 
March 31, 
Beport of 
Report of 
M»rch 31, 

Department of Labour, ending March 31,1944 

G.H. Dunbar 
Department of Public Works, ending 
1944. - G.H. Dunbar 

Prisons and Reformatories ending 
1944. - G.H. Dunbar 

Distribution of Sessional Statutes of 
1944. - G.H. Dunbar 

Ontario Training Schools, ending 
1944. - G.H. Dunbar 

13 68 



- XLVI - 

Toronto, Ontario, 
Tliursday, March 15, 1945* 

Report of Receipts and Disbursements of Royal Ontario 
Museum ending June 30th, 1944riS.H. Dunbar 1376 

H«suming Adjourned Debate on the Sub-Amexidment to the 
Amendment to the Motion for the consideration of the 
Speech of the Honourable Lieutenant Governor 

Mr. Ross A. McEwing (Wellington North) -- 
Re Dismissal of civil Servants 
Re Agriculture 
Re Point No. 4 of 2E-Point Programme - Agricultural 

Re Stock Yards and Markets 
Re Adequate supply of fuel, milk, and other 

Re Lands and Forests 
He Post-war Farm Labour and Industry 

Mr. Leslie Hancock (Wellington South) 

Re Welfare and Social servicea 

Re Education and Religion in Schools 

Re Planning and Development 

Re Agriculture 

Re Labour 

Re Hon. Prime Minister's Address at Speaker's 

Re Division of (Opposition 

Hon, Charles Daley (Minister of Labour) 

Re Leader of Opposition's Speech - Mr. Jolliffe 

Re Mr. Hepburn's Speech 

Re Communists 

Re Civil Ser^tice 

Re labour Laws and Unions 

Re Small Business Man 





















- XLVII - 





Toronto, Ontario, 
Thursday, March 15, 1945, 

SPEAKER: Honourable William J. Stewart, C.B.E. 


Honourable Charles Daley (Minister of Labour) 

Re Skilled and Unskilled Labour 14 35 

Re Workmen's compensation and Holidays 1438 

Re Trade Unions 1444 

Re Holidays With Pay 1445 

Mr. W.C. Riggs (windsor-waklerville) 1447 

Re Unions 1448 

Re Private Enterprise _ 1449 

Re Ford Motor Company ' 1450 

Re Chemurgy committee 1454 

Re Agriculture 1455 

Mr. R. Hobbs Taylor (Huron) 1460 

Re History of Government 1462 

Re Government Promises and Accomplishments 1463 
Re Attitude of Public to Certain Political parties 1469 

Re question of Political Appointments 1472 

Re Taxation Schemes 1477 

Re Family Allowances 14 80 

Mr. Drew - Re Quotation from Evening Telegram 

Mr. R. Hobbs Taylor 

Re Religious Education in Schools 

Re Immigration 

Re Socialist Schemes 





Toronto, Ontario, 
Thursday, March 15, 1945, 

Mr. F.W. warren (Hamilton-went worth) 

Re Putting Party Above welfare of People 

Re Saskatchewan Government 

Re Department of Banning and Development 

Re Housing 

Re Manual Training in Schools 

Re Upkeep of Schools 

Re 50^ Grant 




- XLIX - 

Toronto, Ontario, 
Friday, March 16, 194 5. 

SPEAKER: Honourable William j. Stewart, C.B.E. 


First Report of Select Committee on Art Expenditures 1510 

Introduction of Bills - First Reading 1512 
point of Privilege Re Gasoline Tax Collections 

- Mr. Doucett 1513 

Correspondence Re Gasoline Tax Collectioiis 1521 

Re Pipe Line 1520. 

Re C.I.L. Strike in Toronto - Mr. Williams (Ontario) 1540 
Re Local 504 of United Electric Radio and Machine 

Workers' Association - Mr. Williams (Ontario) 1542 

House Dissolved into Committee of the whole 1551 

BILL NO ^44 -^ Sexjurities Act - 1945. Mr.Blackwell 1551 


-I - 



Toronto, Ontario, 
I^onday, March 19, 19 45. 

SPEAKER: Honourable William J. Stewart, C.B.E. 


Introduction of Bills 


Re Conversation Between |ilr. Daly and Rt. Hon. 

Mackenzie King - Mr.H«rry c. Nixon 

House Resolved into coouaittee of the whole 



41. Securities Act - 



Sections > 
































Mr. Blaokwell 




BILL NO. 42: "Act Respecting Prospecting Syndiaates" 1618 

BILL NO. 44: "Public Health Act - Sections 1 - 7" 1619 

Section 2 1625 

BILL NO. 63: "Public Trustees Act" Reported 
BILL NO. 65: "Svidence Act" Reported 



- LI - 

Toronto, Ontario » 
Monday, March 19, 1945. 

House Resumed 1631 
BllX 37: "Act to repeal Political Contributions Act" 1632 


BILL NO .38: "Act to Amend Judicature Act" 1632 


BILL NO. 56: "Act to Amend Dog Tax and Livestock 

Protection Act" 1633 


BILL NO. 65: "Act to Amend Mining Act" - Mr. Frost 1634 


BILL NO. 57: "Act to Amend Statute Labours Act" 1636 


BILL NO. 47: "Act to Amend Workmsn's Compensation 

Act" - Mr. Daley 1636 


BILL NO. 58: "Act to Confirm Tax Sales" - 1638 


BILL NO. 59: "Act to Amend Bees Act" - 1639 


BILL NO. 73: "Act to Amend Liquor Authority control 

Act, 1944" 1639 


BILL NO. 46: "Act to Amend Public Hospitals Act" 

• Mr. V).vian 1640 


Discussion Re Principle of Bill No. 46 1642 


- LII - 

THE L £ G I SLA T I V £ A S S E M B L Y 



Toronto, Ontario, 
Monday, March 19, 1945. 

SPEAKER: Honourable filliam J. Stewart, C.B.E. 

I N Q £ X 

BILL NO. 35: "Damage by Fumes Arbitration Act" 

- Mr. Frost 


BILL NO. 66: "Nurses Registration Act" 

- Mr. Vivian 


BILL NO. 68: "Venereal Diseases prevention Act" 

- Mr. Vivian 


BILL NO. 69: "Hours of work and Vacations with Pay 

Act" - Mr. Daley 1669 


- Mr. Williams 

- Mr. Salsberg 


^-:Liir - 

Toronto, Ontario, 
Moudiay, March 19, 19 45. 

BILL NO. 70: "Medical Act" - Mr. Vivian 


BILL NO. 72: '♦Minimum Wage Act" - Mr. Daley 1678 


Mr. Daisy 1678 

Mr. Millard 1679 

Mr. Williams 1681 

Mr. Mitchell 1686 

Mr. aalsberg 1687 
Mr. Robinson 

(Waterloo south) 1691 

Mr. Alles 1692 

Mr. Leavens 1694 

Mr. Riggs 1695 

BILL NO. 74: "Highway Improvement Act" -MrkDOUcett 1696 


BILL NO. 75: "Sugar Beet Subsidy Act" 


BILL NO. 76: "Fire Departments Act" -Mr. BlackWell 1698 


Bill. NO. 78: "Factory, Shop and Office Building Act" 1702 


BILL NO. 79: "Public Vehiclea Act" 

170 2 

BILL NO. 80: "Commercial vehicles Act" 

BILL NO. 82: •♦Trustee Act" Mr. aiackwell 








. 2. "Act Respecting Town of Barrie" 

. 3. "Act Respecting City of we Hand" 

. 6. "Act Respecting City of WQodstoolc" 

. 8. "Act Respecting incorporation Synod of 

Diocese of Niagara" 
. 10. "Act Respecting Evangelical Lutheran 

Seminary of Canada" 
. 11. "Act Respecting City of St. Thomas" 
5."A<5t Respecting City of Peterborough" 
9. "4et Respecting city of Kingston" 
12. "Act Respecting city of Poyt Arthur" 
4. "Act Respecting Royal Ottawa Sanatorium" 
7. "Act Respecting Peterborough Civic 





- LIV - 

Toronto, Ontario, 
Monday, March 19, 1945. 

BILL NO. 13. "Act Respecting City of Ottawa Separate 

School Board 1706 

House in Committee 1706 

BILL NO. 34. "Act Respecting Forest Engineers" 

Section 2 1706 

Mr. Overall 1706 

Mr. Blackwell 1709 

On Section 4. "Act Respecting Forest Engineers" 

Mr. Millard 1712 

On Section 6. "Act Respecting Forest "Engineers" 

Mr .Hepburn (Elgin) 1714 

Mr. Belanger 1720 

On Section 11. "Act Respecting Forest Engineers" 

Mr. Miller 1721 

Bill Reported 1727 

House Resumed 


- LV ^ 



Toronto, Ontario, 
Tuesday, March 20, 19 45, 

SPEAKER: Honourable William J. Stewart, C.B.|S. 


Third Heport of standing committee on Miscellaneous 

pjrivate Bills X729 

Introduction of Bills 


"An Act to Amend Municipal Act" 1730 

"An Act to Amend Minimum Wage Act" 1730 

"An Act to Amend Public Schools Act" 1730 

"An Act to Amend Companies Act," 1731 

"An Act to Amend Separate Schools Act" 1731 
' "An Act to Amend Loan and Trust corporations 

Act". 1732 

"An ACt to Amend Mining Tax ^*ct" 1732 

Sxplani* Ion re "Loan and Trust Corporation Act" 

- Mr. iackirell 1732 
ExplamatlcA re "Mining Tax Act" 

- Mr. Frost 1733 
Mr. Millard on Matter of Public Interest - Strike 

at Sault Ste. Marie 1734 

Mr. Alles - Re Hydro Electric Power commission 1737 
Mr. Hancock - Re Japanese in Ontario 1739 

Resuming adjourned debate on the sub-amendment to the 
amendment to the motion for the consideration of the 
speech of the Honourable Lieutenant Governor 
Mr. F.R- Oliver (Grey South) 1740 

He aahabilitation of Rural Ontario 1741 

Re Agriculture 1745 

Re Stockyards 1749 

- LVI - 

Toronto, Ontario, 
Tuesday, March SD , 1945. 

Re Agricultural Inquiry Commission and Its Report 1753 

Re Marketing 1*^62 

Re Dominion Insurance on Hogs 1767 

Mr. G. Lockhart (Rainy River) 1780 

Hfr Agriculture 1781 

Re Rural Education 1793 

Bis Agricultural commission 1797 

Mr..R.D. Hiornberry (Hamilton Centre) 1805 

Re Socialism 1811 


- LVII - 




Toronto, Ontario, 
Tuesday, March 20, 1945. 

SPEAKER: Honourable William J. Stewart, C.B.E. 


Mr« R.D. Thornberry (Hamilton Centre) 
Re British Institutions 


Mr. J.B. Salsberg (St. Andrew) 
Re Government Employees 
Re Hydro 

Re Labour-Progressive Principles 
^e Communism 
Re Labour 
Re Iriigration 
Re j?; ; cat ion 
Re hdcial Discrimination 

Mr. W.L. Miller (Algoma-Manitoulin) 
Re Mining Industry 
Re Dominion-Provincial Conference 
Re Forest Industry 
Re Highways 

Mr., Arthur Williams (Ontario) 
Re Labour 









Toronto, Ontario. 
Wednesday, March 21, X945. 

SPEAKER: Honourable William J. Stewart, C.B.E. 


Report of Standing Conuaittee on Printing 1893. 

introduction of "An Act to amend the Labour Relations 

Board Act" - Mr. Williams 1895. 

F'^st Reading 1895. 

Introduction of "An Act respecting the purchase of 

cattle with horns" - Mr. Doucett 1895 

First Raading 1895. 

Introduction of "An Act to amend the Workmen's Com- 
pensation Act" - Mr. Williams 1896. 
First Reading 1896. 

Re: ilult Education Board - Mr. Drew 1896. 

Re; 1 3ocurities' Act, 1945 - Mr. fl]ft cicwell 1901. 

Third neauing ' 1901. 

Re: An Act respecting Prospecting Synidcaies with a • 

8 capital not exceeding |35, 000.00 - Mr. Blackwwll 1902. 

Third Reading 1902. 

Re; An Act to amend the Public Trustee's Act" - 

Mr. Blackwell 1902. 

Third Reading 1902. 

Re; An Act to amend the Evidence Act** - Mr. Blackwell, 1902. 

Third Reading 1902. 

R«:An Act respecting Forest Engineers" - Mr. Thompson, 1902. 

Third Reading 1902. 

Re: Withdrawal of An Act Respecting Forest Engineers" 1903. 


House iu Conmittee: 

Bill i\o. 2; "An Act rtapecting the Town of Barrie" - 

Mr. Johnston 1916. 

Bill Reported. 1916. 

B411 No. 3; "An Act respecting the City of Welland" - 

Mr.Browb. 1916. 

Bill Reported. 1916. 

Bill No. 6. "An Act respecting the City of Woodstock" - 

Mr. Dent. 1917. 

Bill Reported. 1917. 

Bill NO. 8: "An Act respecting the Incorporated 

Synod of the Diocese of Niagara, - Mr. 

Roberts, 1917. 

Bill Reported. 1917. 

Bill No. 10. "An Act respecting the Evangelical 

Lutheran Seminary of Canada" - Mr. Cook. 1917. 

Bill Reported. 1917. 

Bill No. 11. •»An Act respecting the City of St. 

Thomas" - Mr. Hepburn (Elgin). 1919. 

Bill Reported. 1919. 

Bill No. 5; "An Act respecting the City of Peter- 
borough" - Mr. Scott 1919, 
Bill Reported. 1919. 

Bix' NO. 9; "AnAct xespecting the City of Kingston" - 

Mr. Stewart ^Kingston) ; 1920. 

Bill reported. 1920. 

Bill No. 12: "An Act respecting the city of Port 

Arthur" - Mr. Robinson (Port Arthur). 1920. 

Bill reportc 1. 1920. 

Bill No. 4: "%! Act respecting the Royal Ottawa 

Sanitorium" - Mr. Laurier. 1920. 

Bill - *port«d. 1920. 

Bill iv^. . " "Afi Act respecting the Peterborough 

Civic Hospital " - Mr . Scott. 1921. 

Mr. Patterson, 1921. 

Mr. Vivian , 1921. 

Bill reported, 1923. 

Bill No. 13; "An Act respecting the Ottawa Separate 

School Board" - Mr. Laurier. 1923. 

Bill reported. 1923. 

Bill No. 44; "An Act to amend the Public Health Act** 

- Mr. Vivian. 1924. 

Bill reported. 1924. 

Bill NO. 64. "An Act to amend the Mining Act" - 

Mr. Frost 1924. 

Bill reported. 1924, 


Bill No. 56: "An Act to amend the Dog Tax and Livestock 

Protection 4ct'» - Mr. Douoett. 1925. 

Bill reported. 1927. 

Bill ho. 57; "An Act to amend the Statute Labour Act" - 

Mr. Doucett. 1927, 

Bill reported; 1927. 

Bill No. 47; "^ Act to amend the Workmen's Compensation 

Act" - Mr. Daley 1928. 

Bill Reported. 1928. 

Bill IMO. 58; "An Act to Confirm Tax Sales" -Mr. Dunbar 1929. 

Bill reported. 1929 

Bill NO. 59: "An Act to amend the Bees' Act" - Mr. 

Bill reported. 

Bill 73: "An Act to amend the Liquor Autbiaity Control 

Act" -Mr. Blackwell 
Bill reported. 

Bill No. 46: An Act to amend the Public HosjitAls' 

Act" - Mr. Vivian. 
Bill (as amended) Reported. 

Resolution from His Honour the Lieut. Governor, re cer- 
tain Bills requiring the expenditure of money" 

Bill No. 74: "An Act to amend the Highway Improvement 

Act" - Mr. Doucett. 
Bil. reported. 

Bill Noo 76: "An Act to amend the Fire Departments' 

Act" - Mr. Blackwell 
Bill report«d. 

Bill No. 79: "An Act to amend the Public Vehicles' 

Act" - Mr. Doucett. 
Bill reported . 

Bill %0'. "An Act to amend the Commercial Vehicles" 

Act" - Mr. Doucett. 
Bill (as amended) reported. 

Bill No. 82: "AnAct to amend the Trustee" Act" - 

Mr. Blackwell 
Bill reported. 

The House resumes.' 

Reportiijg certain Bills with amendments and certain 
Bills without amendment" 















F 1 













N G 








Toronto, Cntardo. 
Wodneaday, March 21, 

SPEAKER: Hoaourabl* William j. Stonrart, C. B. E. 


R«sumiag Adjourned Dtbata on the sub -amendment to the 
amendment to the motion for the coijsi deration of the • ■ 

Speech of the Honourable Lieut .-Governor - Mr. Williams 1965. 

Re; C. C. F. viewpoint. Cons. 1965. 

Re; Comparison of Progressive/and 

Liberal parties. 1969. 

Re: East York Workers' Ass'n. 1974. 

Re: Lrder-in-council, P.C. 1003 1981. 

Re: Labour Relations Board of 

Ontario. 1988. 

Re: Minimum wages. • 1996. 

Re: Civil Service. £001. 

Re: Workmen's compensation. 2008. 

Re: workmen's Compensation Boards' 

case histories. 2013. 


Re: Natural resources of northern 

Re: Schools li. Northern Ontario. 
ReL Forests. 
Re: School of Forestry. 

2047 . 






Toroiito, Ontario. 
Thursday, March 22, 1945, 

SPEAKER: Honourable William J. Stewart, C.B.E. 


Final Reporter of Standing Comniittee on Miscellaneous 

Bills, 2061. 

Intrdiduction of : "The Town Planning Act" - Mr. Porter. 2062. 

First Reading. 2062. 

Introduction of "An Act to amend the Game and Fish- 
eries Act" - Mr. Dunbar. 2063. 
First Reading. 2063. 

Introduction of: "An Act to amend the Provincial 

Parks' Act" - Mr. Thompson 2063. 

First Reading. 2063. 

Intrd)duction of "An Act to amend the Vital Statis- 
tics ' Act" - Mr. Dunbar 2063. 
First Reading. 2063. 

Introduction of "An Act to amend the Wartime Housing 

Act, 1344" - Mr. Dunbar. 2064. 

First Reading. 2064. 

Introduction of: "An Act to amend the Assessment Act" - 

Mro Dunbar. 2064. 

First Reading. 2064. 

Introduction of "An Act to amend the Lociil Improve- 
ment Act " - Mr. Dunbar. 2064. 
First reading. - 2065. 

Introducticof "An Act to amend the Ontario Municipal 

Board Act" - Mr. Dunbar. 2065. 

First reading. 2065. 


Introduction of : "An Act to amend the Municipal Act" - 
Mr. Dunbar 
First Reading. 

introduction of : "An Act to acaend the Long Point Park 
Act" - Mr. Thompson. 
First reading. 

Introduction of; "An Act to anend the Industrial 
Farms' Act" - Mr. Dunbar. 
First reading. 

Introduction of "An Act to amend the Presque Isle 
Park Act" - Mr. Thompson. 
First reading. 

Introduction of "An Act to provide for voting for 
Benchers of Law Society" - Mr. Blackwell 
First reading. 

Introduction of: "An Act to amend the Money Lenders' 
Act" - Mr, Blackwell 
First reading. 

Introduction of: "An Act to amend the Coroner's Act" - 
Mr. Blackwell 
First readiiig. 

introduction of "An Act to amend the Surrogate Court 
Act" - Mr. Blackwell, 
First reading: 










of 48th Annual report for Loan Corporations 
endind December 31, 1944. 

of 66th Anziual report of Superintendent of 
Insurance, for year ended December 31, 1944. 

Ann\ial report of Superlntenddnt of Legal 
Offices, for year ending December 31, 1944. 

Annual report of Secretary aiid Registrar of 
Province of Ontario, for year ending December 
31, 1944. 

Annual Report of Commissioner of Oi^tario. 
Provincial Police, for year ending December 
31, 1944. 

Annual report of Game and Fisheries Department, 
for year ending December 31, 1944. 

Bill No. 3o 

An Act respecting the Vi*y of Welland - Mr. Brown. 

Third Reading. 

Bill No, 6; "An Act respecting the city of food- 
stock" - Mr. Dent . 
Third reading. 










Bill Uo , 8: "An Act respecting the Synod of the Ddkocese 

of Niagara" - IkIt . Roberts 2072. 

Third readiag. 2072. 

Bill 1^0. 10: "AnAct respecting the Evangelical Luther- 
an Seminary of Canada" - Mr. Cook. 2072. 
Third reading. 2072. 

Bill No. 11: "An Act respecting the city of St. Thomas" 

Mr. Hepburn (Elgin) 2073. 

Third reading. 2074. 

Bill No. 5: "An Act respecting the city of Peter- 
borough" - Mr. Scott; 2073. 
Third reading. 2073. 

Bill Imo. 9: "An Act respecting the city of Kings- 
ton" - Mr. Stewart (Kingston) 2073. 
Third reading. 2073. 
Bill No. 12:"i8n Act respecting the city of Port 
Arthur" - Mr. Robinson (Port Arthur ) 2073. 
Third reading. 2073. 

Bill NO. 4: "j||n Act respecting the Royal Ottawa 

Sanitorium" - Mr. Laurier 2074. 

Third reading. ' 2074. 

Bill N6. 7: "An Act respecting the Peterborough Civic 

Hospital" - Mr. Scott 2074. 

Tnir^ reading. 2074. 

Bill NO. 13:"Ari Act respecting the city of Ottawa 

Separate Sdhool Board" - Mr. Laurier. 2|>74. 

Third reading. ,2074. 

Bill Wo. 44: "AnAct to amend the Public Health Act" 

Mr. Vivian 2075. 

Third reading, 2075. 

Bill NO. 56: "An Act to amend the Dog Tax and Live- 
stock Protection Act" - Mr. Doucett. 2075. 
Third reading. 2075. 

Bill NO. 64; "AnAct to amend the Mining Act" 9 Mr. 

Frost. 2075. 

Third reading. 2075. 

Bill No. 57:"i([^ Act to amend the Statute Labour 

Act" - fix, Doucett. 2075. 

Third reading. 2075, 

Bill No. 47: "An Act to amend the Workmen's Com- 
pensation Act" - MTc Daley. 2076. 
Third reading. . 2076. 

Bill No. 58: "iflp Act to Confirm Tax Sales" - Mr. Dunbar, 2076. 

Third reading. 2076. 

Bill No. 59: "An Act to amend the Bees' Act" - Mr. 

Doucett. 2076. 

Third reading. 2076, 


Bill No. 75: "An Act to amend the Liquor Authority control 

Act, 1944" - Mr. Blackwell 2076. 

Third reading. 2076. 

Bill No. 46; "An Act to amend the Public Hospitals' 

Act" - Mr. Vivian. 2077. 

Third reading. 2077. 

Bill No, 74:"An Act to amend the Higiiways' Improve- 
ment Act" - Mr. Douce tt. 2077. 
Third reading. • 2077. 

Bill No. 76; "AnAct to amend the Fire Depsrtments' 

Act" - Mr. Blackwell 2077. 

Third reading. 2077. 

Bill NO. 79: "An Act to amend the Public Vehicles 

Act" - Mr. Doucett. 2078. 

Third reading. 2078. 

Bill No. 80: ,?An Act to amend the Commercial Ve- 
hicles' Act" - Mr. Doucett. • 2078. 
Third read ixig. 2078. 

Bill No, 82: "An Act to amend the Trustee Act" - Mr. 

Blackwell " - 2078. 

Third reading. 2078. 


An Act respecting the 
An Act respecting the 
An Act respecting the 

An Act respecting the 
An Act respecting the 
An Act respecting the 
IJivic Hospttal 

An Act respecting the Incorporated Synod of the 
Diocese of Niagara, 
An Act respecting the 

An Act respecting the Evangelical Lutheran 
Seminary of Canada. 
An Act respecting the city 
An Act respecting the city 
An Act respecting the city 
An Act respecting the city 

amend the Counties Reforestation Act. 

amdnthe Crown Timber Act. 

amend the Public Works' Act. 

repeal the Political Contributions Act. 

amend the Judicature Act. 
The Securities Act, 1945. 

An Act respecting Prospecting Syndicates having 
a capital iot exceeding |35,000.00o 
An Act to amend the Public Health Act. 
An Act to a mend the Public Hospitals Act. 
An Act to amend the Workmen's Compensation Act. 
An Act to amend the Dog Tax and Livestock Pro- 
tection Act. 

Town of Barrie. 
City of welland. 
Royal Ottawa Sanitor- 

City ofPeterborough, 
city of Woodstock. 
city of Peterborough 

Incorporated Synod of 

City of Kingston. 

of St. Thomas, 
of St . Thomas . 
of Port Arthur, 
of Ottawa Separate 



An Act 


An Act 


An Act 


An Act 


An Act 











Aa Act 


An Act 


An Act 


An Act 


An Act 


An Act 


An Act 


Act, 1944. 

An Act 


An Act 


An Act 


An Act 


An Act 


amend the Statute Labour Act. 

confirm Tax Sales. 

amend the Beea' Act. 

amend the Public Trustee Act. 

amend the Mining Act. 

amend the Evidence Act. 

amend the Liquor Authority control 

amend the Highway Improvement Act. 
amend the Fire Departments' Act. 
amend the Public Vehicles Act. 
amend t/ie Comms rcial Vehicles Act. 
amend the Trustees' Act. 



Resuming Adjourned Debate on the sub-amendment to the 
amendment, to themotion for the consideration of the 
Speech of the Honourable the Lieut. -Governor - Mr. 
MURRAY: Re; Complimentary remarks. 2081. 

Re: Police enforcement of laws. 2085. 

R«: t»hds and forests. 2095. 

Re: Women's Compensation. 2108. 


RSB: Education. 

,Re.: Children's welfare. 

Re: Women's pla ce in world. 




Tourist industry. 
Industrial enterprises. 
Planning aud Development 





Duty of debating. 
Lengthy speeches, 
French Canadians. 







Toronto, Ontario, 
Thursday, March 22, 1945. 

SPEAKER: Honourable William j. Stewart, C. B. E, 


Resuming Adjourned debate on the sub-amendment to the amend- 
ment to themotion for the consideration of the Speech of the 
Honourable the Lieut. -Governor 2143. 

MR. A. BELAKGER ( contiijuing) 


Re '.French Canadians. 

Re: Electric Power in East Ontario, 

Re: Treatment of French Canadians. 

Re: School Grants. 

Re: Unity between races. 

Re: Samples of Ore in Parliament 


Re: Mining industry 

Re: Compensation Board. 

Re: Minimum Wages. 

Re: new Canadians. 

Re: Sulphur fumes, 

Ra: Portraits, 

Ra: Prime MiiAster's radio address, 

August 9, 1944. 

Re: Amendment and sub-amendment. 

Re: Immigration. 

R'«s Religious teaching ia Schools, 

MR. EDRWAD B. JOLLIFFE (Leader of Opposition). 

Re: Position of CCF in regard to 

sub -amen dmen t . 
Re: CCF Leader's own views. 








HON. asCRGE A. DRESr vPrime iiioister). 2209. 

H«: Sub-aiuendment. 2211. 
R«: Immigration. 2214. 
Re: Preferential Treatment for mem- 
bers of Armed Services. 2217. 
Re: Religious education in Schools^ 2220. 

The House divided on the sub-amendment (Motion lost) 2229. 

The House divided on the amendment, (Motion carried^). 2230. 

Motion for House to adjourn until Tuesday, March 

27, 1945 - Mr. Jolliffe. 2232. 

Motion a;^reed to. 2232. 




SPEAKER; Honourable William J. Stewart, O.B.E. 



TI13-E: An. ACt respecting The Music Teachers Association 

- Mr. Martin 

1st Heading 3/7/45 Page 8l£ 

2nd Heading i. i. 

Coumit tee - ^- 

3rd Heading - ^ 


TITLE: im Act Respecting the Town of Barrie - Mr. Johnston 

Ist Reading 


Page 394 

2nd Reading 






3rd Reading 



Royal itssent 




TITLE: An Act jidfpecting the City of Welland - Mr. Brown 

1st Reading 2/27/45 Page 394 

2nd Reading 3/19/45 1703 

ConMittee 3/21/45 1916 

3rd Reading 3/22/45 2072 o 

. ; Royal Assent 3/22/45 2079 ' 



TITLE: An Act Hespectlng the Royal Ottawa Sanitorium - }Jlr» Laurier 

1st Reading 
2nd Reading 
^omnii tteji 
3rd Reading 
Royal' Assent 






Page 743 




1st Reading 
2nd Reading 
3rd Reading 
Royal Assent 

;ing the City 



- Mr. 



Page 749 











TITLE: An Act Respecting the City of Woodstock - Mr, Dent 

1st fieading 
2nd Reading 
3rd Reading 
f^oyal Assent 


Page 394 



TITLE: An. Aat Respecting the Peterborough GiviO Hospital - 

- Mr. Scott 

Ist Reading 
2nd Reading 
Commit tee 
3rd Rdading 
Royal Assent 






Page 744 




BII,L NO. 8 


TITLE: An Act Respecting tiie Synod of the Diocese of Niagara 

Mr. Roberts 

1st Reading . 
2nd Reading 
3rd Reading 
^yal Assent 


PagB 394 






20 72 





TITLE: An ^ct Respecting the City of Kingston - Mr. Stewart 


1st Reading 
2nd Reading 
3rd Readijag 
Royal A^apnt 


Page 745 









BILL NO, 10 

TITLE: An Act Respecting the Evangelical Lutheran Seminary 
of Canada - Mr. Cook 

1st Reading 
2nd Reading 
3rd Reading 
Royal Assent 


Page 394 

BILL NO. 11 

TITLE: An Act respecting the City of St. Thomas - Mr. Hepburn 


1st Reaaing 
2nd Reading 
•3rd Reading 
Royal Assent 


Page 393 


BILL NO. 12 

TITLE: An Ac^ respecting the City of Port Arthur - 

Mr. F.O. «oi>lnson (Port Arthur) 

1st Reading 
2nd Heading 
3rd- Reading 
fioyal Assent 






Page 744 

BILL NO. 13 

TITLE: An Act respecting the City of Ottawa Separate School 
Board - - Mr. Laurier 

J.3t Reading 
2nd Beading 
3rd lieading 
floral Assent 


Page 394 

BILL NO. 14 

TITLE: An Act respecting the City of London - Mr. Patrick 

1st Heading 3/13/45 Pagfe 1066 

2nd Heading - , - 

Conmittee - - 

3rd Heading 

BILL NO. 15 

TITLE; An Act respecting Sacred Heart College of Sudbury 

Mr. cmrttn.- 

1st Reading 
2nd Heading 
3rd Heading 


Page 526 


BILL NO, 16 

TITLE: An ^ct respecting the Township of Stamford - Mr. Overall 

1st Reading 3/13/45 Page 1066 

2nd Heading 


3rd Heading - 

BILL N0» 17 

TITLE: An itct to Incorporate the Kingston Club - Mr. Mitchell 

1st Reading 2/28/45 Page 526 
2nd Reading 
3rd Reading 

BILL NO. 18 

TITLE: An Act respecting the Township of Crowland 

1st Reading 3/6/45 Page 743 
2nd Reading - 
3rd Reading 

Mr. Brown 

BILL NO. 19 

TITLE: An Act to authorize the Corporation of the City of 

Toro.nto to Plan and Zone the Municipality - Mr. Roberts 

1st Reading 
2nd Reading 
3rd Heading 


Page 813 



BILL NO. 20 


An ^iCt respecting the City of Toronto - Mr-. Roberts 

1st Reading 
2nd Reading 
3rd Reading 


Page 814 

■BILL NO. 21 

TITLE: An ACt respecting the Village of Swansea - Mr. Millard 

1st Reading 
2nd Reading 
3rd Reading 


Page 746 

BILL NO. 22 

TITLE: An Act respecting the Township of Teck - Mr. Grummett 

1st Reading 3/22/45 P*gO 1896 
2nd Reading 
3rd Reading 

BILL NO. 23 

TITLE: An Act respecting the Canadian Legion of the British 
Empire Jervice League, Branch 51 - Mr. Overall 

1st Reading 
2nd Reading 
3rd Reading 


Page ^43 

r BILL-NQ. 24 

ti'ITLE: An Act respecting the Town of Paris - Mr. Nixon 

1st Reading 3/22/45 Page 1896. 
2nd Reading 
3rd Reading 


BILL NO. 2^ 

TITLE: An Act .to provide for the Voting of Active Service 

Voters at a General Election to the Assembly -Mr.BJa ckwell 

1st Reading 
2nd Heaaing 
Srd Heading 
Royal ^vssent 


Page 23 









BILL NO. 26 

TITLE: An Act to Amend the Mental Hospitals Act - Mr. Vivian 

1st Heading 
2nd Reading 
3rd Heading 
Royal Assent 


Page 38 

BILL NO. 27 

TITLE: An Act to Araena the Children's Protection Act - Mr. Vivian 

1st Heading 
2nd Reading 
3rd Reading 
Royal Assent 


Page 39 

BILL NO. 28 

TITLE: An Act to Amend the Territorial Division Act - Mr. Thompson 

1st Heading 
2nd Reading 
3rd Heading 
Royal Assent 

2/19/4 5 
2/27/4 5 

Page 39 


BILL NO. 29 

TITLE: Afiii^^ct to Amend the Surveys Act - Mr. Thompson 


1st Beading 
2nd Beading 
Z'rd^ Reading 
jRoyal Assent 


Page 39 

BILL NO, 30 

TITLE: >The Voters' List Act 1945 

Mr. Blsickwell 

1st Beading 


page 76 

2nd Beading 





' 560 

3rd. Beading 



BILL NO. 31 

Tl^LE: The Election ACt: 19 45 

1st Beading 
2nd Beading 

3rd' Beading 

( 3/2/45 
t 3/12/45 

<. / 

Mr* B]ackwell ".?' 

Page 76 






■■■«( • 

' BILL NO, 32 

TITLE: An Act to Amend the Counties' Beforestation Act - 

Mr. Thompson 


1st Beading 
2nd Beading 
3J5d Beading 
Boyal Assent 

2/26/4 5 

Page 23 6 






BILL NO, 25 

TITLE: An ACt to Amend the Crown Timber Act - Mr. Thqjapson 

Ist i<eading 
■^d Heading 
3rd Heading 
Royal Assent 


page 33 6 

2/26/4 5 








BILL NO. 34 

TITLE: An Act respecting Forest Engineers - Mr. Thompson 

1st Heading 


Page 137, ' 

2nd Heading 




( 3/2/45 


( 3/19/45 


3rd Heading 



BILL NO. 35 

TITLE: An Act to jitaend the ijaiisages by Fumes Arbitration Act 

Ml". Frost 

1st Reading 
2nd Heading 
3rd Heading 


Page 170 

BILL NO. 36 

TITL|I: An ACt to Amend the Public Works Act - Mr. Doucett 

1st Heading 
2nd Reading 
3rd Reading 
Royal assent 






Page 170 






f. •■' 

BILL NOp 37 

TITLE; An xict to I^epeal the Political Contributions Act 

- Mr. Bla 

1st Heading 
2nd Heading 
3rd Heading 
floyal Assent 






■ *.' 


iblcwel 1 

Page 170 





BILL NO. 38 

TITLg; An Act to A'lasnd the Judicature Act - My. Blackwell 

Ist Heading 

2nd Heading ' ' 
-5rd. Heading 
iioyal Assent 


Page 171 

■ 3/1/45 




■ ;^/l9/45 

.!>.-l, 1632 



'^ BILJ NO. 39 

TITLE:' An Aot to iunend the Municipal Act - 

1st Heading 2/23/45 " Page 231 
2nd Heading - ,. 
Committee • 

3rd Heading 

Mr. Bennett 

BILL NO. 40 

TITLE; An Act to Amend the Public Utilities Act - Mr. Connor 

Ast Reading 2/23/45 Page 231 

2nd Reading 


3rd Heading- - 


BILL NO. 41 

TITLE: The Securities .tct 1945 - 

Mr .Blackwell 

Isl: lieuding .2/26/45 Page 298 
Debate on Motion for 2n(i Heading - 

. 3/5/45 688 

2nd Reading 3/7/45 832 

Committee (3/16/45 1551 

("5/19/45 157E 
3rd Heading 3/21/45 

Hoyal Assent 3/22/45 2079 

BILL NO. 42 

TITLE: An Act respecting Prospecting Syndicates Having a 
Capital not exceeding |35, 000.00 - Mr. Blackwell 

1st Heading 
2nd Heading 
3rd Heading 
Hoyal Assent 


Page 303 


BILL NO, 43 

TITLE: nn .i.ct to .timend the Municipal Act - Mr. Belanger 

Idt Heading 2/27/4 5 Page 395 

2nd Heading - - : 

Committee - - 

3rd Heading ^ - 

BILL NO. 44 

TJlTLE: ^n Act to Amend the Public Health Act - Mr. Vivian 

1st Heading 
2nd Heading 

3rd Heading 
Hoyal iissent 

t 3/19/45 
(■ 3/21/45 

Page 550 



TITLE: An ^ct respectiing Housing Standards - Mr. Lennison, 

Page 551 

1st Heading 
2nd Heauilig 
3rd Heading 


BILL NO. %6 

TITLE; An Act to Amend the Public Hospitals Act - Mr, Vivian 

1st Reading 
2nd Heading 
3rd Heading 
Hoyal iissent 






BILIiJfQ. 47 

Page 630 

-': I- 

TITLE: An Act to Amena the Workmen's Compensation ACt - Mr. Daley 

1st Reading 
2nd Reading 
3rd Heading 
Royal iissent 


Page 631 

BILL NO. 48 

TITUEf:/ An ACt to Amend the tiunicipal Health Services Act 1944 

- Mr. Dennison 

1st Heading" 
2nd Heading 
3rd Heading' 


Page 681 



BILL NO. 49 

TITLE: An «.ct to iuabnd the Marriage Act - Mr. Strange 

1st Heuciing 
2nd Heading 
3rd Heading 


Page 681 

— ■,*; 

BILL NO. 50 

TITLE: An ACt to amend the Hours of Work and Vacations with 
Pay 1944 - Mr. vailiams 

1st Heading 
2nd Reading 
3rd Heading 


Page 742 

BILL NO. 51 

TITLE: An Act to Amend the > Venereal Diseases Prevent ion Act 194 2 

- Mr. Strange. 

1st Heading 
2nd Heaaing 
3rd Heading 


Page 743 

BILL NO. 52 

TITLE: An ACt to Amend the Public Health Act - Mr. Dennfson 

Ibt Heading 3/6/45 Page 744 
2nd Heading 
3rd Heading 


BILL NO. 53 

TITLE: xJi ACt to -amend the Public Health Act - Mr. Hobinson 

(Port Arthur) 

1st Heading 3/6/45 Page 745 
2nd Heauing 
3rd Heading 

BILL NO. 54 

TITLE: An ACt to Authorize the Appointment of an Ontario Fuel 
Comaission - Mr. Dennison 

1st Heading 3/7/4.5 Page SIS 
2nd Heaaing - 
Gomiui ttee 
3rd Heading 

BILL NO. 55 

TITLE: An ACt to Amend the Municipal Act - Mr. Anderson 

1st Heading 3/7/45 Page 813 
2nd Heading - - - 

3rd Heading 

BILL NO, 56 

TITLE: An Act to Amend the Dog Tax and Live Stock Protection Act 

- Mr. iJoucett 

Ist Heading 


Page 813 

2nd Heading 






3rd Heading 



Royal Assent 




BILL NOo 57 

TITLE: >4i^ Act to ^mend the statute Labouk*. Act - Mr. Doucett 

1st Heading 
2nd Reading 
3rd Heaaing ' 
Royal ^asent 






Page 814 

BILL NO. 58 

TITLE: ^n Act to Confirm. Tax Sales - 

Mr. Dunbar 

Is-t Reading 
2nd Reading 
Coinmi ttee 
3rd Beading 
fioyal ^ssent 

3/19/4 5 

Page 814 


BILL NO. 59 

TITLE: An •■iCt to Jtmend the Bees Act - 

1st Reading 
2nd Reading. 
Goiuai ttee 
3rd Reading 
4pyal Assent 






Mr. Doucett 

Page 815 

BILL NO, 60 

TITLiU' An ^Act to Amend the Optometry Act - Mr. Hepburn 

,1st Reading 3/8/45 Page 879 
2nd Reading - 
CoMQittee - 

3rd Reading - 


BILL NO. 61 

TrrLE: An Act to Enable Municipalities to Establish Community 
planning and Housing .Author! tes - Mr. Warren 

'1st Heading 
2nd Reading 

>3r.d Reading 


Page 880 


BILL NO.^62 

TITLE: "An Act to Amend the Professional Engineers Act - Mr. Scott 

.*vlst Reading 
2n(i Reading 
3rd Reading 


Page 880 

BILL NO* 63 

TITLEi'v iin ^ct to Aiaend' the Public Trustees' Act - Mr. Blackwell 

1st Reading 
2nd Reading ' 
3rd Reading 
Royal Assent 






page 881 
10/? 2 

. ; 1902 

BILL NO. 64 

TITLE: An Act to Amend the Mining Act - 

Mr. Frost 

1st Reading 
2nd Reading 
3rd Reading 
Royal ^i.saent 


page 882 
.- 11134 



BILL NO. 65 

TITLE: An Act to ilmend the Evidence Act - Mr. Blackweli 

1st Heading 
2nd Redding 
'3rd Reading 
Royal Assent 


Page 882 









BILL NO. 66 

TITLE: An Act to Amend the Nurses Hegistretion Act - Mr. Vivian 

1st Reading 
2nd Reading 
3rd Reading 


Page 1003 

BILL NO. 67 

TITLE: 'An -act totP:^ovide Relief for Persons Who Have Suffered 
' ■Substantial: impairment of Income, Owing to Illness, ; 
or Unemploji^ nt or any other Cause Beyond Their Control 
in Respect 'to Their Homes - Mr. Mrren 

1st Reading 
2nd Reading 
3rd Reading 


^age 1004 

BILL NO. 68 

TITLE: iin Act to .tuaend the Venereal Diseases Prevention ACtl942 

Mr. Vivian 

1st Reading 
2nd Reading 
3rd Reading 


Page 1004 


BILL NO. 69 

TITLE: An Act to Amend the Hours of Work and Vacation withPay 
ACt 1944 - Mr. Daley 

1st Reading 
2nd Heading 
GoMiii ttee 
3rd Heading 


Page 1005 

BILL NO, 70 

TITLE: -rt-n Act to Amend the Medical Act - Mr. Vivian 

1st Heading 
End Heading 
3rd Heading 


Page 1005 

BILL NO. 71 

TITLE: An Act to Provide Financial Protection for Persons 
who have Suffered Su|^tantial Impairment of Income 
owing to illness, Unemployment or other caases beyond 
their Gontrolo - Mr. Warren 

let Heading 
2nd Heading 
3rd Heading 


Page 1005 

BILL NO. 72 

TITLE: An Act to Amend the Minimum Wage Act - Mr. Daley 

1st Reading 
2nd Heading 
3rd Reading 


Page 1006 


BILL NO, 73 

TITLE: An Act to Amend the Liquor Authority Control Act 194 4 

- Mr. Blackwell 

1st Reading 
2nd Reading 
3rd Reading 
Hoyal Assent 


Page 1065 









BILL NOo 74 

TITLE; An Act to Amend the Highway Improvement Act - Mr. Doucett 

1st Reading 
2nd Reading 
3rd Reading 
Hoyal Assent 


Page 1066 

BILL NOo 75 

TITLE: ^i^ar Beet dujjsidy Act 1945 - 

Ist Reading 
2nd Reading 
3rd Reading 


Page 1191 

Mtw Doucett 

BILL NO, 76 

TITLE: An ACt to Amend the Fire Department's Act - Mr. BlackweLl 

1st Reading 


Page 1192 

2nd Reading 






3rd Reading 



Royal Assent 




BILL NO. 77 

TITLE: Ap Act to Amend the Forest Fires' Prevention n-ot - 

Mr. Thompson 

1st Readihg 
2nd Heading 
3rd Reading 


Page IS 61 

BILL NO, 78 

TITLE: An Act to Amend the Factory, Shop and Office Building 
Act - Mr. «Daley 

1st Heading 
2nd Heading 
3rd Heading 


page 1362 

BILL NO. 7 9 

TITLE: An ACt to Amerni the Public Vehicles Act - Mr. Doucett 

1st Heading 
2nd Heading 
3rd Heading 
Royal Assent 


Page 1362 

BILL NOp 80 


An ACt to 



Vehicles ACt - 



1st Heading 


Page 33 62 

2nd Heading 






3rd Heading 



Royal Assent 




BILL NO. 81 

TITLE: An Act to provide for the EstablisiauEnt of Co4;^rvation 
Authorities for the purpose of the Conservation, 
Hester ution and Development of Natural Hesoui-ces, 
other than gas, oil, coal and minerals, and for the 
Prevention of Floods and Water Pollution. - Mr. Porter 

1st Heading 
2nd Heading 
3rd Heading 


Page 1511 

BILL NOo 82 

TITLE: An Act to iuoend the Trustee Act - 

Mr. BJackwell 

Ist Reading 
2nd Heading 
3rd Heading 
Royal Assent 


Page 1512 

BILL NO, 83 

TITLE: An ACt to Amend the Highway Traffic Act - Mr. Doucett 

1st Heading 3/16/45 Page 1512 

2nd Heading 

CoBimittee - 

3rd Heading 

BILL NO, 84 

TITLE: An Act to Provide for An Annual Grant to the University 
of Toronto School of Niwstng - Mr. Vivian 

1st Heading 
2nd Heauing. 
3rd Heading 


Page 1568 


BILL NO. 85 

TITLE: An Act to Amend the Sandwich-WincLsor-Amherstburg 
Bailway ACt - Mr. Bennett 

1st Heading 3/19/45 Page 1558 

2nd Heading 
3rd Heading 

■BILtUOc 86 

TITLE: An ^ct to ^vmend the Municipal Act - Mr. Hobinson 

(Port Arthur) 

1st Heading 3/19/45 Page 1569 
2nd Heading, - - 

3rd Heading 

BILL NO. 87 

TITLE: An iict to iuaend the Insurance Act ~ Mr. Blackwell 

1st Heading 3/19/4 5 Page 15 69 
2nd Heading 

Committee - ' 

3rd Heading - - , 

£ILL NO. 88 

TITLE: ^^n Act to Amend the Land Survq^ors' Act - Mr, Thompson 

1st Heading 3/19/45 Pagel570 
2nd Heading 
3rd Heading 


BILL NO. 89 . 

TITLE: "Ti^e Mortgagors' and Purchasers' Relief Act, 
1945 - Mr. Blackwell. 

1st Heading 
2nd Heading. 


Page 1570. 


BILL NO. 90. 

fThe Cheese and Hog Subsidy Act, 1945'' 
Mr. Doucett. 

1st Beading. 
2nd Heading. 
3rd Heading. 


Pag0 1570. 

BILL NO. 91. 

TITLE: "An Act respecting Marine Insurance" - Mr. 

1st Heading. 
2nd Heading. 
3rd Heading. 


Page 157d. 

BILL NO. 92. 

TITLE: "An Act to amend the Municipal Act" 

1st Heading 
2nd Heading. 
3rd Heading. 



Page 1730. 



BILL NO. 95 « 

"An Act to amend the Minimum Wage Act" - Mr. 

1st Reading. 
2nd Heading. 
3rd Heading. 


Page 1730 • 

Bill No. 94. 

TITLE: "An Act to amend the Public Schools' Act". 
Mr. Grummett. 

1st Heading 
2nd Heading 
3rd Heading 


Page 1730. 

BILL NO. 95. 

TITLE; "An Act to amend the Companies' Act" - Mr. 
Blaclcwell. '^ 

1st Heading 
2nd Heading 
3rd Heading. 


Page 1731. 

BILL NO. 96. 

TITLE: "An ACt to amend the Separate Schools ' Act" 
Mr. Grummett. 

1st Heading 
2nd Heading, 
3rd Heading, 


Page 1731, 


BILL NO. 97. 

TITLE: An Act to amend the Loan and -Trust Corporations* 
Act" - Mr. Blackwell. 

Ist Heading. 
2nd Heading. 
3rd Heading. 


Page 1732. 

BILL HO. 98. 

TITLE: "An Act to amend the Mining Tax Act" - Mr, 

1st Heading. 
2nd Heading. 
Comml 1 1 ee 
3rd Hefiuding. 


Page 1732. 

BILL NO. 99. 

TITLE: "And Act to amend the Labour fielatlons' Act" - 
Mr. Williams. 

1st Heading. 
2nd Heading. 
3rd Heading. 


Page 1895, 

BILL NO, 100. 

TITLE: "An Act respecting the purchase of cattle with 
horns" - Mr. Doucett. 

1st Heading. 
2nd Heading. 
3rd Heading. 


Page 1895. 



BILL NO. 101. 

"An Act to amend the Workmen's Compensation 
Act* - Mr. Williams, 

1st Reading. 
2nd Reading 
3rd Bending. 


Page 1896. 

BILL NO. 102. 

TITLE: ""TJae Town-Planning Act" - Mr. Porter, 

1st Reading 3-22-45 Page 2062, 
2nd Reading. 

Committee - - 

3rd Reading. - • 


BILL NO. 105. 

"An Act to amend the Game and Fisheries' Act" - 
Mr. Dunbar. 

1st Reading. 
2nd Reading, 
3rd Reading. 


Page 2063, 

BILL NO. 104. 

■■■I ■'■ ■ ■■■■■■■»■■' ■■ ■ I ■ ■ 

TITLE: "An Act to amend the Provta&ial Parks' Arrtr* — 
Mr. Thompson. 

1st Reaaing. - 
2ad Reading. 
3rd Reading. 

3^ ^2-45, 

Page 2063 < 


BILL NO. 10^ I 

TITIE: "An Act to amend the Vital Statistics* Act" - 
Kt, Dunbar, 

1st Heading 3-22^45. Page 2063, 
2nd Heading - 

Committee - 

3rd Reading. 

BILL NO, IfH&'f 


TfllTLE: "An Act to aiaend the Wartime Housing Act" 
^ir. Dunbar, 

1st Heading; 3-»22-45 - Page 2064. 

2nd Heading. 
3rd Heading. 

BJ^JL NO, lj) 7 

TITLE: "An Act to amend thp Assessment Act" - Mr. 
Dunbar . 

1st Heading; 3-t22-45 Page 2064. 

2nd Heading, ' - 

Committee -. - 

3rd Heading. <•* • 

BI^L NO. Ig8 . 

TITLE: "An Act to amend the Local Improvement Act* 
Mr. Dunbar. 

1st Heading 3-'22-45 Page 2064. 

2nd Heading 

Committee «> 

3rd l^eading. i- 

BILL NO. 1^ 9 y 

TITLE: "An Act to amend the Ontario Municipal Board 
Act" - Mr. Dujiba^. 

1st Heading 3-^22-45 Page 2065. 

Committee • • 

;3rd Heading. 


BILL NO. 110. 

TITLE: "An Act to amend the Municipal Act" 

1st Heading. 
2nd Heading. 
3rd Heading. 



Pag-e 2065. 


ILL KO. 111. 

TITIE: "An Act to amend the Longue Pointe Park Act" - 

Mr. Thompsstn. 

1st Reading. 
2nd Heading. 
3rd Heading. 


Page 2066. 

BILL NO. 112. 

TITLS: "An Act to amend the Industrial Farms' Act" - 
Mr. Dunt&r. 

1st Heading. 
2nd Heading. 
3rd Heading. 


Pag;e 2066. 

BILL NO. 113. 

TITLE: "An Act to amend the Presque Park's Act" - 

Mr. Thompson. 

let Heading. 
2nd Heading. 
3rd Heading. 


Page 20.6 7» 



BILL NO. 114. 

"An Act to provide for voting for the Benchers 
of the Law Society**- - Mr, Blackwell. 

1st Heading. 
2nd Heading. 
3rd Heading. 


Page 20^7. 

BILL NO. 115, 

TITLE: '*An Act to amend the Money Lenders' Act" - 
Mr. Blackwell. 

1st Heading. 
2nd Reading. 
3rd Heading. 


Page 2067, 

BILL NO. 116. 

TITLE: "An ACt to amend the Coroners' Act" - Mr. 

1st Heading. 
2nd Heading. 
3rd Heading. 


Page 2069. 

BILL NO. 117. 

TITLE: "An Act to amend the Surrogate Courts' Act" - 
Mr. Blackwell. 

1st Heading. 
2nd Heading. 
3rd Heading. 


Page 2070. 

- - 


of the 

Second Session of the Twenty-first Legislatxire of the 

Province of Ontario <> 

Honourable George A. Drew, K. C<»> 

Prime Minister, 

Honourable William J„ Stewart, C.B.Eo, 


Major Alex Lewis, Clerfc* 


Toronto, Ontario, 

Thursday, February 15, 1945. 

The House met at 3 o'clocko 

The Honourable the Lieutenant Governor then entered 
the House, and took his seat upon the Throne. 

The Honourable the Lieutenant Governor was then 
pleased to open the Session with the following gracious 

Mr. Speaker and Members of the Legislative Assembly: 

As you meet at the opening of the Second Session of 
the Twenty-first Legialatxire, I wish to extend my best 
wishes as you resume your legislative duties o 

At the outset I would like to take the opportunity 
to join with you In paying respect to the memory of a 
former Speaker, the Honourable W. D. Black, who has died 
since we last met. For nearly half a centuiry, Mr* Black 

- 2 - 2-15-45. 

was prominent in the public life of Ontario and won the 
affection and esteem of all who knew him. He sat con- 
tinuously as a member of this Legislature from 1911 until 
1943, when advancing years led to his retirement o I be- 
lieve that as we pay respect to his memory we may well 
recall such examples of long public service^ 

Since you were last in Session, the United Nations 
have gone forward from victory to victory, and statements 
issuing from the meeting of the three leaders of our com- 
bined effort do give reason for confidence that the war in 
Europe is rapidly reaching its climax. But there will 
still be hard and costly fighting, and our first thought 
must be with those who bear the brunt of that mighty 
struggle and with their loved ones at home who wait in 
anxiety for their safe return. 

Education lays the foundation for the strength of 
Ontario and of every other part of Canada. Many important 
changes have been made in our educational system. The 
moat important single step which has been taken is the 
assumption by the Government of fifty per cent, of the 
total cost of elementary and secondary education through- 
out the province. This will make it possible to equalize 
educational opportunity as never before, and it will en- 
able the Department of Education to accelerate the improve- 
ment of many of our less satisfactory schools. It will 
greatly relieve the burden of taxation on real estate fop 
school purposes, and in this way have the effect of en- 
couraging the building and improvement of homes, where all 
education begins. 

Much has been done already to improve the possibili- 
ties of good rural education. Approximately one-quarter 

- 3 - 

of the old school sections have been merged in Township 
School Areas. This brings to children in the rural 
schools better teachers, standard courses of instruction, 
and wider opportunities to continue their education through 
the secondary school grades. Special grants have been 
offered to rural high schools which adopt the regular 
school courses to local needs by the introduction of prac- 
tical agriculture, shop work and home economics: open the 
school for use as a commiinity centre, and provide hot 
lunches for pupils who come from a distance- Thirty schools 
have already iindertaken this special programme, and many 
others have indicated their intention of following the same 
course as soon as staff and equipment are available. More 
rxiral schools with an enrollment below eight have been clos- 
ed tenq?orarily, bringing the number so closed up to four 
iiundred and twenty- five. The value of this policy is not 
so much the saving in cost as it is the inprovement of 
instruction which can be given in the larger class-groups. 

The provincial scholarship plan has been considerably 
expended to aid able but needy studentSo Five hundred and 
eighteen winners of scholarships and bursaries are now 
studying in our universities, normal schools and other in- 
stitutions of higher learnings 

A new step has been taken in the field of advanced 
technical training by the opening of the Ontario Mining 
Institute at Haileybury» Under the direction of an Advisory 
Committee, which represents all phases of mining activity, 
the Institute is already functioning satisfactorily. 

One of the most interesting developments in the past 
year has been the opening of a training centre in Toronto 
for ex-service men and women. This is the first establish- 


- 4 

laent of its kind in Canada. It is under the administrative 
direction of the Department of Education, working in full 
cooperation with the Dominion Government as part of the 
broad rehabilitation programmeo Training is already being 
given in fourteen different occupations, and instruction in 
other trades will be available as aoon as the need arises 6 
There is a great demand for special educational training 
which will prepare returning veterans for university courses 
or vocational training, and a higlily successfxil tutorial 
course has been established which will be expanded rapidly, 
as demobilization proceeds » 

It is fully recognized that the efficiency of any 
system of education depends primarily upon the teachers 
themselves, and it has been the desire of the Department of 
Education to ingjrove teaching standards throughout the prov- 
ince and to put the teaching profession upon a sound and 
satisfactory basis. Since the passing of the Ontario Teach- 
ing Profession Act during the last Session, the Teachers' 
Federation has assumed new responsibilities and has given to 
the teachers of the province a means of expression and pro- 
fessional direction which will be of great help to them and 
to the whole province. It appears that many improvements 
which are so necessary in educational administration would 
be greatly helped if there were some single organization of 
a similar nature which brought together the combined opinion 
of all Boards of School Trustees throughout Ontario* 

The serious shortage of trained ijeachers, which has 
reached critical proportions in all provinces, was met in 
Ontario by organizing summer sessions in two normal schools 
and in the Ontario College of Education. The closing of 
many schools was averted by this action. And the results 

- 5 - 

were so satisfactory that it will not be necessary to con- 
duct these special courses during the coming year. There 
is, however, a definite need for teachers of general shop 
work and trade subjects. To meet this need, the Ontario 
Training College for Technical Teachers was re-opened 
last month. 

Guidance of the instruction of pupils is arousing ever- 
increasing interest, and a Provincial Director of Guidance 
has been appointed to extend the full advantages of this 
important Educational development to every part of the proT- 
ince. School Boards may now employ their own Guidance Of- 
ficer. Material which will assist in organizing this work 
in the schools can now be secured from the Ontario College 
of Education at cost price© 

New courses have been introduced which place special 
emphasis upon character, physical fitness and citizenship. 
Religious education has been extended as a part of the 
curriculum in the public schools, and in cooperation with 
the Inter-Church Committee on Week-day Religious Education, 
a Teacher's Manual and guide books for the first four grades 
have been prepared and issued. Under a Director of Physical 
and Health Education, courses have been revised and greatly 
extended. Cadet training has been introduced as a part of 
the high school programme. This course is co-related with 
phyisical and health education to develop physical fitness, 
initiative and a sense of responsibility. Another important 
development has been the appointment of a Provincial Super- 
visor of Art, who is responsible for encouraging the arts 
and crafts, placing particular emphasis upon the use of 
local materials. Increased emphasis has been placed upon 
the teaching of history and the responsibilities of citizen- 

« 6 - 

ship. A very valuable new book has just been completed 
explaining the history and operation of Canadian insti- 
tutions, which will shortly be ready for use in Grade 
XII. Many further revisions of school courses are under 
consideration, but are delayed for the present by waartime 
shortages and the difficulty of obtaining new text boolcs. 

A committee has been set up to assist in the planning, 
construction and equipment of schools. The purpose of this 
advisory committee is to take advantage of new construction 
methods so that schools may be built at the lowest possible 
cost, and at the same time give every modern advantage to 
the pupils. This committee will be of great assistance in 
carrying out a much-needed prograrame of school renovation 
and construction. 

The Department of Health has done much to ensure a 
maximum of public health and preventive services for all 
of the people within the province, despite the difficulties 
of carrying out a comprehensive programme under wartime con- 
ditions. The principle of larger units for public health 
administration is being accepted by local authorities. A 
return to civilian life of physicians, nurses and other 
technical staff will make it possible to establish a sub- 
stantial number of units throughout the province at that 
time. Two such units were established last year, and three 
more are now being organized. 

The plan of the Department for securing, public health 
nurses has been most effective. Fifty-two nurses were re- 
cruited and are now taking the post-graduate training re- 
quired for this work. They will be available on May 1st, 

The Government has extended an opportunity to other 

- 7 - 

professional personnel to secxire the needed special quali- 
fications required for positions in these units. It is 
proposed to continue this plan for another yearo 

The health of the worker, particxilarly in industry, 
continues to assiime its proper relationship to the public 
health programme as a whole. The Department is hopeful 
of the opportunity during the coaing year to set up one 
or more demonstration units in selected highly-industrializ- 
ed areas. The purpose of these is to show what can be 
accomplished in this field when an effective method of ex- 
tending this service is carried outo 

Sustained efforts are being made to reduce the inci- 
dence of social diseases. It may be noted that during the 
past year there has been a substantial drop in the number 
of reported cases of the most serious of these diseaaeflo 
Legislation will be introduced to further assist an effect- 
ive control programme. 

The problem of the control of tuberculosis is still 
mainly one of increased diagnostic facilities and adequate 
sanatorium accommodatiouo It has been demonstrated that 
the mass survey of entire communities by x-ray is both 
practicable and effective » An extension of this method of 
case finding is being \mdertaken. 

Post-war construction of needed sewage-disposal and 
water-supply plants is being considered in an increasing 
number of communities now in need of this type of service. 
It has been of extreme interest to note the acceptance by 
the public at large of the need for quite substantial 
commitments on the part of the local authorities in support 
of these projects. 

The protection of the public food stipply is a task 

erf ■' 

tBdmta t^ 
-tootle OB tzlmma 


moaneq iBfloiaaeloiq; 

'Oi o:' r 

B afl MnBangr _.. - 

.•\ t'r A JS^ 


Sxxx8B97oal OB ai bo'i 

eBBeioajt to eco x-^ni^ta. 

■---:. - ■-;;' trlf 

,&rttoet'iQ tna eid&oltoaiq 

n9^tteb:ai rented zt gaifixxil ezBO 


'B far. . 


■tre bo 

il orii 

- 8 - 

assuming substantial proportions, and a s\irvey of the pro- 
cedure now being followed in both urban and rural munici- 
palities will be undertaken during the coming year. 

Over-crowding in the mental hospitals of the province 
continues to be a cause of great concern. The return of 
the Ontario Hospital at St. Thomas, which is an early pos- 
sibility, will only provide ten^iorary relief of the need 
for additional beds. An addition to the hospital at 
Orillia is now nearing completion, and new hospitals in 
other parts of the province will be part of our post-war 

Plans are ready for an extensive programme of mental 
hygiene to be iii5)lemented upon the return of the fifty- 
seven psychiatrists of the Department now serving with the 
Armed Forces. 

Reduction of the incidence of cancer continues to 
receive the attention of the Government. The myembers of 
the Cancer Foxmdation have worked assiduously with the 
Department in the evolution of a programme for an extension 
of diagnostic and curative services for this condition. 

Investigation has shown that the present rate of 
payment for indigent patients in public hospitals is not 
sufficient to meet the mounting cost of hospital care at 
the public-ward level. Legislation will be introduced to 
deal with this subject. Hospital accommodation is under 
review, and it is hoped that the needs of those municipali- 
ties #iere it is at present insufficient may be met at an 
early date. 

One of the basic problems of medical care is the lack 
of diagnostic facilities, particiilarly in the smaller com- 
munities. The cost of necessary equipment, the difficulty 

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lo eT'"'jn-->!n sri'" . d-nofr.-r^^Tor' orlJ 

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yL£iXi~oilQi}(i eaJ 

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bnn .WQirai 

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,etRb iltBB 

-Eiaa aeXXBfiie c.XiJBiuoX;riBq ,BeX*XIiOfll oiszoasBi: 

- 9 - 

of securing a technical staff and medical men with the re- 
quired skill and experience in interpretation, make local 
effort in many areas virtually impossible. This problem 
has been, and is being, studied with a view to establishing 
a comprehensive programme within the coming year, augment- 
ed as soon as personnel is available^ 

The Board 5 set up under authority of the Municipal 
Health Services Act, 1944, has reported that there is a 
total lack of reliable information as to the cost of 
operating coinprehensive curative health services. Due to 
this and a shortage of personnel there is no present pos- 
sibility of making these services generally applicable 
throughout the province. The Board is attempting to estab- 
lish municipal services in a few representative communities, 
in order that exact information as to the cost can be obtain- 

The Government has continued to receive the cooperation 
of the medical profession, both individually and collective - 
ly, in its efforts to promote a constructive pro gramme of 
public health, preventive care, and curative health services. 

The Department of Public Welfare has put into effect 
new food schedules, so that persons requiring assistance may 
be assured of an adequate diet based on proper nutritional 
requirements. The Government makes a contribution to the 
municipality of fifty per cent, of the cost of these food 
allowances. Mothers* Allowances have also been increased 
where need is shown. New Day Nurseries and Day Care Centres 
are being opened. Twenty-two of the former and forty of the 
latter are now in operation. A Youth and Child Welfare 
Division has been established to deal specially with the 
problem of these groups. 

- 10 - 

The work of the Department of Labour has been greatly 
expanded. The Regional War Labour Board for Ontario has 
continued to function during the paat year under the Chair- 
manship of the Minister of Labour. This Board administers 
the Wartime Wages' Control Order in the Province of Ontario 
as part of the Dominion machinery set up to prevent infla- 
tion. Approximately eight thousand cases were considered 
last year by this Board, or about one-third of the total 
for the whole Dominion. In addition' *fco ^plications for 
rate adjustments, the Board has dealt with many applications 
concerning sick benefit schemes, group insurances, pension 
schemes, extended vacation programmes and hospitalization. 
Those advances in the protection and welfare of industrial 
workers will undoubtedly have a permanent place in the con- 
ditions of employment in industry, and will be available to 
many ex-service men returning to their peacetime occupa- 

The Workmen's Cou^jensation Act will be broadened again 
this year to bring additional classes of workers under its 
protection and legislation will be introduced for this 
purpose. I am advised that it is the opinion of my 
Ministers that every person who works for an employer should 
ultimately have tBe protection of this Acto 

The Ontario Labour Relations' Board has disposed of 
a great majority of the four hundred cases submitted to it 
since it was established last April. It is worthy of note 
that the number of cases in which the employer and employee 
members of the Bosurd have been in disagreement has been al- 
most negligible, and it is a gratifying fact that the man- 
days of work lost in industrial disputes throughout Ontario 
have been considerably reduced. The Ontario Government has 

r- ' 
8l8*Biclitf6B 6-rflofI sir' 

ua^ai; ami'^" 

01 oXcfsIJtBVB e 7 J[)nfl tyi;ti 

nlBS© b«a«fc XXJtw toA iXoilBaneqmoO e 

iv noli Alt 


•raod eriJ 3q as 

.- xKdx jeal 
;,tr!9ir;tBt'M>8 ©tart 

' fto^elze ,Bea9ii08 

' ssraavlJB OBBifT 

.19 S-XB^llOV 

to maotilb 
lez-'Xa i;nBa 
• Bnoi^ 
W erfT 

. eaoqiuq 

avflii ileiaaittlu 

to ijeaoq-sif) ex. 

.oS • eno ttB 

': 3u ;iar[ i-nano©^B8ib ai need avad i>'Lso- *=•■'■' '^o aiadinara 

-!isi3 ec d-5Bl aaiYtl^Bia fl ai J-Jt baa ,©idlaxXs©c ^raoxa 

oiTBcfno *£r'^:hiroT:riJ ee^i/qeif) XBia;tai/5nJ: nx cTsoX ^irrow lo a>ca^ 

- 11 - 

agreed with the Dominion Government that all decisions of 
the Board shall be subject to appeal to the National war- 
time Labour Relations* Boardo 

The Minimum Wage Act and the regulations thereunder 
will be amended to secure a more satisfactory remuneration 
for female workers and to change the hours of work from 
fifty- two to forty-eight. Rates of pay will be adjusted 
by the Industry and Labour Board. 

The pressing needs of war production and the shortage 
of labour have made it necessary for the Department of 
Labour to exercise great care in administering the Act 
passed last year dealing with hours of work and vacations 
with pay. Thousands of workers have, however, enjoyed 
shorter hours and holidays with pay. All work over forty- 
eight hours, or above any lower minimum, which may have 
been established in particular industries, has been con*» 
sidered as overtime worko This Act has caused work to be 
spread among a greater number of workers, an effect which 
will be more pronounced after the war. The Department of 
Labour has been cooperating in the effort to provide 
technical and practical training for men discharged from 
the Arm«d Forces. Provision has been made, for example, to 
allow stationary engineers, when demobilized, to count 
their period of war service in meeting the requirements 
for operating experience «, 

Agriculture continues to be the most important basic 
industry in Ontario. In the past year production increased 
in spite of the critical shortage of farm labour, and the 
demands upon our farmers this year will be equally greats 

During the past year, considerable study has been de- 
voted to the organization and administration of the Ontario 

- il ' 

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Cr-ftSI? 31/0191 rid 


9d XXaila bxeoS aild^ 

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'B aii;n f Tstiorfp. 

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-9b aaec Ja eXdfliaManoo »^Be-\c i^asq eri* saxii/a 

olisi-nO art* lo noii'Ba;J-«lnXfflfiB fina floll-BsXnssio edi oi betov 

- 12 - 

Agriciiltural College, the MacDonald Institute, and the 
Ontario Veterinary College o Appropriate steps will be 
taken to bring these important institutions, which are 
situated on one can^ius, under a co-ordinated plan of 
administration, which will make the utmost use of all. 
their educational, research, and other facilitieSo 

The Ontario Stockyards have been taken over and plac- 
ed under the control of the Ontario Stockyards' Board„ Its 
operation has already proved most satisfactory. 

Pasture is one of our moat important crops which has 
for many years received little attention. The Government 
has embarked on an extensive series of demonstration lota 
where experiments in various types of permanent pasture 
are carried out \inder the supervision of County Field Crop 
Associations. Further extensions of this in5)ortant pro- 
gramme will be undertaken this yeaPo 

County Agricultural Committees have been organized in 
many counties, and it seems likely that most, if not all, 
the counties of Ontario will soon have committees of out-» 
standing farmers to guide and assist agricultural produc- 
tion in their own countieso 

Heavy Dominion taxation, man-power shortage, and war»- 
time restrictions continue to depress Ontario's great 
mining industry and to affect adversely the revenues of 
the province and the mining municipal it ies« The value of 
mineral production in 1944 was $210,000,000, as compared 
with $230,000,000 in 1943. This was mainly because of 
lowered output from the gold mines, which f0ll from more 
than $122,000,000 in 1940 to $65,000,000 in 1944. The 
nximber of producers have fallen from, seventy-four in 1941 
to less than forty at the present time* There are indica- 

9A1 bw. 

•00 grit lebnv b9 

..ijj»9Xis sax: nolJB-isqo 

">erleo 91 axBS-'r vrrjBsi ic* 

9.taeatieqxe enedn 

-itvxacrrT 1^::o BsJrTTaa ^im 

Bi JSitOII it- 

• Fi ;*■; •• -1 V f* 


to ©yXsT e 
J^diAqssoo 8A 

to 6Bis»QQd xLalasa. a^ 

fuan ^noltaxB. 



0>€I fli 

.^'X ;^aXbaMtA 
I led* at aott 

XiiAubaJL ^latai 

.a» sonlvorrq exfct' 


,0QS4 dtXw 

jqtuo bertmoL 

-MO-.. oSffli* ;>-fl»B»Tq arli^ *b ^*"iot iiad* aaeX o* 

- 13 - 

tions that other producing mines will be forced to abandon 
operations in the near future© In terms of revenue the 
decline is much more marked, with the Goyemment collecting 
less than nineteen per cent, of the amount collected in 1941 
from gold productiono The Royal Ontario Mining Commission, 
appointed in October, 1943, has made an exhaustive report on 
mining in the province. Some of its recommendations have al- 
ready been put into effect, and others will be presented to 
you in the form of legislation, A meeting of Provincial 
Mines' Ministers is to be held in Q.uebec this spring, when it 
is hoped that solutions will^ be found for various problems, 
including that of overlapping taxation. 

You will be gratified to learn that the Provincial 
Treasurer has comple.ted an agreement with the Treasurer of 
the Province of 'Quebec whereby overlapping of Succession 
Duties upon estates situated within the two provinces will 
be avoided. A similar arrangement has been completed witli 
the Province of Nova Scotia. The remaining provinces have 
been invited to enter into similar agreements, so that 
multiple provincial taxation may be ended. Important amend- 
ments designed to clarify the provisions of the Succession 
Duty Act, and thus make for better administrative procedure, 
will be presented to you for consideration* 


The Travel and Publicity Bureau arranged during the year 
an important conference on post-war tourist planning. The 
proceedings are printed, and have been in wide demand. The 
Bureau is respecting the wish of the Government of the United 
States that long-distance travel should not be encouraged at 
present, but contacts are being maintained and plans laid for 
attracting tourists to Ontario after the war. 

The Temiskaming and Northern Ontario Railway is also ex- 

- 51 - 

aoboMdB ct SeoTol ad IlJtw »e • louhonq xexfJo ^jsdt aaoidf- 

it a^tiw J 7 Bi 8a»^e aeaJM 

flO tTLO>-l-.' 

9dt n 

Ut'ii 80 

i«j/x£vo YUBiajQw aijQOi;^- ,...j 

- b&i& &QiB7ze noqu bbHuCL 

^mB%B£ii£ rsiiitmtp, A .j&sfi£ovB ©cf 

bOM ^ioA x^uQ. 

— , — ^ 91* esniJieeooiQ 

dajtw li^osqaei ax UMetuS. 

iarBii 9onMtiitb'. iMiii adimtB 

J @aa siOBiaoo tu6 ,#GeeeTq 
o'viiw ©XL* lai^xJB oiio-taO od- ei-aixi/oi- ani^o«ii'i'« 
-x» oalii ai Y«W-tiaH * iioil^ioll i^iua gnijinaalBiineT 8iiT 


- 14 

plorlng the possibilities of the tourist trade and investi- 
gating supplementary methods of transportationo Although 
the railway has not participated to any noticeable extent 
in the business expansion which the war industries have 
brought to certain parts of the province, and although it 
hasfelt the effects of the depressed condition of the min- 
ing industry, the Commissioners have cause for satisfac- 
tion in reporting that for the year ended March 31st, 1944, 
the gross revenues of the railway reached an all-time high 
of $6,358,428.95. The Commission is considering a substan- 
tial programme of expansion this year, which includes boat 
service on the Temagami Lakes and on Lake Nipissing, to- 
gether with the purchase of additional rail equipment and 
general improvement in facilities. 

The Department of Game and Fisheries has completed 
plans for additioneil fish hatcheries designed to take care 
of the increasing demands on the game and commercial fish 
of the province. To ensure that these facilities will be 
put to the best possible use it is proposed to add to the 
staff of the Fish Culture Branch a number of men with 
biological training or who are qualified to take such train- 
ing. A general survey of water conditions is to be made, 
with special enquiry into natural and artificial barriers in 
lakes and streams which obstruct the passage of fish to the 
spawning beds. The desirability of establishing fish ladders 
where obstructions cannot be removed will also be considered. 
This Department, which derives substantial revenues from 
hunting and fishing licenses, also proposes to improve tour- 
ist accoimaodations through a more intensive camp inspection 
and a programme of education. Crown Lands where fur-bearing 
animals may be taken will be zoned, and preference in the 

hi - 

1 set jtj>lrii> 

'31 al ttolt 


T O. *■ ■ f^ ■ 

-»n> ^ 7 4- 


Jbae taetaqLvpi 


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, fifttS! 


: q &di dJiv tedie^ 
.B0. . :ul Ifliaxies 

'•^ biXB etu>t -iqsa mil 

sexiaiio^Bil xiail ijBaoi;rxbl>B lol exiisXq 

?--■' — ■■'■* to 

Idxaaoq tzt 


}iniu^ LB79xxes A .saJt 

nB iBxuJec r;/prr© .Ce.r09<T3 ritiw 

if scifiVBqa 

:'-cE9*r: etf JoflflBO anoJt^ojLf-rJsrfo onejclw 
s&i,»a3"i0'i isx-£iaJSwije .ei-vx'ist , rnsisrxsqou 

4ffi[i o?' Beaoqoiq oals ^aeaxiealJ . aJtl 6flB ;/ri 

u-fla STl3ns*ni aion; a ri?iirotff3" anoii'sboflaaooofi tai 
I uasxii" fuDiuxi nwoiO .xioxjeoxrae xo aauusT^iCi 

D8C0S ed II^w neiLs^ ecf xmi alBffixxiB 

sd' o all? 

- 15 - 

allocation of areas will be given to experienced trappera 
and war veterans. 

To achieve Toniformity in vital statistics' laws 
throughout the Dominion, a new Vital Statistics' Act will 
be introduced. Legislation will also be introduced to 
permit the province to replace county and city gaols with 
suitable modern institutions v/here that may be deemed ad- 
visable. The Mimic o Reformatory, which for several years 
has been used by the Federal authorities for war purposes, 
was returned to the control of the province last May and 
is again being used as a reformatory. Facilities for 
training and accommodation at the Ontario Training School 
for Girls have been almost doubled, and a suitable gymnasium 
has been provided. 

The municipalities of the province are shown by their 
reports to be in a sound financial position, and have led 
the way in debt reduction for the whole of Canada. Invest- 
ments in post-war reserves already total $1,827,5S9, Amend- 
ments to the Assessment Act will be introduced, which, among 
other provisions, will enable municipalities to collect 
taxes from Crown tenants of commercial properties. The 
Municipal Act will also be amended in important particulars. 

The Government recognizes that the forests, the lands 
and the streams, and their resources, constitute Ontario's 
greatest asset for the employment of the skills of her 
I>eople, and for their health and enjoyment. Our forests must 
produce perpetual supplies of raw material if they are to 
provide continuous em^ployment for our citizens. To assure 
this emplojrment and to produce the required material our 
forests must be adequately protected, and the crop must be 
cultured and improved. The Government, therefore, proposes 

- ex - 

ftrteqqaiJ b-- i* at -booIXb 

IXJtw 4"0/ ' '^ s ,Xioxxilraoa er' 

O^ 6eo(/&o<x^fl; tiBi&t;iBJ .bos; 

^%ei'. ■'■■'"■"-' '^siw 10'^ " -f b&zsj need bjsxI 

ftaa X^^ ieal »9as.roiq_ 9dt Ic iiui9i zbw 

looxlo" ^.,..-*~ ^^^ ^^ col^J's&orai..' -' a bno aaJtfliBi:;^ 

mu/BB' \.a »:-:- a itas ,jb0i aoualB xxeed evAd eXalO lot 

„ ^?■ ^9cf ao£f 

axe.. awQae s"iii aauxvo-i'.; ■_.;.'.i,., vxIT 

ft»I evflil baa . jz 

-tsarnl .»6»nB0 to sXoriw 'fiw erf* 

3aoias ,iloiiiw ,£>e taaffleBeseA ed^ oj* zinea 

toeilot) ot so T alrffiff© Iliw .srfOlatroTr tarfto 

en-' .ae ..- .. :j us^is "^ 

« B'. 

B'oiajt* :uoo ,asoiJLfc . a aa: 

rr9xi 'io elXlit '".":-. lol ;r»BBB *Bo;r«©i8. 

Jawin a .t ;■- a-r -/ ; . •; - • '■. ,. .';:f oXaoecr 

•iifBaE .eassitio ^ijo lol d-nais^oXctJaa Bj:;ox;i3X;ffloo 9f>^o'i<i 

rti!.- tr; i-Totfii-r ftsiitrpe^ ^•'^tt sant Snjs tneBrroXcrind eiriJ" 

5-- .1 -r-./u qouci on;} b SIM «iiOJoe;roaq 'iiaTjQX/pSDS 9U jaixci STEa^ol 

Baaoqoiq .diolaiaril ^i-aacrnievoC .fievo^cpttl ioe betss^luo 


- 16 - 

first to bring the protection of the forests to a high 
standard of efficiency, and to make it possible to malii- 
tain a continuously high standard in the years to comeo 
It proposes, secondly, to assure proper management of 
these forests. These plans embody rehabilitation oppor- 
tunities on a large scale for war veterans. An immedi- 
ate project is to find, if possible, some way of con- 
trolling the Budworm epidemic in Northern Ontario,, A 
large-scale experiment is proposed along practical lines 
in the Nipigon Lake area. The Legislature will be asked 
to provide funds to purchase the most modern insecticides, 
and when these are made available by the '.lartlme Priorities' 
Board an area of over 100,000 acres will be treated by 
aerial methods o Our air fleets greatly depleted in the 
war years, will be augmented by the purchase of four of 
the most modern air craft « 

A laboratory at Sault Ste, liarle for the study of 
forest insects will be completed during the year as part 
of a long-term programme for the protection of our forests 
from insects This laboratory, in equipment and staffing, 
will be among the most modern in the world. The Forest 
Bangers who fight fires and supervise timber-cutting are 
the foundation of the protection and management systemo 
The new Ranger School in Hallburton will be opened this 
year. Here it will be possible for rangers and for key 
men in the woods' industries to attend and take advantage 
of the educational facilities provided by this advanced 
school. In the field of Reforestation, preparations are 
being made to add to the production of our forest nurser- 
ies by additions to existing stations, and by the estab- 
lishment of new stations where needed. You will be asked 
to consider legislation to permit counties to deal with 

» fliet 

5^af' ":;t9 sloi- 


'j tr^i'slcrffloa erf ILtn z-iaeznt teeac'i 

r ©ild- 

■ u; iiBviii oataJ tat 
•1 seitrn 

.^exi a 


- 17 - 

the cutting of wood lots on patented lands within their 

municipal boundaries. Authority will also be sought to 
provide a body of trained men capable of dealing with the 
broad questions of management in our forests. 

In ifeeping with wartime conditions, the work of the 
Department of Highways during the past year has been con- 
fined almost entirely to maintenance, and only minor con- 
struction involving the replacement of bridges was under- 
taken. The Department faced a serious shortage of equip- 
ment and man-power, and considerable deterioration of many 
highways has been the result. To prevent serious damage 
being caused to many road surfaces, a programme of light 
bitximinous paving was successfully carried out. More than 
two hundred miles of main highway were surfaced in this 
manner, which will give a substantial saving in mainten- 
ance costs in the coming yearo Exceptionally heavy snow- 
fall throughout the province, accompanied by high winds, 
caused increased expenditure and taxed the snow-plowing 
facilities of the Department to the limit. Increased 
financial assistance was given to the municipalities, 
particularly in regard to bridges » Recognizing the impor- 
tance of the county and township roads to the war effort, 
very little reduction was made in the subsidy grants. 

¥0T the ccming year capital expenditure will again be 
confined to those highways serving military camps, airports 
and war industries. It is proposed to continue the pro- 
gramme of light bituminous surfacing so far as available 
equipment and man-power will permit, not only as a means of 
reducing maintenance expenditures, but also to conserve 
available supplies of gravel for future use. Additional 
snow plowing equipment is being purchased, and arrangements 
will also be made whereby road maintenance machinery, such 
as power graders, will be available for rental to sparsely- 

1/ tw Bi 

ftt frl .r-^-y 

33^j8q no a^oJ boow to aaJt^^i/o 9dt 


"COO aa&n adii i&t 


1 n r-' tj 


ilea a i> 


TOlxe Ccfs-iei 


-r.3;i i . - -.:-■ 

eisuas J .B': 


hetiiBO ^IJJulnaao 


' .-«w yaw; 


tBBx "^ntssoo 

- oaXautld 

"^ hanfifljuri owi^ 


St BOO aoofi 

J Hal 

xa l>o&ac )a8i/ao 



s»2 avrjT? 

• Jlafloi;)-J:i buv e lo at: e aXcfalJteva 

Btcamas^isiTa fins ^baeariOTnc Tsnlarf p t tn^^anirpe :^0i"«ro£q wona 

iJaA;£, .{:■•-'■ - ■^OBSii aaxueaajixx-' .' >• i ■ j-ij-A Ilia 

-■^laB' aliavfl ed lltw ,Baafeana lEewoq ea 

- 18 - 

settled townships which cannot finance thie equipment them- 

The Department has a comprehensive programme of post- 
war work. Engineering data and bridge design have now 
advanced to the stage that work could be started on short 
notice should the necessity arise to provide employment for 
returning war veterans or those presently engaged in war 
industries. Proposed legislation affecting this Department 
is confined to minor amendments to the Highway Improvement 
Act and the Highway Traffic Act, which are designed to 
clarify the administration of certain sections of both Acts. 

The Department of Public Works has plans prepared and 
work projected for a programme of building construction 
which will have a beneficial and far-reaching effect, in that 
it will provide nine million man-days* work throughout the 
province. The amount of work so provided will apply to all 
branches of the construction industry, including not only the 
personnel engaged in, or directly connected with, the actual 
building operations, but also to those engaged directly and 
indirectly in the production, supply, or manufacture of the 
materials and other equipment and furnishings to be used. 
It is proposed to proceed with building projects urgently re- 
quired to fill present requirements, as soon as the necessary 
men, materials and equipment can be obtainedo 

Electrical energy generated and purchased by the Hydro 
Electric Power Commission to supply the Ontario load reached 
an all-time high exceeding twelve billion kilowatt hours. 
All the demands for war activities in Ontario have been met, 
and essential domestic and mvmicipal power requirements have 
suffered no shortage. The Ogokl diversion and the remedial 
weir above Niagara Falls continued to have a beneficial 

^ 81 - 

-i^oq to 901081^. 

lot iamsz'^^'"'^'^ 


■ tawavfoiqaZ ■"-^ 

5x10 ^'"■ ■••""' 

tadi n 



»ri* lo »tvfoBt:jaspi ". 
• fieai 

X^Bnzeosa &d:i' sb rtr; 

... SxJil 



tfltJ'E TBid 

CXlw rioirfw 


,*affl need ©vs/l oliaJx- 

- 19 - 

effect upon the output of the generating stations on the 
Niagara River, and the new plant at De Cew Falls added 
Its full quota to the power resources of southern Ontario. 

The Commission has agreed, as trustee for the Govern- 
ment, to purchase the power system of the Northern Ontario 
Power Company, Limited, for $12,500,000. If and when the 
necessary legal details have been completed, the Commis- 
sion will take over its operation. The properties include 
eight Hydro Electric plants with an installed capacity of 
66,840 horse power, 739 miles of transmission lines, and 
157 miles of distribution lines o When acquired, the pro- 
perties will be amalgamated with the Abitibi District of 
the Northern Ontario properties, thus eliminating duplica- 
tion of service and resulting in great economies. The 
acquisition of these properties will also enable the Com- 
mission to extend its Hydro rural service to many consximers 
in the areas served by the Coajjany. It will further allow 
the Commission to reduce the cost of power to the mines in 
this territory from $36o00 per horse power to the price re- 
cently approved by the Government to all mines aerved by 
the Commission, which is $27.50 per horse powero The new 
price of $27,50 per horse power will represent a great sav- 
ing, which will encourage development in hard-rock mining 
in that area in the immediate post-war era. 

Notwithstanding the restricted supply of labour and 
materials, the Commission has been able to construct four 
hundred miles of rural primary line, chiefly short exten- 
sions to existing lines, as compared with forty miles in 
1943. Service was given to about 10,000 new consumers, 
7,000 of whom received service from lines which already 
existed. The Commission is projecting plans for a vigorous 

- t 

.JX6 ,19V •SflJtH 

«5i •T.9lii»qpiq erf: 

btm , aeislX aoi; s : < c 

-«c iuXd aifilJ ,c:eJ::tioqc 

erfT .eoi-; 

DfdQ'L^ s^a aax8exim.oj e... 


:>t .bcthnll .T/XBcrfEoO 19^0*1 
>vc' o:iBd- XIlw nois 

BeXio vex 

vcf be i-i^neo 



ao xaq 


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fXl BOlllT. 

fflOO Bii (BSXXX. 


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90 trie; 



isXq gi 

:;aiininoQ oilT 


- 20 - 

five-year post-war rural Hydro programmeo 

The average power sold to all rural consumers, includ- 
ing war industries in rural areas, increased by nearly 
fourteen per cent. There is strong evidence everywhere of 
a keen desire to use more electricity. This desire has 
been stimulated by the new uniform rural rate structure. 
Ae a result of increased use and the lower rates incorporat- 
ed in the new schedule, the average cost to rural consumers 
decreased in 1944 from 2„6 to about 2a3 cents per kilowatt 
hour or about 11 per cent. It is' the purpose of the commis- 
sion to encourage greater consumption by rural consumers, 
which will further reduce the cost of power. 

The Attorney General will submit several measures con- 
sidered to be in the public interest. Legislation repealing 
The Securities' Act, and substituting a new Act, will be 

At the last Session of the Assembly a Select Committee 
was appointed with instructions to study the Acts governing 
the holding of provincial elections , with a view to their 
general revision. This Committee has held a number of meet- 
ings during the recess, and has given careful consideration 
to the Acts referred to it. The Comiaittee »s report will be 
tabled. Bills revising the Active Service Election Act, 
the Voters* Lists' Act and the Slection Act will be introduc- 

A Royal Commission was established with Y;ide powers to 
study the question of safety in public halls. The report of 
the Commission has been received, and, as a result, legisla- 
tion will be submitted which will require public halls to 
maintain certain definite standards of safety. 

The Department of Planning and Development, which was 

- OS - 




i-0 2 lawoq a^Bidva s: 'I 


lico mail n&zaaaaa. 

.(nifn o,t .1 . S fiio 

- J 1 1 ' ) m'^- ■-'■' ■•-'' i-i i a J i^ 

e^' f^'-tw ,J"0' 

ur . i"i f> 

'Blnmt:fe. rreorf 



•Ha dxlT 

.»8«4 ori- 

■" WSJtV £ iOU 9iXJ 

ij«iio1:9n eJoA 9xI;J" oj" 


lovoq 9bl7r rftJhf *ef{BiIdfl;f8 9 asw «ci:8e A 

lo iioqai erlT . • 

ot wlLad ailduq orclugvi 11 in ■yi'itmdsm xw aott 

«ij*»lBa lo •-•''•" ■^~ ....-*.-. ^f nlatTeo xciBd-nlsm 

aBW iialilw. , JnamqoieveQ t. jexatoiB^aa eriT 

- SI - 

created last year, will introduce a bill dealing with con- 
servation and flood control and also one providing for town 
planning. There is need for a coD5)rehensive and effective 
solution of the problem of flood control, especially in 
certain watersheds in Southern Ontario. The Government 
recognizes that any fully effective undertakings designed 
to control floods must combine the .appropriate engineering 
projects with a broad and complete programme of conserva- 
tion, restoration and development of the natural resources 
of the whole watershed. 

Such programmes must be carried out with the full co- 
operation and agreement of the various groups of people 
residing in the watershed. The main responsibility will 
necessarily rest with the mxinicipal governments. The Con- 
servation and Flood Control Bill will, therefore, provide 
for the establishment of conservation and flood-control 
authorities, to be appointed by the municipalities concerned. 

The Government recognizes the advisability of laying 
the foundation for municipal planning, especially to enable 
municipalities to derive the fullest advantage from post- 
war constructiono and also to enable municipalities and 
their citizens to take the utmost advantage of the provisions 
of The National Housing Act. The Government will present a 
town and regional planning bill which will enable municipali- 
ties to carry out their plans effectively, and will also en- 
able a group of municipalities to enter into a joint plan, 
where they have common planning problems. 

The Ontario Civil Service has been assured of greatly 
improved conditions of employment, and amendments will be 
introduced to The Public Service Act. May I take this oppor- 
tunity to pay a tribute to the splendid work done by the 
Civil Servants of this province during more than five years 

- IS - 

raro. ^Ib bnB lort jvi«i 

•vlto. rifl 9\ eiqnoo b "rarlT mislfi 

-Bvie aao9 lo Msauinso'xq e:^ b £>Boa:d s il;Mw ad^ootoiq 

BeoTiTOB©"! lBixT*en 9ri;t lo irisfliCTOIeveb bae nottBio&aei .nrtt 

©iCToerr to -^-ucrr^i BirciisT arit *o InamesTajB fsrrs noiJaiOCTo 

-noO adT .•inaaxiiasvc ud-tw ;^8B1 y:itTo»9909a 

Lotiaoo-'lioort i>as aoii£vx»&aoo to iaeauL&tl^aJue &£L^ 'i.o'l 
.b»tyi a 9di y<^ fiB^flxoqqA del o:r ,aol^l:cod^uB 

•Xcfsxis Ui»iDdqeo « -ixujm %q1 aoiiBbauo'^L edt 

-^Boq aortt e^B;fnB' j-vtiBb oi imitllBqiotaum 

has e-v- ,., baa o^^....,^^. 

enoiaxvoiq j- anesitio 'liea^f 

3 ;J-fl»e»n:q •LLlv . fiavo-O ©rlT ^sTI edT to 

«iXBXq,^ni;ot ^ ctal loiae oi e»l;rt£BqXai£ix;ffi lo quoi^ a BlcfB 

, >mT»r ".-. T." ^:-»';"ctBXq iI01IUP''> "'"ail Y®"^^ &"<»:'■» 

•%X*B9Ts "io 6a^iiBa« naecf &mL eoivaea XXviO « T 

•cf IXiw B*a©fli5naciB baa coicpio lo anoltl jevoagail 

-Toqgo alii;}' 9>Ijb* I ^^^5 -^o' --!•-•.-' .-.rifrr^ ^-^a. ^+ mo. 

exl* Zd 9aob alaow cif)neXq8 e oiijdiii > ^iiaui 

eiB9Y ©vil jOfidi- eioia sfilrci/fc eoiiivoiq Blrf* 5o e^naviea XXviO 

- 22 - 

of war. The Queen »s Park War Service Guild and other or- 
ganizations within the Civil Service also deserve great 
credit for what they have done to assist the members of oup 
armed forces overseas. 

The Government is greatly concerned about the delay in 
the calling of a Domini on -Provincial Conference for which 
it has been pressing for considerably more than a year. 
With brighter hopes of victory in Europe, the need for such 
a conference becomes increasingly in5)erative, and the Govern- 
ment has again asked that at least a preliminary meeting be 
held to settle the basic principles upon which inter- 
governmental cooperation must rest if sQme of the most 
important plans for post-war construction, rehabilitation 
and social services are to be prepared upon a workable basis. 

The public accounts for the year ending March 31st, 1944, 
have been issued, and estimates for the coming year will be 
placed before you* 

In conclusion, I wish to express the hope that Divine 
Providence may so guide your deliberations that your v;ork 
may promote the general welfare of the people of Ontario. 

His Honour was then pleased to retire. 

Prayers. 3:45 o» clock, p. m. 

■ MR. SPEAKER: I have received from His Honour a copy of 
his speech. Shall I read it, or will the reading be dispensed 

Reading dispensed with. 

MR. SPEAKER: I beg to inform the House that the Clerk 
has laid upon the table a return from the records of the Gener- 
al Election to the Legislative Assetably held on the 28th day of 
July and the 4th day of August, in 1943, and a subsequent by- 

ss - 

"to Toxiio baa bxusx. eoiri&i^ tsw :iiB'-i a'n»eyp rnif , xijw to 

^0O to rLifiimBVi 9r'' 

a^firf 7?j:'j- t^^-7! Tot ttbeiO 

i'QOis Oiu 

)1 &C^1 

B :i&&»l Sir 

>vo3 ©flT 
q £c©ecf sari "i 
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^'22 . 2-15-45. 

election held in the electoral district of Haldimand -Norfolk 
on 'the 13th and 20th of March, in 1944, showing: 

1. The number of votes polled for each 

■ candidate in each electoral district in Tjfliich 
there was a contest. 

2. The majority whereby each successful 
candidate" was returned. 

3. The total number of votes polled. 

4. The number of votes remaining unpolled. 

5. The number of names on the. polling lists. 
5. The number of ballot papers sent out to 

•ach polling plac«o 

7. The used ballot papers, 

8. The unused ballot papers, 

9. The rejected ballot papers* 

10. The cancelled ballot papers, 

11. The declined ballot papers, 

12. The ballot papers taken from polling 

13. Total number of printed ballots not dis- 
tributed to D.R.O*s. 

14. Total number of ballot papers printed. 

15. A general siimmary of votes cast in each 
electoral district. 

MR. SPEAKER: Introduction of bills. 

HON. LESLIE E. BLACK7JELL (Attorney General): Mr. 
Speaker, I move, seconded by the Provincial Treasurer (Mr, 
Frost), that leave be given to introduce a bill intituled, 
"An Act to provide for the voting of Active Service voters 
at a general election of the Assembly", and. that the sam« 
be now read for the first time. 


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- 24 - 2-15-45. 

Motion agreed to and bill read the first time. 

HON. GEORGE A, DREW (Prime Minister) : Mro Speaker, I 
beg to move, seconded by Mr. Frost, that the Speech of the 
Honourable the Lieutenant Governor be taken into considera- 
tion on Tuesday next. 

Motion agreed to, 

HON. GEORGE A. DREW (Prime Minister): Mr. Speaker, I 
move, seconded by Mro Blackwell, that the S-elect Standing 
Committees of this House tor the present Session be appointed 
for the following purposes: 

1. Privileges and Elections 

2. On Education 

3. On Miscellaneous Private Bills 

4. On Standing Orders 

5. On Public Accounts 

6. On Printing 

7. On Municipal Law 

8. On Legal Bills 

9. On Agriculture and Colonization 
10* On Fish and Gam* 

11. On Labour 

Said Committees shall severally be empowered to 
examine and enquire into all such matters and things as shalX 
be referred to them by the House, and to report from time to 
time their observations and opinions thereon, with power to 
send for persons, papers and records,. 

Motion agreed to. 

HON. GEORGE H. DUNBAR (Provincial Secretary) : Mr« 
Speaker, I wish to table a copy of the Public Accounts for 
the Province of Ontario for the year ended March 31, 1944. 

HON. GEORGE A. DREW (Prime Minister) : Mr. Speaker, ■ 

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- E5 - 2-15 -45 » 

before moving the adjournment of the House I beli«ve that it 
has been customary for the last few years to make some com- 
ment about absentees from the Chanfcer because of military 
service, and I loiow that each one of us hopes that during 
the course of the Session the two members who are now on 
active service will be back with us. I refer to the hono 
member for Riverdale (Mr. 7/ismer), who is overseas, and also 
to the hon. member for Duffer in -Simcoe {Mr. Downer), who is 
likewise serving abroad from Canada,, 

I feel sure we all hope that similar arrangements to 
those which were made last year will be made again, to make 
it possible for them to attend for the greater part of this 

I do want, personally, and I feel on behalf of the 
members of both sides of the Legislature, without regard to 
any other differences of opinion, to express my regret at 
the absence of the hon. Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Kennedy) , 
who unfortunately is still in the hospital, but who is recover- 
ing rapidly, and I feel sure will be with us before the end of 
the Session. 

I think perhaps it is worthy of comment that the Guard 
of Honour which was here in this Legislative Chamber to-day is 
unique, to this extent, insofar as these Sessions are concerned, 
in the fact that every one of those men has seen active service. 
They are men who, for one reason or another, have seen active 
service and are here on a day when the Canadian troops have 
reached the Rhine. I think perhaps it may be an encouraging 
symbolism that we should see these men here who themselves 
have engaged in active service. And, without enlarging in any 
way upon that aspect of the news which we have read to-day, I 
know that in the hearts of many of the members here there will 

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be cause for rejoicing that something which but a con^iarative- 
ly short time ago would have seemed so unlikely, has occurred, 
— the arrival of our troops at that historic German line of 
defence, —which we hope indicates the end of the European 
hostilities within a reasonable period. 

I will not add anything more to my remarks because 
there will be ample opportunity to speak on any of the sub- 
jects connected with legislation, except to say that we do ex- 
tend our sjmipathies on behalf of the whole House to any who 
have felt the full impact of war. 

There may be some other members who wish to speak be- 
fore I move the adjournmento 

MR. E. B. JOLLIFFE (Leader of the Opposition): Mr, 
Speaker, I would like to express our very sincere regret that 
the hon. Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Kennedy) is absent be- 
cause of illness. Itvms a cause of regret to us last year 
that he had the misfortune to be absent for much of the Session, 
and we all join in extending to him best wishes for his early 

I thinkj also, the members of the House should con- 
gratulate themselves on the excellent health and mortality 
record during the past year,. This is one occasion when we do 
not need to mourn the loss of any member of the House. 

I join with the hon. Prime Minister in expressing the 
hope that the two honourable and gallant members who are ab- 
sent on active service will find it possible to join us at 
some later stage in this Session, and in the hope, also, that 
they will be restored to civil life at an early date by the 
great advances of the armies of the United Nations which we 
are now witnessing overseas, 

HON. GEORGE A. DREW (Prime Minister): Mr. Speaker, I 

move the adjournment of the House. 

Motion agreed to and the House adjourned at 3:55, p.m. 

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- 27 - 


Toronto, Ontario, 

Friday, February 16, 1945* 

SPEAKER: Honoiirable William J« Stewart, C.B6E0 

The House met at 3 o'clock* 


MR, SPEAKER: Presenting petitions* 

Reading and receiving petitions. 

Reports by committees,- 


HON. LESLIE E. BLACKWELL (Attorney General): Mr» 
Speaker, as Chairman of the Select Committee of the Legis- 
lature appointed to consider the Active Service Election 
Act, the Voters' List Act and the Election Act, I have 
pleasure in reporting to the Legislature that the Gommi'ttee 
has concluded its deliberations and is now in a position to 
report, - not only report, but report unanimously, - to this 
Legislature, and I have pleasure in tabling the report. 

While I am on my feet, I woxild like to avail myself, 
Mr, Si)eaker, of this opportunity of making one or two obser- 
vations about the working of the Committee. I want to take 
this occasion, as Chairman, of expressing my personal 
appreciation, as such, of the objective efforts made by 
every member of that Committee, regardless of the several 
party affiliations, to do a good job on these statutes, 
and I can fairly say through all the sittings of the 

- TS - 

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©d* lo agiii^ lis d^oirid- ysb Y-t^iiJt ii&o 

- 28 - 2^16-45. 

Mr. Blackwell. 

Coimaittee the attitude of every member of the Committee was 
characterized by the desire to make a contribution to the 
Committee, and the toleration and forbearance toward the 
Chairman and the other members thereof. This morning, when 
the Committee finalized its report, I at that time took the 
liberty of making what might be termed an impertinent sugges- 
tion, and that was that the several members of the Committee 
representing, as they did, all the political parties repres- 
ented in this Legislature, might indicate to the members of 
thie respective parties the desirability of considering re- 
fraining from debating the provisions of the report, in view 
of the fact that it is anticipated that very shortly the 
Government will intjil*^duce legislation ii^ich will at least 
follow the report approximately, and that it might save 
duplication of debate if the bills were debated with refer- 
ence to the report at the time they come up for their respect- 
ive readings. That, of course, is merely a suggestion which 
I believe met with the approval of the different members of 
the Committee. It is, of course, open to any member of this 
House to follow whatever may be his opinion as to dealing 
with the rep or to 

I would like to make one final observation about the 
report, that although I have tabled it in advance of legisla- 
tion being introduced, a copy of the report will find its 
place on the desk of every member of the Legislatxireo 

MR. SPEAKER: Mot ions » 

Introduction of bills. 

Orders of the Day. 

MR. NELSON ALLES (North Essex): Mr. Speaker, I rise 
on a point of privilege to explain my new position in the 
House and to clear up any misunderstanding there might be 


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29 - 2-16-45. 

Mr. Alles. 

about ito 

As I said in my public statement some time ago, I 
am ready and willing to cooperate with any members of any 
political party or partieis to bring about needed legislation 
at this time. 

My own thinking has followed the thinking of my own 
riding and has reflected a trend there which I belieTe to 
be in miniature the trend of the whole province and possibly 
the whole country. 

It has been indicated that we shall take up serious- 
ly in this session plans for the post-war era, I know in my 
own riding that all the people are looking for reform legis- 
lation to ensxire their safety and seciirity in the future 
and to give them and their children a little more of the 
comfort, security and ease that goes with gracious living. 

I know these people are afraid that we cannot get to- 
gether on specific issues; I know they are afraid of political 
manoeuvering and strategy occupying our thoughts when we 
should be concentrating on achieving the things that will en- 
STire their future. 

They are afraid that we shall be the exponents of 
various political idealogies first and the representatives of 
the people second, -for the man in the street is neither a 
capitalist or a socialist, and is becoming very cynical. 
What he wants is teamwork that cuts across all political 
parties, -what I have referred to as non-partisan political 

And as for our various political philosophies, (and 
I might say that what was new a year ago is old to-day, ) the 
trend is definitely towards freer thinking, without regard to 
the old party lines. 

a sJ" 

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,a&ail x^'^^^l ^-^ 

- 30 ^ 2-16-45. 

MTo Alles, 

The theme song of to-day is "Don*t Fence Me In." 

So I have placed myself in a position where I can 
perhaps point out a trend and say that people want cooperation 
among all of us for progressive legislation and not propaganda 
speeches or bickering over past issues. 

I reiterate that I personally have no axe to grind and 
am looking toward the future rather than the past, and will co- 
operate to bring about the best aims that we are all here to 

MR. LESLIE HAircOCK (South Wellington) : Mr, Speaker, 
I rise to a matter of public interest, in view of the fact 
that I have recently severed my connection with our CCF Party, 
and am continuing for the balance of this Legislature as an. 
independent, some statement is due this House, giving the 
reasons for my action. 

Briefly, the major cause of my defection is the 
Isolationist Party policy of the CCF. A British statesman has 
rightly said that when three or more major parties emerge in a 
parliamentary democracy, coalitions are the order of the day. 
It is obvious that unless there are coalitions there cannot be 
stable government. 

The pronouncements of the leaders of my former party 
in this connection have invariably been that they wish to see 
a coalition of reactionary forces, coupled with the statement 
t^at in their opinion there is no difference between the two 
old parties, I cannot accept this view that there is no dif- 
ference between the party to my left and the party of the 
hon. member for Elgin (Mr. Hepbiirn). In my view that policy is 
not in the best interests of the province oi" the nation, either 
at this time or in the early post-war period. 

I continued with the party in the hope that a change of 

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lo asrxado a *adt aqjod t Y^^tSQ ®d* dJlw fiai/fll^rtoo I 

- 31 - 2-16-45. 

Mr. Hancock. 

policy toward democratic coalition would finally emerge, but 
to date of my resignation all signs indicated that CCF party 
leaders regard the isolationist plank as unchangeable. The 
effect of this policy in the ranks of organized labour is 
particularly to be regretted. For these reasons I am no 
longer connected with the party* 

The honourable the Leader of the Opposition stated 
only recently in Guelph that his party desires to cooperate 
with the spontaneous peoples' movements now rising in various 
parts of Europe. May I remind him that these movements are, 
in the main, democratic coalitions in which people of the same 
political faith as the hon. members for Bellwoods and St* 
Andrews are cooperating* 

In conclusion, Mr. Speaker^ may I say that the position 
I am taking has been arrived at only after mature thought, I 
shall be only too glad to discuss these and similar problems 
with any member of this House at any time, and there are no 
priorities; all are equally welcome. I have changed my seat, '*' 
but not my purpose, which is the same to-day as it was the day 
I accepted the nomination to run as a provincial candidate for 
Wellington South, - to cooperate with all who will work for 
the freedom and welfare of the common man. 

MR. SPEAiCER: Orders of the Bay. 

HON. GEORGE A. DREW (Prime Minister)? MTo Speaker, I 
had intended to proceed with the second reading of the bill 
which is on the Order Paper, but by reason of something which 
has arisen I do not propose to call the Orders of the Day« 
Unless there is something further, I move the adjournment of 
the Hoxise« 

MR. E. B. JOLLIEFE (Leader of the Opposition): Would 
the hon. Prime Minister (Mro Drew) be good enough to indicate 



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- 32 - 2-16-45o 

what we will likely be doing on Monday. I believe it was 
decided to go on with the Speech from the Throne on Tuesday. 
I presiime there will be other business for us on Monday. 

HON. GEOBGE A. DREW (Prime Minister): Yes. As I 
indicated, the intention was to proceed with this bill this 
afternoon, but my hon. friend has raised a question which 
is very proper, so we will not proceed with it to-day, but 
will proceed with the passage of the Act on Monday, and 
there will be other bills introduced at that time. The motion 
I made yesterday was that we proceed with the Speech from the 
Throne on Tuesday. 

Mr. Speaker, I move the House do now adjourn. 

Motion agreed to and the House adjourned at 3:E0, p.m. 

QjBV tJL svallacf I .y^baoli ao B^loJb ecf xl9:ilL XlJtw ev tasim 

I a; re^eiuiM emtil) WSHa .A aci. 

aiu.. . IV fi^e .t a aw rulfnp!. 

dotiiv aoXs&Bi>p a bealBa :: fao^niQSi.o 

Xi^b-ct ii. ditw bBBOOiq ion ' tieqotrq yrcav Bi 

Mt^ •01^ rfoeoqS dri* rfJxw 6««r YiJaMeJae^ ©fisci I 

^8 von o6 MSi/oIi BdS aror 

- 33 - 


Toronto, Ontario, 

Monday, February 19, 1945, 

SPEAKER: Honourable William J. Stewart, C.B.E. 

The House met at 3 o'clock. 

Prayers . 

MR. SPEAKER: Presenting petitions » 

Reading and receiving petitions. 

THE CLERK OF fflE HOUSE: The following petitions 
were read and received: 

Of the Corporation of the Town of Barrie, praying 
that an Act may pass authorizing the Petitioners to pur- 
chase the Barrie Arena from the Barrie Agricultural Arena, 
Limited, and to issue debentures of $30,000,000 in connec- 
tion therewith. 

Of the Corporation of the City of Welland, praying 
that an Act may pass validating an agreement between the 
Petitioners and the Erie Coach Lines, Limited, providing 
for one exclusive franchise to the said Erie Coach Lines, 

Of the Corporation of the City of Ottawa, praying 
that an Act may pass authorizing a change in the constitu- 
tion of the Board of Governors of the Royal Ottawa Sanatorium. 

Of the Corporation of the City of Woodstock, praying 
that an Act may pass validating a by-law and agreement to 
confer an exclusive ten-year franchise for the operation 
of buses made between the Corporation and the Bluebird 

- cs « 

1 I H T 

«i-i«w©;f8 .t mflilllW alcfB^i/oflDH ;fIS[:iA.5I^ 

.aloolo'o 5 Jfl 4-effl eauoH sxlT 

.sac.LitiJGq . iG'^T'T ■ h:::.-.^'i<T?- .am 

.anoj aoo^c 6tiB auifvdaH 

:oevx30d'x una DSi&'i snsw 
Sflix*'^^ ^elTiflhl lo nwoT ail* lo noUaaoqaoO edLt 10 

-TCiTcr o:f aianoJ-J-MsT aril ^ntxi 5 aaaar Y'8'ffl *3-^ ^^ i'firi* 

,*fioiA ijS'XifJxifSi.ia-i 9X1X34 3^ J ifloai &a9iA diiifta enj eseiio 
-o»xi 000,000,OSt to 8e ieb auasX o* ^xia ^beilniU 

Sfli^Baq ,6xi«lieS lo ^^-^ "oio'-ic;^ sua t^ 

9di iiaev^scf ^asaaert^ iie ;da.limbtJjiv tsBq '^^ab ^oA xu imtit 

8nx._. -., ,-,. .^ ,>^..xj jlOfloO aJtrta ^-^t ftnn nTBaolilie^L 

,«enxj riofloo dttZ i>i«8 »dt ot aalrioxiaol dvXa;/loxe eno aol 

SniYJ8i<I ,awB**0 lo x*-tO »rf^ ^<^ -^-^qioO er[;f 10 

"Utttsaoo 9dt r ^rio a ^atstioa^uA aaaq -^floi JoA oa tBdt 

^mutxo^MsiAQ swB^d"0 Xaxofl ariJ lo aionievox) lo 6iboS eri;f lo nol* 
^Jt^iB'Iq ,2ioo*Bi>ooW lo \ .. v> .arid' lo nol^raioq'ioD exW 10 

0* ^namaoosB fixiA wBl-'^^cr a ani^aJb^lBT eoBq ^caiB *aA as iadt 

oo±*Baaqo ad* lol eairionail xaaY-nad- avlaiJloxa xib Tielnoo 

Midai/IS exl* fina noii-aaoqnoO ed& aeavted ebi^ aaaad lo 

- 34 - 2-19-45. 

Coacli Lines, 

Of the Corporation of the City of Peterborough, pray- 
ing that an Act may pass authorizing the establishment of a 
Civic Hospital and the issue of debentures to the amount of 
$600,000,00 in connection therewith. 

Of the Incorporated Synod of the Diocese of Niagara, 
praying that an Act may pass extending the authority of the 
Petitioners in the matter of the investment of the general 
trust funds. 

Of the Corporation of the City of Kingston, praying 
that an Act may pass authorizing the establishment of a Com- 
munity Centre and a variation in the terms of a contract for 
rental and sale of property to Hiedel Bros,, Limited. 

Of the Evangelical Lutheran seminary of Canada, pray- 
ing that an Act may pass authorizing an increase in the nxjmber 
of members of the Board of the Seminary and an extension of 
the powers of the Board to hold real and personal property. 

Of the Corporation of the City of St. Thomas, praying 
that an Act may pass authorizing the said Corporation to estab- 
lish or acquire an airport, to close certain streets, and for 
other p\UT?oses. 

Of the Corporation of the City of Port Arthur, praying 
that an Act may pass authorizing the issue of debentures to the 
amount of $175,000,00 to aid in financing an extension to the 
Greneral Hospital of Port Arthxir. 

Of the Sacred Heart College of Sudbury, praying that an 
Act may pass raising the College to the status of a University 
to be known as the University of Sudbury. 

Of William A* Armstrong, Harold J, Badden, E. Roy 
Butlet, et al,, praying that an Act may pass authorizing the 
incorporation of a Club to be known as the Kingsboro Club and to 



.esflti rtoaoO 


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i«cfflu/fl a:' teaoT 

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Xi"iai9virtU a to zu^ata odi ot e^elloO erIJ aotalai aaaq ysoi.^oA 

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en':f 31: , tuB aaaq -^aa ^oA xxa 4'ad;t s^-^'^^q «*^^ 

- 34 - 2-19-45. 

borrow money and purchase property for the purposes of the 

Of the Corporation of the Township of Crowland, pray- 
ing that an Act may pass authorizing the Petitioners to make 
a grant of $10,000.00 out of its surplus funds to the Wellcuad- 
Crowland Health and Recreational Centre. 

Of the Corporation of the City of Toronto, praying 
that an Act may pass authorizing the said Corporation to 
establish and appoint a permanent Planning Board* 

Of the Corporation of the City of Toronto, praying 
that an Act may pass authorizing the Corporation to pass by- 
lavs for slum clearance and low housing projects, to pay 
certain debenture interest in funds of the United states or 
Canada and for- other piirposes. 

Of the Corporation of the Village of Swansea, praying 
that an Act may pass authorizing the said Corporation to pur- 
chase a certain water main on Ellis Avenue from the City of 
Toronto and to purchase certain waterworks plant from the 
Township of York. 

MR. SPEAKER: Presenting reports by committees. 


HON. GEORGE A. DREW (Prime Minister): Moved by myself, 
seconded by Mr. Frost (Provincial Treasurer), "That during the 
present Session of the Legislative Assembly provision be made 
for the taking of stenographic reports of debates and speeches, 
and to that end that the Honourable the Provincial Treasurer be 
authorized to employ the necessary stenographers at such rates 
of compensation as may be agreed to by him, copies of the said ' 
stenographic reports to be supplied to the leaders of the 
various parties aj'epresented in the House, to the Clerk of the 
House and to the Legislative Library." 


- ^ - 

odi lo aezoqxtsq edi lot xtidqoiq enado'Cfq baa Y®fio«[ wofLod 

-■^•iq ,ftaslirr aioqicoo ofi" 

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10 ••;»flJa &©;tidU erf:r lo aJbfli;? nl taoie^ni. o-rifcf-necfaJb nlB:}'TeQ 

.B&aoqouq aaaic aoi i^m) aa^iiB'^j 
3flJr?«Tcq ,«aBn«Wci lo e^BXiiV 
-liJq ct BOt&anrnTTCi^ iiaa srf* nr i asjB<T vam ■ fadt 

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..w^JBBnaqiaoa lo 


- 35 - 2-19-45. 

MISS AGNES UACPIIAIL (York East): Mr. Speaker^ I 
would like to ask the Prime Minister if he would consider 
having a copy made for each membero It is a little awkward, 
as I am sure it is awkward for the Prime Minister, for all 
the Party members to have access to but one copy. 

MR. DREW: I will be very glad to take that up. Last 
Session the leaders were supplied with the flimsy sheets pre- 
pared by the stenographers, but I will take it up with them, 
and see what can be done to have them subsequently mimeo- 
graphed, which would take a little longer. 

Motion agreed to. 

HON. GEORGE A. DREW (Prime Minister): Moved by myself, 
seconded by Mr. Frost (Provincial Treasurer), "Ordered, that 
a Select Committee be appointed to act with I^lr. Speaker in the 
control and management of the Library, such Committee to be 
composed as follows; 

"Messrs. Ilanna (Chairman), Arnott, Laurier, MacLeod, 
MCEwing, Overall, Reynolds, Robertson and Scott. 

"The Q,uorum of the said Committee to consist of three 

MR. A. A. MacLEOD (Bellwoods): If I remember correct- 
ly, I was on this Committee last" year, and no meeting of the 
Committee was held. I am Just wondering if there is any re- 
cord of this particular Committee ever having met since pro- 
vision was made for it during the life of this Legislature. 

MR. DREW: I feel sure the Chairman of the Committee 
will be most anxious to hold meetings if it is suggested, and 
the suggestion would, I feel sure, be welcomed. But, since 
the question has'^been raised, there is one thing I would like 
to make quite clear in case any wrong impression should be left: 
we have one of the finest Legislative libraries in existence, 


- ac - 

I ^lealBeqB aaa aCttoY) 

LLa icl ,ie;f:' dWJiWB eJ: ^t eniia ma I aa XlJns jjp©adi/8 xn&iiJ" ovi' .^aoh 30 ajiw asa i)nB 

'SftflTiuq ^-^■^,t■l' 

*ari;^ .fieieJbrtO" , (latuaBarr: 

^b09 '"'»"' 


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l>Iae 81I 

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ad^f -li'aeffi on bna .iBeY *^aBX ae-^ 

-oaq eonia j©xa 3x1.. sts aaj: 

.ernji-fllalgaJ Bi.;:t : ~ alii sri^ 
aaJ#liamoO arlJf lo oBm-xie 
j[>nfi ,69^^86331/8 Bit -li^aar 

3"ldl ad bluoda aoiae^iqnix saoaw y. 

.eonod^alro at aeJtiBidil arii-alaisaJ d-aoi 

.- . ^oeXeB a 

■iiii Ioi:;fxioo 
8wr 3B baaoqaoo 

IXfltcovO jgniw'^: 

jv I ,yX 

xaq 8 1)100 

ef>spi Bflw noMiy 

vcHB d-BOifl ad XX iw 
1 8 ©3^1/6 aril 

.Beio ei ■ im 0$ 

evBd dw 

- 36 - 2-19-45. 

and I sometiines wonder whether all the members themselves, 
as well as others to whom the library is accessible, are 
fully aware of the quality of the library, I wish to pay 
tribute to those in charge of the library and the 
librarians for the maintenance of one of the finest 
libraries we have. Time and time again I have been 
able to get books from that library that I could not get 
elsewhere. I can only close by saying I know the 
Committee would welcome more frequent meetings* 

Motion agreed to. 

HON. GEORGE A, DREW (Prime Minister): Moved by 
myself, seconded by Mr. Frost, "Ordered, That a select 
Committee be appointed to direct the expenditure of any 
sum set apart in the Estimates for Art Purposes, such 
Committee to be composed as follows: 

"Messrs. Duckworth (Chairman, Begin, Casselraan, 
Hepburn (Prince Edward-Lennox), Oliver, Robson, Salsberg, 
Taylor (Huron), Warren, 

"The Quorum of the said Committee to consist of 
three members." 

MR. WILLIAM DUCICT/ORTH (Dovercourt) : Have I been 
Chairman of this Committee before? If so, I have never 
known the Committee. I think this Committee shotold 
function, and if I have been the Chairman of the Committee 
for the last seven or eight years, and did not know it, 
I want to know this time. 

HON. GEORGE A. DREW (Prime Minister): Mr. Speaker, 
I am sure again everyone will welcome activity of the 
Committee, I am informed Mr. Duckworth has not been the 
Chairman for the past six or seven years, but, nevertheless, 
I do assure him everyone will welcome meetings of that 
Committee. It may be a matter of interest to the members 

9 -IB , 


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Yd fievoKI 

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t SS^BPI,. 






,d-i ;7o: 


U »n- /-.irf--ici.-< c 

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\/ ji. » 

- 37 - 2-19-45. 

to know as a result of the Committees of the past we have 
a collection of Canadian ilrt in this huilding which has 
become extremely valuable for the future, and that Committee 
has a very good duty to perform in gathering future art. 

ISR. V/ILLIAl.r DUCKWORTH (Dover court) ; I desire to 
call the Committee together, 

Iffi. SPEAKER: You are not the Chairman, 

l-m, JOSEPH B. 3ALSBERG (St. Andrew): I want to 
utilize this opportunity by congratulating the Government 
for their choice of the Chairmanship of this Committee, as 
one who is proposed to serve on the Committee, and I shall 
be glad to be guided by the Chairman proposed by the Govern- 

MR. Edward B. Jolliffe (Leader of the Opposition): 
I do not know that the last speech was in order, because I 
think it was in the nature of a campaign speech by the 
Chairman of the Committee as well as the honourable gentle- 

I would just like to draw the attention of the House 
to the fact that since the last Session another work has been 
added to this, (E believe in this building,) because of the 
presentation and the unveiling of the portrait of the last 
Speaker of this House. Perhaps not everyone in the House 
is aware of it. I suggest we take note of it now. I am not 
sure where it is hung, but it was unveiled in the month of 

MR, DUCKWORTH: I object to the statement of the 
hon. Leader of the Opposition — 

MR. SPEAKER: Shall the motion carry? 

MR. DUCKWORTH: I object to his making canpaign 
speeches o 

MR. SPEAKER: I am standing, Mr. Duckworth. Shall 


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• 38 - 2-19-45 • 

the motion carry? 

Motion agreed to. 

MR. SPEAKER: I might say to the hon. members that I 
am their servant, but when the Speaker rises, hon. members 
will please take their seats » 

HON. GEORGE A. DREW (Prime Minister) : I beg to 
move, Mr. Speaker, seconded by Mr. Frost, that a select 
committee of eleven members be appointed to prepare and 
report with all convenient despatch lists of the members to 
compose the Select Standing Committees ordered by the House, 
such committee to be composed as follows: 

' Messrs. Anderson, Belanger, Kelly, MacLeod, McPhee, 
Miller, Murdoch, Porter, Robinson (Waterloo South), Stewart 
(Kingston) and Strange. 

The Quorum of the said committee to consist of 
three members* 

Motion agreed to. 

MR. SPEAKER: Further motions? 

Introduction of bills. 

&IR. R. P. VIVIAN (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, 
I move, seconded by Mr. Dunbar, that leave be given to intro- 
duce a bill intituled "An Act to amend the Mental Hospitals* 
Act", and the same be now read the first time. 

MR. EDWARD B. JOLLIFFE (Leader of the Opposition): 
Would the hon. Minister eiplain briefly? 

MR. VIVIAN: It is to clarify the procedure for appre- 
hending escaped patients. 

Motion agreed to and Bill read the first time, 

HON. R. P. VIVIAN (Minister of Health): Mr, Speaker, 
I move, seconded by I4r, D\inbar, that leave be given to intro- 
duce a bill intituled "An Act to amend the Children»s Pro- 

- 39 - 2-19-45. 

tection Act", and that the same be now read the first time. 

Motion agreed to. 

First reading of the Bill. 

MR. JOLLIFFE: Y/hat is the nature of the bill? 

MR. VIVIAN: Mr. Speaker, it is to clarify the 
definition of "neglected child"* 

HON. -.VESLEY G, TliOLlPSON (Minister of Lands and 
Forests): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by !ir. Dailey, that 
leawe be given to introduce a bill intituled "An Act to 
amend the Territorial Division Act", and that the same be 
now read the first time. 

Motion agreed to and bill read the first time. 

MR, xlRTIIUR A. CASSELMAN (Nipissing): Would the hon. 
Minister give us some idea of the purpose of the Act? 

MR. THOMPSON: Mr. Speaker, some years ago there was 
an Act put through the House changing the name of a township. 
At that time there was a township kno?ra as "Coffin" and 
"Coffin B". The named was changed from "Coffin" to "Angus", 
but no mention was made of "Coffin B", and this is correctr 
ing that error. 

Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by Mr. Daley, that 
leave be given to introduce a bill intituled "An Act to amiend 
the Siirveys'Act, 1945", and that same be now read the first 

Motion agreed to and bill read the first time. 

MR. SPEAKER: Introduction of bills? 

MR. EDWARD B. JOLLIFFE (Leader of the Opposition): Mr, 
Speaker, I move, seconded by Ulr, Straige (Brentford), that this 
House do now adjourn, and I do so for the purpose of discussing 
a matter of urgent immediate importance* 

I refer to the situation with respect to the supply 

- 40 - 2^19-45. 

Mr. Jolliffe, 

and distribution of fuel which has developed throughout this 
province during recent weeks. 

May I first of all acknowledge freely that I am 
aware, as every other hon. member of the House is aware, 
that the Government is not wholly responsible for the con- 
dition whicfc exists o We are a?;are that conditions hav^e been 
made much more difficult by the weather of recent weeks, by 
an unusually cold January, and by heavy snowfalls which 
have interfered with transportation facilities. 

We are also aware that the condition is not peculiar 
to our own province of Ontario, but that neighbouring states 
in the United States of America have been experiencing diffi- 
culties alsoo We are aware also that in some measure, at 
least, control over the supply and distribution of fuel is 
exercised by federal authority. 

Recognizing all these facts, Mx, Speaker, it is still 
true that the emergency conditions vfoich have arisen recently, 
and Tuftiich exist to-day, do require some action on the part 
of the Provincial Government. Not only are conditions bad 
to-day, but they might easily become worse. Another period 
of extremely cold weather, and possibly another heavy snow- 
fall, would bring very real suffering to tens of thousands of 
homes throughout this province. My information is that 
much inconvenience ar^d considerable suffering already exists. 

The condition of shortages, and the conditions under 
which deliveries cannot be satisfactorily attained, are not 
only affecting' the health and ^welfare of many of our people, 
but also have interfered, to some extent, with war production, 
because they heve disturbed the routine of war v/orkers and prevent* 
ed many of them from obtaining proper fuel supplies for their 

- 41 - 2-19-45. 

Mr. Jolliffe. 

I suggest, MTo Speaker, that some facilities of the 
Provincial Government might well have been used to supple- 
ment the ordinary, normal facilities which exist in many of 
our larger centres. Although I know there are many other 
\ises for them, I have in mind the emergency which should 
fully justify the use of many of the motor trucks owned and 
operated by the Provincial Government, to assist in 
facilitating deliverieso 

I should have tho\:ight, also, that the Provincial 
Fuel Committee appointed at the last Session of the House 
should have had jurisdiction to investigate the whole fuel 
problem, and not merely one aspect of the problem, and might 
have been able to provide a solution for the present crisis 
before it arose. 

After all, these crises are foreseeable; we had no 
right to expect we would be as fortunate this year as w© 
were last, when unusually mild weather saved the province 
from the same condition which exists to-day« 

I would point out, also, in some areas in, I believe, 
the neighbouring State of New York, the delivery of coal to 
non-essential users has been stopped, and I would have thought 
that procedure could have been followed in many cities and 
towns of Ontario, and would have been fully justified in 
recent weeks o 

I am concerned that the conditions do not get worse, 
and I appeal to the Government to take whatever action may 
be taken by the Provincial Government to guard against the 
results of a continued shortage, or of a renewed period of 
very cold weather, or of another snowfallo 

After all, it was acknowledged to this House in the 
budget debate last year by the Provincial Treasurer (Iiiro • 

- 42 - 2-19-45, 

Mr» Jolliffe. 

Daley) that we had been very fortunate last year, and I think 

he referred to the serious danger that there would be a real 

shortage this year if there was a heavy winter. That was 

also acknowledged by the hon. Prime Minister (LITo Drew) at 

an earlier date, speaking on the radio, in July of 1943, 

when the Prime Minister said, and I quote: 

"Adequate supplies at reasonable prices of 
fuel, milk and other basic necessities will be 
assured by effective 'dtganization and administra- 
tive control. Representatives of labour, veterans* 
organizations, and the consuming public will be 
appointed to all boards dealing with these 

So that the hon. Prime Minister (Mr. Drew) was well 

aware at that time of the importance of taking the necessary 

measures to protect our people in connection with this 


I raise the question to-day, because I am sure that 
to-day, just as much as in July of 1943, the provincial 
administration has a measure of responsibility for institut- 
ing that effective organization and administrative control 
to which the hon. Prime Minister referred in July of 1945o 

I am not going to deal with the details of the 
situation, many of which have been drawn to the attention of 
members of this House throughout the province. The time 
allotted to us in discussing matters of this kind is limited 
to ten minutes, and I, therefore, content myself with an 
appeal to the Government to institute that measure of ef- 
fective organization and administrative control whicQi will 
Improve the present situation, before it gets any worse. 

MR. ROBERT D. THORNBERRY (Hamilton Centre): Mr„ 
Speaker, I support the statements made by the previous 
speaker in regard to the fuel situation, I can only state 
the situation which exists in my own city of Hamilton j where 

- 43 - 2-19-45. 

Mr. Thornberry. 

we have the ridiculous picture of people haiiling bags of 
fuel in small sleighs, not wholly because there is no trans- 
portation, but because there is a very definite shortage of 
fuel and the dealers are restricted to selling fuel in such 
small amounts o 

I feel that the Govemraent, in view of its Point 
No. 19, has been fully aware of the growing crisis, because 
it is something which has come on the country not rapidly; 
it goes back some years. In 1942, 16,000 gas-heating 
furnaces in the city of London had to be dismantled because 
of the shortage of gas, necessitating fuel-heating units of 
a different tjrpe to bum coal and cokCo 

There was ample indication that steps should be 
taken to assure an adequate supply. 

Now, the production in Canada we find in 1944 dropped 
from 17,800,000 tons to 17,000,000 tons, a drop of 800,000 
tonSo That is also evidence that the question of fuel 
supplies should have been dealt with and dealt with in a 
manner that would have ensured the people against any short- 

Now, out in Saskatchewan the Gowernment has 
taken immediate steps by making plans for setting up plants 
that will process tl^ soft or steam coal, eLLlowing for the 
use of the gas and by-products of that nature. But anyone 
^o has been in Hamilton knows that the city has simply a 
pall of smoke hanging over it from the burning of soft coal. 

Millions and millions of feet of gas are being wasted 
which could heat thousands of furnaces, and in view of that 
situation, Mr, Speaker, I am supporting the motion, and hope 
that the Government will take immediate necessary steps, 

MISS AGNES 1,IACPHAIL (East York) : I want to say only 
a sentence or two. I have done some speaking throughout 

- 44 - 2-19-45 o 

Miss Macphail 
Mr, Dennis on 

the country betvseen Sessions, and I have foxind when I was 
addressing audiences there was one question which alv;ays 
came up, and that was "Where will we get coal?". 

Very often I was not making political speeches, 
but speaking as a director of the United Farmers' Cooperative 
Company, and v;hen we asked them what they would like the 
Company to do, or if they had any suggestions, they invariab- 
ly made sugg.estions about coal, saying "Why don»t you send 
us coal?", or "What are we going to do for coal?" 

That does not apply to counties like Grey and Bruce, 
where the farmers usually burn wood, but it does apply to 
other parts of the province, where wood is not obtainable 
and they want to get coal and have found difficulty in getting 

MR. WILLIAM DENNISON (St, David): Mr. Speaker, I 
would like to urge that every man who may be available in the 
various departments of the province be made available now for 
this worko It is not only trucks, - it is men, and the local 
Selective Service are not able at the present time to give 
the dealers the men they need to supply the fuelo Each day 
many vehicles remain idle all day long, because the men are 
not available to drive them in this emergencyo 

The local fuel exchange is getting five hundred re- 
quests each day for fuel, but is only able to fill a certain 
number of them, I am not sure of the number they do fill, 
but there are many pe;ople iisiio are going without fuel. 

In regard to war workers, I was informed by a fuel 
dealer this morning that he had several war workers this 
morning showing him slips they had from their war industries 
notifying them they were excused for the day in order that 
th®y might use a hand sleigh to go to the local fuel yard 

- 45 - 2-19-45» 

MTo Dennlson. 

and get some fuel to keep their homes warm. 

This emergency has reached a stage where I think 
emergency measures are called for, and we should be prepar- 
ed« just the same as the municipalities in the province 
are now supplying as many men as they have to spare , the 
provincial department should also be prepared to supply as 
many men and vehicles as they can spare in this emergency. 

MR. JOSEPHS. SALSBERG (St. Andrew): Mr, Speaker, 
I rise to support the motion moved by the hon. Leader of 
the Opposition (Mr, Jolliffe), although I will say quite 
frankly that I expected, when I heard him begin his remarks, 
that he wo\ild make some more concrete proposals than he did. 

I agree that this calls for the intervention of the 
Provincial Government, It is a provincial problem of a 

serious nature, a problem which, at any rate, the Govern- 

it should 
ment should assume responsibility for, and/do everything in 

its power to alleviate the situation,, 

I am conscious of the fact that the Importation of 
coal is not entirely a provincial responsibility, nor even 
within its exclusive jurisdictiono As a matter of fact, It 
is arranged, I understand, on a basis of ainual quotas between 
the Federal Government of Canada and the authorities in 
Washington, It is a fact, however, that the Provincial 
Government can and, therefore, should, do something, very 

May I also remind the House that during the. last war, 
as I have been advised by Mr. Harris, the Commissioner of Works 
of the city of Toronto, the Provincial Government of that day 
appointed a provincial Fuel Controller in the person of Mr<, 
Harris, who was borrowed from the city of Toronto, and having 
had the privilege of being a chairman of a coal committee in 

- 46 - 2-19-45. 

Llr. Salsberg. 

the city of Toronton in 1943, I had occasion to listen to the 
activities of Mr, Harris in the capacity of the provincial 
Fuel Controller« 

He did quite a bit at the time to secure coal, to 
allocate coal frcci one locality to another, to switch trains 
and cars of coal to where it was most urgently required — 

HON. GEORGE A. DBEW (Prime Minister): Mr. Speaker, 
I do not v/ant to interrupt the hon. member (Mr, Salsberg), 
but I suppose he knows he is referring to the Controller 
for the province appointed by the Dominion Government, and 
not a controller appointed by the provincoo 

MR. SALSBERG: Mr. Speaker, I would not mind being 
corrected, but my information, as I understood it, and as I 
got it from MTo Harris, was that he was called by the 
Premier of the Provincial Government of the day. I may be 
mistaken, but I understood he was called upon by the Premier 
of the province at that time, and was asked to act on be- 
half of the province in handling the fuel crisis which pre- 
vailed at that time. If I am \7rong, I am willing to stand 
corrected, but that w^as definitely my impression of Mr*, 
Harris» position at that timeo 

I would say, therefore, that some emergency action 
is required. I believe that other hon. members of the House 
have the experience, as have I, of receiving countless 
numbers of calls from constituents who are in need of coal, 
and when I tell them that the province has no facilities, 
and has no apparatus to which I can even refer them, they 
find it difficult to understand, and so do I, 

I would suggest that this House agree to set up a 
special committee of the House to deal with the problem from 
day to day as an emergency requirement , and give whatever 

- 47 - 2-19-45, 

direction is possible and whatever assistance is possible 
to the crisis in the province as far as coal is concerned. 

If the mover of this motion would agree I would sug- 
gest that this be incorporated, or I will move an amendment — 

MR. ANDERSON: The motion is no^t amendableo 

MR. SALSBERG: — that a committee of the House be 
appointed to deal with this question — 

ISR, SPEAICER: The motion is not debatable. 

MR. SALSBERG: Then, I will leave it as a proposal 
and respectfully suggest that the Government take it into 
consideration, - that is, the setting-up of a committee ot 
this character to deal, on behalf of the province and in con- 
junction with the hono Minister, with this emergency situa- 
tion, and possibly be able to help solve this problem and 
to deal with it from day to day, 

Iffio WILLIAM DUCK'TORTH ( Dover court ) : MTo Speaker, 
I would like to be on that committee, 

im. DENNISON: So would I„ 

DR. DREW: Mr, Speaker 9 I would like to point out that 
as far as the motion is concerned, the motion is simply one to 
adjourn to discuss a matter of importance, and I recognize it 
is a matter of importanceo 

And, as you have noticed, I have raised no objection 
of any kind to the discussion, and, for my own part, I welcome 
the discussion. 

It is important that we recognize the things we can do 
and the things we cannot do, and it is going to save a lot of 
time if we avoid a mere parading of what might appear to be 
good talk being reported outside, but whicli is known 
perhaps not to have any bearing on the actual things which can 
be done. 

- 48 - 2-19-45. 

Now, the purchase of fuel in the United States, as 
has already been indicated by one of the hon, members, the 
transportation of the fuel here, the prices of the fuel, 
the handling a£ the fuel, as far as man power is concerned, 
and the delivery of the fuel, is all entirely under th« 
jurisdiction of the Dominion Government under its war powers, 
and I am not in any way forgetful of the position we took in 
regard to the things that we would do, but naturally those 
things are subject, always, to the over-riding pqwers of the 
Dominion Government tinder its war-measure powers o 

That does not mean that we have not made an effort 
to arouse a full appreciation of the situation, but I may say 
that not only on this occasion, but on other occasions, we 
have done our utmost to impress upon the Dominion Government 
the necessity for action under the wider powers they possesso 
We have had discussions on this subject as recently as the 
last few days, 

I recognize, and my colleagues recognize, the serious*- 
ness of the situation. One of the things which has caused 
that is something over which we have no control, and 'that is 
the unparalleled blockade of transportation in th© coal- 
mining areas of the United States. Another thing, as every 
hon. member here knows, - and I am not in any way discussing 
the issue, - was the tie-up in production, through strikes in 
the coal mining areas, which also has had a very considerable 
effect on the present shortage in the reserves of coal. 

Now, as for the suggestion that we should set up some 
body to deal with these matters: we have the power to deal with 
them, so long as the over-riding war powers of the Dominion 
Governnent are not operating, as they do, in the whole field 
of fuel handling, distribution and control at the present time^ 
and also in the case of man power. 

- 49 - 2-19-45. 

Now, the suggestion has been made that men should be 
made available from the provincial organization to do this 
work. May I say to the hon, members that if it had not been 
for the fact that the men working for the Provincial Govern- 
ment have been going long hours, far beyond any of the hours 
we suggest as the ordinary limit for wDrk around here — if 
they had not been working through whole nights without sleep- 
ing, at all, on the snow ploughs and tractors of this province, 
keeping the roads open, there would not have been deliveries 
even as there have been. The people of this province may well 
be proud of the magnificent efforts of the men in the provincial 
organizations who have worked day and night to keep these roads 
open and in that way assist the situation very greatly, 

I welcome the suggestion that we do everything we can 
to stimulate the interest of the Dominion Government in the 
handling of this. In so far as the present situation is con- 
cerned, I, for one, am quite prepared to agree that steps could 
have been taken long in advance of the present to have increased 
reserves of coal under the Dominion powers to meet just such a 
situation as we now face. But the suggestion did not meet with 
the approval of those who have the authority, and no matter how 
much we might like to do so, we cannot force action on the part 
of those who, under the War Measures' Act, have both the 
responsibility and the legal power. 

Now, it has, to a considerable degree, been the result 
of lack of foresight on the part of those who are handling the 
control of fuel at Ottawa, and that is not because of any fail- 
ure on the part of this Government to try to draw attention to 
the need for anticipating such a possibility. We will press for 
such action as can be taken, not forgetting that apart from any 
lack of action on their part, there has always been a situation 

- 50 - 2-19-45. 

lJlr» Drew. 
Mr. Brovm. 

in this province, so far as snow is concerned, that no one 
in this Leglslatvire can possibly foretell, 

MR. HOWARD E. BROTWI (Welland): I wonder if the hon. 
Prime Minister (Mr. Drew) could tell us the date that the 
Dominion authorities took control of the coal situation. TTas 
it before 1943, or when was it that the Dominion Government 
took complete control? 

MR. DREW: I cannot give the hon. member (Mr. Brown) 
the exact date, but I will be happy to get it for him and 
furnish him with ito 

MR, BROWN: Was this before 1943, or since? 

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Prime Minister says that the 
information will be furnished as to the exact date. 

Iffi. DREW: I can assure the hon. member it was before 
we took office, 

MR. BROWN: It was before? 

IvIR. DREW: Yes. 

MR. BROWN: The hon. Prime Minister has told us the 
things we can do and the things we cannot do, but in July of 
1943 we were told definitely that if this Government were 
elected it would take a definite step to plan this thing, 
whether it was food or whether it was fuel, or whatever it 
was, and now they come along and say we must recognize the 
things we can do and the things we cannot do. 

It seems to me we should do this recognizing when 
we start to make our political promises, rather than after 
we get into office. 

For that reason, Mr. Speaker, I think it is well 
that this discussion should go on, and see if we cannot 
formulate some plan to alleviate the distress there is in 
the province at the present time. 

- 51 - 2-19-45. 

Mr. Drew, 

MR. DREW: Mr. Speaker, I will just deal with this in 
a word. The speech, of course that was made was made for a 
purpose which had nothing to do with the solution of the fuel 

MR. ARTHUR A. CASSELI.IAH (Nipissing) : Mr. Speaker, I 
object to that statement. 

MR. DRM: But it had to do with an \mdertaking that 
was given when neither we nor anybody else had any reason to 
believe that this war was going on as it now has, and as long 
as the war goes on, the Dominion Government exercises power 
under its authority. 

Now, since the hon. member has been so concerned about 
this, I might explain that the Fuel Controller was appointed 
in the summer of 1942, and from that time on there has been an 
exercise of authority, but insofar as powers are concerned, I 
can assure the hon. member that we are not going to adopt 
parellel legislation, but will, under the powers which exist, 
do everything we can to see that tMs situation is met. 

MR. L. CxREIVE ROBINSON (South v/aterloo) : I want to add 
one word briefly, and that is a reference to the extenuating 
circumstances put forward in connection with a particularly 
long winter and the great amount of snow which we have had. 
The one thing which appeals to me is this, and it comes to me 
very strongly, Mr. Speaker, if we are not able to plan for a 
matter which in a sense could be expected, as compared to what 
we are going to have to face in terms of planning when this 
war is finished — if we are not able to plan for this seeming- 
ly trivial matter, what may v/e expect in the future from the 

MR. DRE7/: I assume that the hon. member knows that- 
there is legislation actually in existence tinder which we can 

- 52 - 2-19-45. 

LIT . Drew 

act with full authority the moment the War Measures* Act is with- 
drawn, but the i,7ar Measures* Act at the present time supersedes 
many provincial authorities, and nothing but hopeless confusion 
would result if we attempted to exercise authority we did not 
possess, and I hope the hon. member is not suggeating'we do that, 

lAE. ROB INSOI^ (South Waterloo): May I reply to that? 

MR. SPEMER: After this, there v/ill only be one address 
on a subject, 

MR. ROBINSON (South Y/aterloo) : Surely this point is 
clear to all of us, that when the promise was made that "There 
will be adequate supplies at reasonable prices of fuel, milk, 
and other basic necessities, which will be assured by effective 
organization and administrative control" — surely, when that 
point v/as being concocted, the fact was that the War Measures 
Act' had occurred, and should have been in the possession of 
those who concocted that particular pointo 

MR. DREW: I do not want to labour, the point, but' I h.op# 
they were also in the possession of the party to which the hon. 
member belongs when they drafted the same thing, 

MR... M. F. HEPBURN (Elgin): They were not called upon 
to make good their promises, 

MR. BLACCTELL: No, and they never will be, 

MR. CYRIL OVERALL (Niagara Falls): I should like to 
ask a question of the hon. Prime Minister. Last year they had 
a Fuel Commission bring In a report, and I would like to know 
if this i^uel Commission which brought in a report on lignite 
was consulted with regard to the critical situation which has 
now developed in respect to coal, 

MR. SPEAKER: I think the hon. Minister oould answer 
that question* 

HON. LESLIE M. FROST (Minister of Mines):- I might 

- 52 - 2-19-45. 

Mr. Frost, 

say in connection with this fuel situation that vre have real- 
ly given the matter a very great deal of consideration. The 
fact is this, that in the province of Ontario we are so 
situated that we are dependent practically altogether upon 
outside supplies. We are dependent eithetr upon shipments 
from the United States, or dependent on shipments from Nova 
Scotia or Alberta. I would not want any member of the House 
to think we have not been giving this a great deal of consider- 
ation. Over the last several months we have been in consul- 
tation, quite extensively, with our opposite member in 
Alberta, Llr. Tanner, and the Hon. Mr, Cinrrie, in Nova Scotia, 
in connection with that particular problemo 

The difficulty we are faced with at the present time 
is that we have all manner of wartime controls which are con- 
fronting us and preventing us from doing anything^ It is 
tragic that the provinces of Ontario and Quebec are tied up 
by reason of the fact that there is not in Canada such a thing 
as a national fuel policy. For years it has been talked about, 
but very few concrete steps have been taken. We have tried to 
face up with that problem, and only to-day I had a communi- 
cation from the hon. Minister of Mines of Nova Scotia, Hon. 
l,lr. Currie, in connection with that questiono 

With regard to doing anything at the present time, we 
have this situation: we have the Dominion Govemnant inter- 
vening —and, after all, properly intervening — in connection 
with almost everything under the liVar Measures Act. ^e have, 
for instance, the Dominion Government intervening in connec- 
tion with the distribution of power, and, goodness knows, those 
of you rrom southwestern Ontario know that the Dominion Govern- 
ment has intervened to a very great extent in connection with 
the distribution and sale of artificial gas. 

- 53 - 2-19-45. 

Ivlr. Frost « 

To try and arrive at anything concrete in the mat- 
ter of fuel policy in Canada is very difficiilt for this 
reason, that man power is definitely under the control of 
Dominion authority, and we have the same thing in connec- 
tion with transportation and in connection with deliveries. 
We feel that it is unfortunate that Ontario and Quebec are 
in the position they are as regards fuel, and I think that 
is one of the great things we have to do in oUr after-the- 
war planning to meet that situation, and I think it is one 
of the necessary reasons that makes a Dominion-provincial 
conference so necessary. A Domini on -Provincial conference 
could cover a tremendous range of subjects which would un- 
do the difficult restrictions we have in Canada in connec- 
tion with the use of our natural resources. If any govern- 
ment had stepped in in the month of August, 1943, and 
endeavoured to bring about a solution of the present fuel 
difficulties, it would, of course, have been out of the 
question, but I say it is not outside the sphere of this 
Qrovernment or other Provincial Governments in Canada to 
face up with the problem and solve it as soon as we are per- 
mitted to do so. 

I feel in the present situation we, of course, are 
confronted with other things. We have the people them- 
selves. You go out into the country and tell people to fill 
up their cellars, that there is a fuel shortage coming, but 
there is always a residue who cannot do it, or will not do 
it, and that is one of the complicating difficulties of the 
present situation. 

I feel this, that we, as representatives of the 
people, should recognize there is a solution to this situa- 
tion, but it is not a solution that can be brought about by 

- 54 - 2-19-45, 

Mr. Frost, 

this or any other government at the present time. 

MR. OTERAIX: Mr. Speaker, I have not received an 
answer to my question. The question was, "Did you consult 
the Fuel Commission appointed last year with regard to the 
critical fuel shortage?" 

MR. FROST: That Committee vi&s appointed, in the 
first place, to look into the lignite properties, and hon. 
members opposite know that was very extensively done, and I 
think the fullest information was given to the House on that 

On the other hand, we have had some investigation by 
the Fuel Commission in regard to the natural-gas problem, in 
southwestern Ontario, upon which I will have an opportunity, 
a little later, to give a full statement to the House, 

With regard to the other problem, I may say that this 
is so definitely removed from our province by virtue of the 
War Measures Act of the Dominion Government. 

MR. HEPBURN (Elgin): Mr. Speaker, the hon. Prime 
Minister has made a very gallant but futile effort to extricate 
himself from the position into which he has placed himself by 
reason of the 22 unbridled points in his platform. Now, he 
tries to hide behind the fact that the 7/ar Measures Act Is in 
effect. I would remind the hon. Prime Minister that the War 
Measures Act was in effect when he made his 22 promises. He 
knew it then, as he does to-day. The fact is, in regard to 
some planks in his platform, that he has over-reached himself 
a little, and is not man enough to admit it. He did not offer 
the same explanation that Right Honourable Mr. Bennett did — 

MR. DREW: I am glad you are now an admirer of Mr» 

MR. HEPBURN (Elgin): I^, Bennett said these words. 

- 55 - £-19-45. 

l<!lr. Hepburn. 

"Tie must not hesitate to abandon premature 
commitments made in enthusiastic anticipation 
of our country* s ultimate greatness." 

Now, with regard to the hon. Prime Minister, I 
would warn him that probably he should advise a lot of his 
followers going around the province to-day boasting of the 
fact that their leader has fulfilled all of his 22-point 
platform. Right here is one he is claiming he is not enabled 
to fill. As a matter of fact, I heard him, over the radio, 
speak to that effect. 

I think it is a good thing for a politician to admit 
that he has made a mistake, and to have this particular 
plank thrown into the well-known ashcan, 

MR. DREW: I feel axire that some of the hon. members 
who have not had previous experience here will understand 
some of the things they have read about the Liberal remainder. 
If it was coming from anybody else I might take some exception 
to the statement that I am not man enough to do it,, I am 
quite man enough to meet the hon. member from Elgin (Mr. 
Hepburn) here or any place else. 

The point is quite clear. We have every intention of 
dealing with this matter to the limit of our power, but, unlike 
the hon. member for Elgin, we do not know when the end of the 
war will be. Of course that information is reserved for his 

But in so far as the question of this dealing with 
coal is concerned, of course the hon. member for Elgin knows 
that efforts have been made to get the Dominion Governrient to 
do it at a time he had not recognized the reform Liberals at 
Ottawa. I recall that he, as Premier, arranged a meeting with 
the fuel control authorities, at which I was present, and at 
which an effort was made to do the very thing that we are try- 

- 56 - 2-19-45, 

ing to do here. 

Now, we will continue to try and do it, and in the 
meantime we have the authority to act the moment the V/ar 
Measures Act ends, 

MR. GEORGE H. MITCHELL (York North): I think the 
time has arrived, Mr, Speaker, when this Government, or any 
other government, should be prepared to accept the responsi- 
bilities which it acquired at the time of being elected to 
the Government. In this particular instance, this Govern- 
ment has failed to do so, in so far as these remarks are 
concerned with the future. It reminds me of the saying of 
a judge, that I heard some years ago: "Hades was paved with 
good intentions." That sounds like a somewhat similar 

MR. WILLIAMS C. RIGGS (Windsor-Walkerville) : The hon. 
Prime Minister made the remark that strikes have caused 
loss of production. I would be quite interested to hear a 
statement from the hon. Minister in regard to the gas of 
southwestern Ontario, because that is one thing our workers 
in the automobile industry, as a matter of fact, lost many 
years eigo, £uid that is all right. The few strikes we have 
had have been very small, nothing to make a big fuss about, 
but in this case it was lost by poor management of our fuel 
situation. It is perfectly all right — our workers go to 
work and lose their time, 

MR. DREW: Mr. Speaker, perhaps it might be helpful 
to this Legislature if I may ask the hon. member for York 
North (Mr, Mitchell) if he is exercising the power that his 
municipality has to deal with this situation, 

MR. MITCHELL: Mr. Speaker, I would like to tell the 
hon. Prime Minister that up to the present I have not had any 

- 57 - ' 2-19-45. 

serious complaints regarding shortage » 

LIR. HERBERT COITITOR (Hamilton East): We have had the 
hon. Prime Minister blame it on the Dominion Prime Minister 
and the war. Surely he v/ill not pin it on North York. It is 
either the v/ar or the Government in Ottawa. Surely the hon. 
Prime Minister can shoulder some responsibility hicE elf . We 
are sick and tired of hearing these things cannot be done 
because the Right hon, Iitr, King will not concur with lilr. 
Drew. They never will agreb on God's green earth. We are 
always given s excuse. The oldr-age pensions cannot be 
dealt with — "We have to have a conference with Ottawa." 
Surely to goodness the Tory Party that wrote out the twenty- 
two points and vrere so sure of themselves -- Y/hat is the 
matter with them? They were so sure they could put all these 
things into effect, and now, when we ask them, - and that is 
all we are supposed to do, - to try and see that they keep 
to their promises, v;e get only excuses. Fuel is only one 
quest! «Mi, There are thousands of questions. The Prime 
Minister went on the air and settled the ;idiole twenty-two 
points in fifteen minutes, and now he has taken an hour and a 
half to talk himself out of one point. Let us quit making 

MR. WILLIAl/i DUCKVORTH (Dovercourt ) : I want to tell 
you — 

MR. SPEAKER: Order o 

MR. DUCKvVORTH: What did Hitler do for the people of 

MR. COOTTOR: I am glad you mentioiBd Hitler, 

L'IR. SPEAKER: Sergeant at Arms. 

Hon. members, v/e can get along happily. There is no 
shortage of fuel in this debate. I would ask the hon. members 
to please respect the Chair. I do not want to hove to raise 


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' 'J'iQiri 


saliBTt o;|- m 

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-iJW tOi 

- 58 - 2-19-45. 

my voice again, but if you are not going to respect the 
Chair I will have to exercise ny authority. I do not care 
which side of the House it comes from, the Chair will have 
to be respected. I would ask the hon, members to carry on 
the debate without personalities and without heat. 

LiR. CONNOR: Every time vre bring something up are 
we going to be told it cannot be done because vie have no 
Provincial-Federal conference or because the war is on? I 
was glad to hear the hon. Prima Minister say, in 1943, he 
could not tell ;/hen the end of the war was going to be. I 
imagine he thought it was going to end sooner than it has, 
and after having heard his information on certain matters I 
wondered if he had any idea who was going to win. 

IJR. SPEAICER: I think we have had a pretty frank dis- 
cussion. V/e will proceed with the Orders of the Day. 

im, ALEXAI^IDER A. MacLEOD (BellTOods): Before the 
Orders of the Day are called, I wonder if the hon. l^ime 
Minister (Mr. Drev;) would clarify a statement made in his 
province -v/ide radio address of August 9th last respecting the 
Family Allowances Act which was passed at the last Session 
of the Dominion Parliament, and the benefits from which are 
to become operative on July the 1st. On August the 9th the 
hon. Prime Minister said, and I quote: . "I assure you that 
the Government of Ontario intends to do everything within 
its pov/er to make sure that this iniquitous bill does not 
go into effect. v;e will not concur in any such high-handed 

I am sure the members of the House xvould be inter- 
ested to hear from the hon. Prime Minister now, first as to 
whether the words I have just quoted still constitute the 
considered policy of the Governnent, and, secondly, if so, 

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- 59 - 2-19-45 • 

Mr. MacLeod. 

what steps has the Government taken, or \Mhat steps does it 
contemplate taking to prevent the Family Allov;ances Act 
from becoming operative in the province of Ontario. Thirdly, 
will the Government, at the Session, ask the Legislature to 
concur in the course of action it has taken, or proposes to 
take, in the matter? 

I am sure the hon. members will agree that this is 
a matter of vital public iniportanoe, particularly in view of 
the fact that thousands of Ontario families will be looking 
forward to theix- first benefits under the Family Allowances 
Act within the next few months. 

May I say, in conclusion, Mr. Speaker, that all of 
us rather expected to find some reference to this subject In 
His Honour* s speech made a few days ago. That it is not 
even mentioned — I suggest the Government has altered from its 
previous position. If that is the case, then I am sure that 
the hon. Prime lAinister will not object if we seek full 
clarification of this vital matter to-day, 

laR. DREW: IJr. Speaker, the Government will deal v;ith 
this at the proper time. The debate of the Speech from the 
Throne starts tomorrow. The hon. member miglit have been wiser 
if he had stopped to learn the facts, instead of inserting 
advertisements in the neivspapers stating exactly what was go- 
ing to be done. 

IJR. MacLEOD: When we ask a straightforv/ard question 
wo are entitled to a straightforward answer. 

MR. SPEiU^R: This is not the debate. 

Iffi. IvIacLEOD: I have asked a very simple question of 
three simple parts. First of all, does the statement I 
quoted — 

IJiR, DREi7: I am fully aware of the question that has 
been asked. 

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- 60 - 2-19-45. 

IJiR. SPEAKER: You have risen before the Orders of 
th& Day, and you have made a statement, and the hon. Prime 
Minister has answered, and it is not debatable. That Is 
the end of it. 

I>iR. MacLEOD: The hon. Prime Minister has not 
answered the question. 

LS. SPEAKER: You are out of order. 

MR. MITCHELL F. HEPBURN (Elgin) : I must challenge 
the attitude you are taking, Mr, Speaker. I listened with 
interest, but not surprise, to the unfair and unv/arranted 
reply of the hon. Prime Liinister to the hon. member for 
Bellwo ods (Mr. MacLeod), I want to say we are getting sick 
and tired of his bullying tactics in the position viiich he 
holds by reason of the sympathetic and \inderstanding attitude 
given by the other members. I am not surprised he has not 
shown that measure of appreciation; rather, he has brazenly 
complained that he is going to pursue his platform, regard- 

Lffi. SPEAISIR: What are you rising on? 

Do you rule I am out of order? 

I grant you you have certain privileges. 

Are you ruling I am out of order? 

MR. ?;iLLIiiM DUCOORTH (Dovercourt) : Yes. 

MR. HEPBURN: You are not the Speaker. I think the 
time has come to challenge this honourable gentleman who 
cliooses the autocratic attitude. I want to say a proper 
answer should be given. It is true, as the hon. Prime Minister 
pointed out, we are small in number, but we do represent a lot 
of the people in the province of Ontario, and I vrill say we are 
going to see to it from now on that this Legislature and "Old 
Man Ontario" are not going to be unduly crucified on the 
tv/isted cross of reactionary Toryism, 

1^. HEl^BURN 


'AiT f^-;.t. 



. aaal 






- 61 - 2-19-45. 

VSR, SPEAKER: Orders of the Day, 

HON. GEORGE A. DREW (Prime Minister): Order No. 2. 

CLERK OF TIIS HOUSE: Order No. 2, second reading of 
Bill No. 25, "An Act to provide for the voting of Active 
Service Voters at a general election to the Assembly," 

HON. LESLIE S. BLACKWEIL (Attorney General): In ris- 
ing to speak on the principle of an Act to provide for the 
voting of Active Service Voters at a general election to the 
Assembly, I v/ould first refer the members of the Legislature 
to the recoiniaei-dations of the Select Committee of the 
Elections Act. They are found on pages 12, 13 and 14 of the 
report, which, no doubt, you have all examined. 

As indicated by these pages of the report, at the very 
first sittings of that Committee held last September the 
unanimity of opinions was reached imoBdiately that never 
again in this province should \'ie have the battle of proxy 
voting by the Active Service Forces experienced in the 
mid-summer election of 1943. Y/e all on that Committee appear- 
ed to come to an immediate agreement on the principle that 
there should be a direct vote of the Active Services in the 
event of another wartime election in the province of Ontario, 
and also that the principles as to hov; such a vote might be 
taken were well settled by the Dominion Act and Regulations 

I should make reference to the Dominion Act, It is a 

comparatively short Act that contains, in all, some twelve 

sections which provide two types of voting. 

One: Proxy voting on the part of those who are 

held as prisoners of war, who are not avail- 
able for the purpose of having their votes 
taken by direct msans. 

Two: A direct vote by casting of ballots by those 
on Active Service. 

The regulations implement the mechanics of taking the 

.Y«CT. p4i3 rlO Zli 

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lorni e.rroi*; 



- 62 - 2-19-45, 

Mr. Blackwell. 

votes. First of all, it provides for the establishment 
of territories, with returning officers for those 
territories, according to xihat the distribution of the 
Armed Services may be at the time an election might be 
called. It also provides for the utilization of the 
officials, officers of the Armed Services, to act as sleputy 
returning officers. 

Now, it is readily understood by your Committee 
that there was a great distinction in the position in v/hich 
the Dominion found itself in passing such an Act, and that 
in which the Provincial Legislature found itself. In the 
first place, the Dominion Government unquestionably has 
full power to designate and order members of the Services 
to act as deputy returning officers. Such a power, of 
course, is completely lacking in the province of Ontario. 

Now, it was in view of the situation that the Select 
Committee recognized that under no circumstances could it 
effectively combat a wartime election in which it v/ould take 
a direct vote of the Services unless the Committee — and 
through that Committee this Legislature-¥/as assured of co- 
operation by the Dominion Government along the line of Domin- 
ion regulations. For that reason, a sub-committee of the 
Select Comraittee was constituted, and that sub-committee went 
to Ottawa accompanied by election officials of the province 
of Ontario, and held conferences directed to secure the 
desired cooperation. Discussions were held between the re- 
presentative of your committee and the Llinister of the Crown 
at Ottawa designated for that puipose, and between our 
election officials and Dominion election officials, and I feel 
I should now table, on the secom reading of this bill, the 
correspondence that passed between myself, as Chairman of the 

•H-s - sa - 


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■: , »f[;t to nairjiia.v ,.„ ^.^..:— iiebwcfed J&eBBjsq tud^ aonabn.oaz&T'ioo 

- 63 - 2-19-45. 

I;lr, Blackwell, 

Select Comiaittee, and the Hon. Norman McLarty, the Minister 

designated for the piirpose by the Dominion Governiaent, 

For the information of the Legislature, I will read 

the correspondence. This is a letter passing from me, as 

Chairman, to Mr. hlcLarty: 

"Ottavra, November 26, 1944, 

"The Hono Norman A. McLarty, r.„ C. , 
Secretary of State, 

"Dear L'ro McLarty: 

On behalf of the Committee of the 
Ontario Legislature, of v;hich I am Chairman, 
and on behalf of myself, I wish to express 
appreciation of the manne-T in which you were 
kind enough to facilitate matters at our 
conference yesterday morning. 

"The proposal then made on behalf of 
my Committee is that my Committee recommend to 
the Legislature of the province of Ontario a 
Statute adapting, as nearly as may be in the 
circumstances, the provisions of the recent 
Dominion Legislation for the talcing of the 
Service vote in the event of a wartime election 
being held in the Province of Ontario,, 

"Following our earlier conference of 
yesterday, our officials met v;ith the Dominion 
Election officials, and, as vrell, with officials 
from the Defence Department for Army, Navy and 
Air. As a result of this latter conference 
between officials, I am informed that no difficul- 
ty was experienced in determining that full co- 
operation by Dominion officials in talcing an 
overseas vote in the event of an election in 
Ontario during the war v/ould be experienced. I 
feel I should point out, however, that at the 
latter conference yesterday Colonel MacDermid, 
for the Army, did raise the question that he did 
not feel that he should initiate such a recommenda- 
tion to his Llinister, but that on his Minister's 
request for a report he v;as prepared to so advice. 

"I appreciate very much that you feel 
that on behalf of your Government you are able to 
confirm, v/ith rae, for our Ontario Gomniittee, that 
if our Committee should see fit to recommend to the 
Legislature of the Province of Ontario legislation 
as indicated above, that the Legislature of the 
Province of Ontario may rest assured of the co- 
operation of the Dominion Government in the event 
of the necessity of talcing the Service vote. 

86 ,9a aioi' 



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- 64 - 2-19-45o 

Mr, Blackwell. 

"I quite appreciate that such assurance is, 
of course, on the assumption that any variation 
in Ontario regulations governing the actual 
mechanics of taking such vote will have to 
be worked out between our respective officials." 

To that letter this reply v/as received from Mr» 

McLarty, dated November 28, 1944: 

"Ottawa, November 28, 1944, 

"Dear LiTo Blackvrell; 

In connection vrith our various conversations 
in Ottawa and your letter of to-day's date relative 
to the procedure to be adopted for the taking of a 
serviCF vote for the Province of Ontario in the 
event of a v/artime election, I appreciate your 
kind expression of appreciationo 

"Your letter indicates you would like some 
confirmation to present to the sub- committee of 
the Ontario House that if it recommends to the 
Legislature the adoption of legislation to secure 
the vote of \7tir Service Electors in accordance 
v;ith the procedure which the Dominion adopted under 
the v/ar Service Electors' Act, it might rest 
assured that the cooperation of the Dominion 
Government would be forthcomings 

"There is only one possible question that 
could arise, and that is the necessity of a 
definite determination of the Ontario voters 
from those who are entitled to vote in a federal 
election. This, of course, is purely a matter 
of procedure, and you suggest it vjill present 
no difficultyo 

"In view of tiiat fact, I think you may rest 
assured of the cooperation of the Dominion 
Government in the event of taking a Service vote 

during the wartime periodo 

"Yours sincerelyy 

"N. A. i.:cLarty.»» 
I should state to the Legislature at this time that 
it v/as the opinion and the recommendation of the Ontario 
Committee that there should be one fundamental departure in 
the principal of taking the active service vote, as between 
the Dominion Regulations, as passed, and the Ontario Regula- 
tions, as proposed© That distinction is this, that under 
the Dominion regulations the soldier takes an affidavit 









- 65 - 2-19-45 

Mr, Blackwell 

whieh is on the baok of an envelope » and this ballot is than 
plaoed in that envelope containing that affidavit signed by 
him, and then put in the ballot box* Whatever that envelope 
nay do, it identifies him with that ballot contained therein. 

There has been a most definite feeling that that 
system, at least, paves the way to invading the secrecy of 
the ballott. The Ontario committee was of the opinion, and 
indicated to the Dominion officials, that it was satisfied 
to have the soldier in his unit, wherever the territory may 
be, take a simple form of affidavit that would cover the fact 
of his eligibility , at the time he became an active service 
nan, to vote in a certain constituency in Ontario. And, in 
the taking of that affidavit in simple form, covering his 
eligibility, and covering the constituency, it was thought 
perfectly safe he should then vote by direct vote which goes 
In the ballot box. That is the only distinction* in prin- 
ciple, between Regulation "A*, under the Dominion Act, and 
the proposed regulations under the Ontario Act, 

Now, Mr. Speaker, I come to the rather simple prin- 
ciples outlined in the bill before the Legislature. I am 
now dealing with the bill as it appears in the members • 
books -- I mention this now to prevent confusion — and the 
leaders of the different parties represented in the Legis- 
lature have in their possession a copy, to which is appended 
a proposed amendment. I willleave that for the moment, and 
deal with the bill as in the books of the Members. 

The first principle is that the active service voter 
Is entitled to vote either within or outside the province of 
Ontario, wherever he may be. I do not think, Mr. Speaker, 
that I need to labour that principle; it is so generally 
accepted to-day by members on all sides of the House. 

. IlewjioeXfl .iM 

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.eeuoH &Ai to aeMs lie ^daiBm xd t^b*<}* bBiqe^oi 

- 65 - 2-19-45. Blackwell. 

The second principle that the bill covers is that the 
■vote of the Active Service voter is to be for a candidate in 
the riding to which the Active Service voter belongs at the 
time of establishin{i his ri/jht to vote as an Active Service 

The third principle of trie bill is l;hat it proviaes, 
in its preseijt form, that the Chief lileotion Cfficer is given 
the paver tu uiake regulations deil ning what an active service 
voter is and otherwise as set forth in provisions (a) and (e) 
of .-section 2 for the better carrj/ing out of the Act, 

There is another principle vdiich is necessary, and 
that IS bhat the Chief lUection Officer, aside froa the power 
to i-e commend regulations to the Lieutenant Governor in Council, 
is given an over-riding emergency authority to make directions 
in the case of emergency. 

The fourth and last principle generally contained in 
the bill is that the Act is limited to a general election, only, 
and is not applicable zo the holding of a by-election. It 
also ; . ovides that the application of the Act will be limited 
to tne duration of the present war and six months thereafter. 

it is not necessary, Mr,, Speaker, that I should deal 
with the Question of the power to make regulations, being one 
of tho principles concerned in Section 2 of tJie bill. I 
riLi.^:;ht 323'' tiiat under anv ordinary circiomstances I would be 
oompleteli' opposed to the delegation of legislation that is 
co.iiained in that section. It is axiomatic that when the 
object and purpose of legislation lend themselves to being 
crya ia.lli'^'.^d in a statute the legislation should be found 
in tjie bill itself, and it follov/s by ordinary principle 
pertaining to delegated legislation that the proper field 
for delegated legislation, - that is, delegating to the 





- 67 - £-19-45 o 

Mr, Blackwe.. 

Executive Council, or to some other body, the power to make 
regulations — shpuld relate to those subjects not capable of 
being crystalized in permanent form in an Acto 

Under ordinary circumstances, if the legislature of this 
province had power without consultation with the dominion 
authorities to enact complete regulations, the position would 
be - those regulations are really capable, under those cir- 
cumstances of immediate crystalization in a Statute. We have, 
however, this problem facing us, that first of all at our con- 
ference in Ottawa it was understood, by reason of the particular 
circumstances that existed, that regulations which the Dominion 
Government wcul d undertake to implement, as far as their services 
were eonffierned, could only be prepared in consultation, and that 
it must be open to the Dominion Government with relation to our 
proposed regulation, to say whether or not it would implement it 
as proper. 

Now, I should say at this point, that on Friday last, Mro 
Speaker, the hon. leader of the opposition (Mr, Jolliffe) wuite 
properly drew to my attention that he felt in principle that the 
power to regulate under this act was too broad. With that I 
immediately agreed, but following that, there has been a discus^ 
sion between the hon. leader of the Opposition (Mro Jolliffe) and 
myself, as to how we might narrow that power of delegation, with- 
out, at the same time, destroying the flexibility that must continuf 
to be in the power to regulate, by reason of the necessity of mak- 
ing arrangements with the Dominion government. I now wish to ig 
give notice that in an effort to meet the point raised by the hono 
leader of the opposition (Mr. Jolliffe) - not now, but dealing 
with the Bill in Committee - that I propose b1 to move amendments 
as follows: that in the second line of section 2, sub-section 
(1), after the words "Chief Election Officer**, we propose to in- 
sert the words, •♦ Appointed under the Election Act, 1945* and in the 




— Htj 

A" tZblOTS 

- 68 - 2-19-45. 

Mr, Blackwell. 

second line after the word "regulations", at the end of the 

second line, we propose to add the words "for obtaining the 

votes of Active Service voters, including prisoners of war, 


It is further proposed that a new sub-section 3 be 

added to Section 2, as follows: 

"(3) Regulations made under this section 
shall have no effect unless the Chief Election 
Officer has certified over his signature that in 
the preparation of the regulations he has consulted 
with the Chief Electoral officer for Canada and 
that the regulations are, subject to Section 3, as 
nearly as may be in the same form and to the same 
effect as The Canadian ^7ar Service Yoting Regulations, 
1944, aad The Canadian Prisoners of \7ar Voting 
Regulations, 1944, being Schedules A and B 
respectively to an Act to provide regulations 
enabling Canadian War Service electors to exercise 
their franchise, and Canadian prisoners of war to 
vote by proxy, at any general election held during 
the present war, also to provide amendments to the 
Dominion Elections Act, 1938 j consequential to such 
regulations, or made necessary by the advent of the 
said war, being chapter 26 of the Statutes passed 
at- the fifth session of the nineteenth Parliament 
of Canada." 

Then to clarify the one divergence in principle I 

have recommended for our regulations in Ontario a new Section 

3 to be inserted, which will read as follows: 

"(3) Notwithstanding any of the other 
provisions of this Act, regulations made herexinder 
shall, except in the case of prisoners of war, pro- 
vide for depositing the voting paper of an active 
service voter in a ballot box in the presence of 
such active service voter." 

Now, Mr. Speaker, before closing what I have to say 

on the principle of this bill I want to say this, which I am 

authorized to say on behalf of the Government; upon this 

bill becoming the law of the province of Ontario the Govern-. 

ment recognizes that the regulations should be settled and 

should be enacted by council, and I should add to that that 

by reason of the Regulation Act that now exists in the prov- 



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- 69 - 2-19-45. 

Mr. Blackwell, 

ince of Ontario such regulations, to be law, have to be 
registered with the Registrar and become a matter of public 
record in this proyincoo 

The second statement that I am authorized to make on 
behalf of the Government is that whilst proceeding with the 
regulations the Government would (appreciate the opportunity 
of having the advice and assistance of the Election Committee 
that has just reported to the Legislature on the s ettling of 
the regulations before they are enacted by council. 

With these two statements, as well as the discussion 
of the principles of the bill, I have great pleasure now, Mr. 
Speaker, in moving that "An Act to provide for the Voting of 
Active Service Voters at a General Election to the Assembly" 
be now read a second timeo 

MRo EDWARD B. JOLLIFFE (Leader of the Opposition): 
First of all, I want to say on the second reading of this 
bill that the members of this Opposition group are entirely 
in favour of the principle upon which the Select Comjnittee wets 
in xinanimous agreement that the direct vote should be extended 
for the purpose of a wartime election, to the members of the 
three s ervices and auxiliary services. I want to say, also, 
that I think some constructive work was done by the Select 
Committee, and that the Attorney General deserves a great deal 
of credit for presiding over that work with fairness and with 

The bill before the House is one of the results of 
the work of the Select Committee, and there is, I think, more 
than one principle involved. I am very glad, indeed, and I am 
sure that all members of the House, - at least most members of 
the House, - will be very glad that we ladopt the principle of 
the direct vote for the war service elector in the riding 



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- 70 - 2-19-45. 

Mr. Jolliffe. 

from which he enlisted, I may say that there are other 
courses which were never, I think, seriously considered by 
the Committee, "because we saw no merit in them. The proxy 
vote, the system which was in effect during the last pro- 
vincial election and is still in effect to-day, was not 
satisfactory either in theory or in practice, and it was 
without any difficulty, at all, that \^e came to the definite 
conclusion it would have to go. 

In other provinces, the province of Alherta and the 
province of Saskatchewan, wartime legislation has given 
Active Service electors outside the province the right to 
elect representatives of their own to the Legislatures of 
those provinces, I think that most members of the House 
will agree with me that it is not a satisfactory or a 
demoncratic procedure. The effect of the legislation in 
Alberta and Saskatchewan was that war-service electors out- 
side those provinces had no opportunity to exercise their 
franchise in any way until many weeks sifter the general 
election was all overo After all, the principal issue before 
the people in a general election is which party shall form 
the next government of the province, and the war-service 
electors of Alberta and Saskatchewan had no choice in that 
matter, whatever. All they were given as a matter of charity 
was to send three of their own representatives many weeks 

The course upon which we were agreed in the Select 
Committee v/as an entirely different one, the principle being 
that the war-service elector, no matter where he should be, 
should have the right to vote for the representative in his 
own riding and in that way to influence the result of the 
election just as fully and just as freely as any civilian 



saw dOXiiW 



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- 71 - 2-19-45. Jolliffe. 

elector, with the single exception of the prisoners of war 
for whom it is impossible to provide the direct vote. 

The Attorney General has e:^lained some of the 
special difficulties which existed in connection with this 
legislationo I think he has made it clear that we cannot 
pass this legislation in exactly the same form as it passed 
through the Dominion Parliament. When the Dominion House, 
a little more than a year ago, I think, undertook to provide 
the direct vote as a result of work done by the Select 
Committee of the House of Commons,, their recanmendations 
were implementeJ by the introduction of an Act, Chapter 26 
of the 1944 Dominion Statutes, I believe, and by attaching 
to that Act a schedule, the detailed regulations of \7hich 
would govern the taking of the vote. NoWo those regula- 
tions are generally satisfactory, and^ as explained by the 
Attorney General, with one or two exceptions we believe 
that they should be extended to the wartime provincial 
elections for Ontario, but, as the Attorney General suggest- 
ed, we are not able to legislate in the same way as the 
Dominion Parliament, to require commanding officers overseas 
or servants of the Dominion Government, anywhere, to carry 
out v;hat is needed to be done under those voting regula- 
tions, ^mything we do in that regard must therefore arise 
out of an agreement between this province and the Dominion. 

Now, assurance has been given by the Secretary of 
State for the Dominion, and other officials, to the Attorney 
General, as Chairman of our Select Committee, that the 
Dominion authorities will cooperate. On the other hand, Mr. 
Speaker, we find ourselves in this position, that the House 
is to-day considering a bill which does not actually provide 



seuoll ex: 

- 72 - 2-19-45 o 

MTo Jolliffe, 

tlie machinery for war-service electors to vote in wartime 
elections, which in effect fioes little more than author- 
ize the passing of an Order in Council subject to certain 
conditions which will enable that machinery to be set upo 
Now, I fully appreciate the difficultyo I must say thiB, 
howeverj that the most satisfactory form in which this 
legislation could be introduced would be a bill similar, in 
some v;ays, to the bill before the House, similar, in some 
ways, to the Act which was passed by the Dominion Parlia- 
ment, a bill recognizing the principle of the direct vote, 
with two schedvTes attached to the bill setting out, in de- 
tail, the conduct of wartime election for Active Service 
voters, and, in detail, also„ the provisions with respect 
to proxy votes of prisoners of war. That, I think, the 
Attorney General would probably agree would be the ideal, 
satisfactory way of passing this legislatioUo However, he 
has taken the position that it is difficult, if not impos- 
sible, to do so because of the time that will be required 
to reach an agreement with the Dominion approving the 
regulations which we desire to become effective and to ob- 
tain from the Dominion the necessary Order in Council op 
general order which will make the provisions of these regula- 
tions mandatory upon all servants of the Dominion Government. 

N0W5 it has been explained to me both without and 
within this House that the Government does not feel there is 
sufficient time to get that job done during this Session, 
and the Government therefore feels it will be necessary to 
provide for the enacting of the regulations by Order in 
Coimcilo In principle, I think that is wrong, although I 
realize the very serious difficulties which stand in our way, 
and before I conclude to-day I therefore wish to say, speaking 





.iiq 15 

- 73 - 2-19-45. 

MTo Jolliffe. 

not only for myself but for the other members of this groupj 
that we "believe an effort ought to be made to draft our oum 
regulations, to agree on their form with the Dominion authori- 
ties, and to obtain the necessary Order in Council or other 
order from the Dominion authorities in order to implement 
those regulations p so that before the conclusion of this 
Session the regulations xhemselves can be attached to our 
Act and be placed on our Statute Book as part of our own 

It is probably unnecessary for mo to explain the 
importance of ("oaling with the matter in that way. This 
legislation is of very fundament a. L importance. I believe it 
affects the very constitution of the province,, because we are 
here dealing with the franchise that ig a fundamental, demo- 
cratic right of certain citizens of Ontario, and as it touches 
our constitution^ and the \7hole fraiiework of government in 
this province, and, all legislation in this province, it is a 
matter which, if at all possible, should be covered by legisla- 
tion duly passed through this House, rather than by Order in 

My concluding word is, therefore, a plea that the 
administration reconsider the decision, and make an attemp1&, 
which I realize might not b© a successful attempt, — but an 
attempt, at least, to reach the necessary agreement with the 
Dominion Government before the conclusion of this Session, 
so that the regulations can be made part of our own statuteo 

MRo HERBERT CONNOR (Hamilton East): If I am in order, 
MTo Speaker, I would like to ask the hon. Minister a question, 
I am not familiar with this bill. I was not a member of the 
Committee, but I understand this bill is to apply for the 
duration of the v;ar and for six months afterwardSp , 



i ettB 





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, ax\ 


- 74 - 2-19-45. 

May I ask if any provision has teen made for taking 
the vote of soldiers, should we have an army of occupation 
after the war? If that is so, v/e may have soldiers over 
there for two or three years after the v/ar, and I would like 
to ask if any provision has been made to take their votes. 

MR, BLACKWELL: LlTo Speaker, it was not thought 
timely to try and deal with an army of occupation at this 
point o There are six months after the termination of the 
war to determine what the actual factors are viiich the 
Election Act should deal with at that time, and I do not know 
that I am at liberty to say that the committee went that far, 
but I am expressing the view of the Government in presenting 
the billo 

Lm. WILLIAI5 J. GRU13METT (South Cochrane): I have 
listened with a great deal of interest to what has been said 
by the hon. Minister (Mro Blackwell) and by the hon. Leader 
of the Opposition (MTc Jolliffe), and I agree with a con- 
siderable amount of what both have said, b^t I think we are 
setting a precedent which should not be allowed in passing 
a bill of this nature without the necessary schedules attach- 
ed. I can see no harm in laying the bill over for a month or 
five weeks. We will be here for some considerable time, and 
if the proper department got in touch with the necessary 
officials in Ottawa, and reached an agreement, and had the 
Dominion Government then set that agreement out by Order in 
Council, permitting us to add the necessary schedules, or 
more, to this Act, then let us, when we consider the Act, 
have the regulations that will constitute the regulations 
under which the Election Act will be carried out. 

I think it is very necessary that these regulations 
be considered by this House, and I fear, very much, allowing 



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llr, Grummett. 

an Act to pass simply with five or six clauses, which 
perhaps would have thirty or more pages of regulations to 
be attached to it later.. I think the hon, members of this 
House should have the regulations before them in the shape 
in which they will be added to the bill, 

I do not like the idea of delegating to the Chief 
Election Officer the powers that the bill here stipulates. 
I do not believe, either, that the Chief Election Officer, 
himself, would want to have all the powers which have been 
mentioned here, 

I woulf' strongly urge that the hone Attorney 
General lay the bill over for, say, foixr weeks, and in the 
meantime get in touch with the Federal authorities to see 
whether or not a hecessary agreement can be entered into 
and the necessary enactment passed by the Federal Govern- 
ment allowing us to add the regulations that are required with 
our bill. I would strongly urge that, UVo Speaker, 

I feel we are making a mistake if we pass this bill 
without having these regulations before uSo 

KR. CYRIL OVERALL (Niagara Falls): I wonder if a 
previous speaker would clarify a statement he read from the 
correspondence. I believe he quoted Colonel McDermott as 
saying he would not initiate the procedure for carrying out 
the Active Service vote, but would wait upon the hono 
Minister to initiate this procedure,, 

MR, BlACmELL: YeSj I shall be pleased to clarify . 
that statemento The hon» member will recall that my letter 
which contained that statement v;as addressed to the Hon^ 
Mr„ McLarty, previous to receiving his reply, and we thought 
the two governments should be meticulous, in order to avoid 
the possibility of misunderstanding, and there ?;as a plain 


- 75 - 2-19-45 o 

indication in ray letter that Mr. McLarty should check with 
the hon. Minister of National Defence before giving his 
reply, and Hon. Mr, McLarty did check, and was authorized 
to make that reply. 

Motion agreed to and bill read the second time. 

HON. GEORGE A. DREW (Prime Minister) : I move the 
House do now adjourno 

Motion agreed to and the House adjo\irned at 4:55, 

" 76 



Toronto, Ontario, 

Tuesday. February 20, 1945, 

SPEAKER: Honoui^ble Y/illiem Jo Stewart, C.BoE. 

The Hoi ;e met at 3 o^clocko 

Prayers o 

MR. SPEAKER: Presenting peti-cions. 

Reading and receiving petit ions o 

Reports by committees. 


Introduction of bills o 

HON. LESLIE E. BLACKWELL (Attorney General) : MTo 
Speaker, I move, seconded by MTo Frost (Provincial Treasurer), 
that leave be given to introduce a bill intituled "The 
Voters' List Act, 1945," and that the same be now read a first 

Motion agreed to and bill read the first time,, 

HON. LESLIE Eo BLACMlfELL (Attorney General): Mr<, 
Speaker, I move, seconded by MTo Drew (Prime Minister), that 
leave be given to introduce a bill intituled "The Election Act, 
1945," and that the same be now read a first time« 

Motion agreed to and bill read the first timeo 

MR. EDWARD B. JOLLIFFE (Leader of the Opposition): Mr<» 
Speaker, the hon. Attorney General has already referred to 

- 77 - 2-20-45, 

these bills, but I wonder if he would give a word of e::?)lana- 
tion to the House about the two at the present timco 

MR. BLACK7/ELL: liTo Speaker, I do not know that the 
hoHo Leader of the Opposition (Mro Jolliffe) would desire me 
to elaborate at all on these bills by way of explanatioHo I 
think what he wants me to say, and what I will proceed to 
say, is this: these bills are introduced by the Government 
to implement those parts of the report- of the Select Committees 
that deal with these subjects.. 

MISS AGJES MACPHAIL (York East)- ISTo Speaker^ I want 
to ask the hon„ Prime Minister {llXo Drew) if he has any explana- 
tion to offer tiie House for the fact "uhat (if my info.raiation is 
correct) tobacco that was cured this fall is moving very slowly, 
if at all, off the farms of southern Ontario, and at the same 
time tobacco seems unobtainable in the United States „ It seems 
a strange thing, and I was v;ondering if there v;as some explana- 
tion for it of which we are unaware, and of v;hich the hon. Prime 
Minister might know and inform the House. 

HON. GEOHGE A, DREW (Prime Minister); lilTo Speaker, 
actually, the movement has been quite rapido There were eighty 
million pounds of tobacco gro\7n last year^ as compared with 
fifty-five million the year before, an increase of tv^enty-five 
million pounds o The quota to both the United States and Brit- 
ain has been completely sold. 

As recently as about ten days ago there were some ten 
million pounds still unsold j because of the larger amount 
grown, but that has been reduced to betv;een five million and 
four million, five hundred thousand pounds since that time, and 
there is every indication that all of it vail be sold very 

MISS IvIACPIIAIL: Is the unsold portion on the farms or 
in the hands of the dealers or the processing tobacco companies? 

- 78 - 2-20-45, 

MR. DREW: That, of course, is entirely a matter 
of arrangement between the purchasers and the farmers, but, 
actually, there is an open market, as I believe the hon, 
member for East York (Miss Macphail) is aware, and there 
has been a sale of all but between four and one half million 
and five million pounds, and there is every reason to be- 
lieve that sales v;ill be completed very shortlyo 

lviR» Ao A. MacLEOD (Bellwoods): L!r„ Speaker, before 
the Orders of the Day are called, tovvard the close of the 
last Session I requested the tabling of certain correspond- 
ence between the provinces and the Dominion with respect to 
old-age pensions. The hon. Prime Minister (Llro Drew) will 
recall that after a brief exchange he finally agreed to con- 
sider the request as a notion for returno 

Now, since this whole question is likely to come up 
again during the present Session, I think it would be very 
helpful if the correspondence referred to might be tabled 
without delay© 

In case the hon. Prime Minister miay have forgotten 

about it, I would like to quote what he said, at page 2404 

of the House proceedings, which reads as follows: 

"I am quite prepared to accept a motion for 
retum„ lie will accept that motion, »♦ 

Later, the Leader of the Opposition said: 

"I am very glad, as I understand the sugges- 
tion that the correspondence be tabled will be ac- 

I am sure, Mrc Speaker, in this connection, at 
least, the Government will be very glad to honour its commit- 
ments » 

MR. DREW: Mr, Speaker, I have no intention of making 
any remarks about the last sentence or any sentence of that 



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- 79 - 2-20-45 o 

statement, which speaks for itself ,> It is rather interest- 
ing that no question has been directed until to-day. The 
file is available, and vje will be eztreinely pleased to make 
the file available© It naturally concerns a matter that re- 
quires continuing attention, eind could not be kept before 
this House from day to day^ no niatter how safely it is guard- 
ed. The file will be aval, lable at any tlmeo 

MjSo MacLEOD; Do I t^ike it that the correspondence 
will be tabled? 

MR, DREW: If the hono member (Mr,, MacLeod) will re- 
quest that it be tabled, we shall have pleasure in tabling 


MR. MacLEOD: That is what the hon. Prime Minister 
said last yearo However., if it is necessary I will so move 

Iffic DREW: I accept that as a motion, and it will be 
tabled, with the correspondence brought up to date, 

MR. MITCHELL F. HEPBURI^ (Elgin): Mro Speaker, before 

the Orders of the Day are called, I would like to refer, on a 

matter of personal privilege., to a heading which appeared in 

last night's edition of the "Evening Telegram" ^ I quote: 

"Hepburn Quits House in Huff, 
Over Baby Bonus." 

"llro Hepburn's outburst brought 
forth a roar of laughter from the Government benches, 
followed by the former Premier leaving his desk and 
stalking from the Chamber." 

Now, without any personal reference to hoUo members 

who occupy the Government Benches ^ may I say. that sometimes 

loud laughter is indulged in to cover up extreme nervousness -- 

HON. GEORGE A. DREW (Prime Minister): You should know, 

L5R. HEPBURN: I am sure the hon. members opposite were 

not very happy during the first hour and a half of yesterday's 


- 80 « 2-20-45 o 

LlTo Hepburn (Elgin) 

session. Sometimes, also^ loud laughter indicates vacant 
minds „ 

However, I am not unused to such outbursts, because 
when I was the leader of the Liberal Party s.ome years ago, 
when the Hon, Mr, Henry v;as the Premier, any reference to 
my name in this House brought forth loud and derisive 
laughter, but I will say^ in fairness to those gentlemen^ 
that they had tv;ice as much reason, because they had twice 
as many members in the House <> 

It is a strange thing, but across the floor^ on the 
Tory benches., I have found some of my nearest and dearest 
friends. They are very fine fellows, when you meet them 
alone, but get a bunch of them together, and they conduct 
themselves very differently^, However;, that is an attribute 
of most animal life. One dog may be a good dog, but if you 
get six of them in a bunch they will kill sheep. 

There is one thing the bumptious Tories overlooked, 
and that was that prior to 1934 they were singing what real- 
ly was their swan song, because after the election in that 
year they disappeared like the snows in the springtime, and 
perhaps history is just repeating itself o 

The fact is, lUXo Speaker, that I had made an engage- 
ment with some people from out of town for four-thirty 
yesterday afternoon. I so indicated to my colleagues, and 
indicated to the hono member for Brant (Mr. Nixon) that he 
would have to carry on from four-fifteeno The hono member 
for Bellwoods (Mr., MacLeod) was good enough to send me a 
copy of the remarks he indicated he would address to the hon. 
Prim© Minister (LIro Drev/) , and I went to the trouble of send- 
ing him a note indicating to him that I had made this sp.point- 
ment with people from out of town at four-thirty^ Uro Speaker, 
I. assure you that I did not leave this Chamber "in a huff". 


tnbael biii &jbv 



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7 J-nam 




- 81 - 2-20-45. 

Mr. Hepburn (Elgin) 

It would take more than thirty-eight Tories to start me off, 
I am sure that those who have sat with me since 1934 know 
that I am a rather amiable person, in fact, I have a rather 
even disposition, and am good-natured all the time. 

MR. DUCKWORTH: It is drawn to my memory that he is a 
great leader. He and I met in Palm Beach, Florida — 

MR. SPEAKER: I think the hon. member — 

MR. DUCKWORTH: No, I am not out of order at all. In 

MR. SPEAKER: You are out of order. 

MR. DUCKWORTH: All right, if you do not want to hear 

HR. SPEAKER: May I most respectfully remind the hon. 
members of the House that if any hon. member desires to 
rise before the Orders of the Day are called, and will 
come and indicate that to me before three o'clock, together 
with a written statement of what is desired to be referred 
to, peanmisslon may be giveno The hon. member for Dover- 
court (Mr. Duckworth) has not made any request, and I 
must call the Orders of the Day. 

HON. GEORGE A. DREW (Prime Minister): Mr. Speaker, 
before the Orders of the Day are called, it has been 
drawn to my attention that there are sitting on the floor 
of the Legislature five Naval officers of His Majesty's 
Navy who are here to take ship back to England. I would 
simply like to mention that fact, because these men were 
in the Royal Navy on ••D'* Day, which has so many intim^w 
associations with hon. members of this Legislature. And I 
know that I speak on behalf of everyone here, when I say we 

( Page 82 follows ) 


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- 82 - 2-20-45., 

welcome them to this Legislature, which, in spite of any- 
thing they might have heard, has many similarities to 
Westminsters which they will Imow better than our legis- 
lators in Toronto. 

MR. EDWimD B. JOLLIFFE (Leader of the Opposition): 
MTo Speaker, I should like to associate myself with the 
hon. Prime Minister (Mr, Drew) , as I am sure should all 
the members of this House, in expressing our pleasure that 
the guests, to whom he has referred, are with us to-day, 
and that they are, if I may say so with complete sincerity, 
such distinguish'^d guests because of the part they and their 
gallant comrades of the Navy have played in this war^ 

MR. SPEiUvER: I^lay I ask the Clerk of the House to 

ask our distinguished guests to come forward, so that we 

may gaze upon the men who guarantee "there will always be 

an England . " 

By direction of the Speaicer, the Clerk of the House 
presented five Naval Officers to the hon, members. 

MR. SPEAKER: As IjITo Churchill has said, "The Navy 
is hereo" 
The Naval Officers retired, 

MR.^ SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. 

HON. GEORGE A. DREW (Prime Minister): Order No. 1, 

CLERK OF THE HOUSE: First Order; consideration of 
the Speech of The Honourable the Lieutenant Governor at the 
opening of the Sessiono 

MR. CHARLES H. AlARTIN ( Hal di man d -Nor folk) : MTo 

Speaker, I beg leave to movej, seconded by Mr. Scott, t^hat: 

"That an humble Address be presented to 
The Honourable the Lieutenant Governor, as 
follows : 

"To The Honourable Albert Matthev/s, 
Lieutenant Governor of the 
Province of Ontario^ 

83 - 8-20-45. 

llTo Martin, 

"V/e, His Majesty's most dutiful and 
loyal subjects, the Legislative Assembly of the 
Province of Ontario, now aasembled, beg leave 
to thank Your Honour for the gracious speech 
Your Honour has addressed to uso" 

Mr,, Speaker, I am deeply honoured in this oppor- 
tunity of moving the adoption of the Address from the 
Throne ^ 

I shall deal briefly with a few phases of the sub- 
stantial record of accomplishment on the part of the 
Administrationo In a short period the Government of the day 
has shown proof of its ability to give sound, progressive 
administration. It has shown that the platform of the Pro- 
gressive-Conservative Party is no mere list of idle promises, 
I feel that we on this side of the House may be proud that 
the Speech from the Throne, delivered by the representative 
of His Ivlajesty on Thursday last, was no mere formal document, 
but, rather, a record of real accomplishment p and also the 
forerunner of an advanced legislative programme shortly to 
be placed before youo 

The World War: I think I should say a few words 
about the subject that has been first in our thoughts for 
the last five and a half yearSo Iviro Churchill., I think it 
was, remarked that the German is always at your throat or at 
your feeto Once again, as he alv/ays does in defeat, the 
German begins to whine o This is the final aid convincing 
sign, if it v;ere needed^ that victory is now assured, though 
we must not yet attempt to speak with any certainty about 
the probable duration of the remainder of the struggle » 

We have survived some dark and better dayso Caa ada 
was viholly unprepared for war except for the courage aid 
willingness of her youth, along with the potential might of 
her producing establishment o Britain, save for her Navy, 

- 84 - 2-20-45. 

Mr. Martin. 

was unprepared, France, rotten as to internal politics, and 
torn by a raultltude of selfish party factions, v;as not the 
France of the Great Waro The French downfall was hastened by 
the cowardly Italian stab in the back. We saw our ally go 
down, in spite of all Churchill could do to bolster her 
coxirage. VJe saw her degraded by the Vichy crew, but we also 
saw her regeneration at the hands of the courageous de. Gaulle. 

At Dunkirk Britain lost her military equipment, but, 
by a miracle, saved her men. Then came the Battle of Britain, 
where a handful of airmen, fighting from dawn till dark, turn- 
ed back the German air force. 

With France knocked out of the war, Britain stood 
alone except for her partners in the Empire, with the ezcep- 
tion of southern Ireland, which stood aside and denied even 
the use of her badly-needed ports o In our southern neighbour 
we found a great and friendly neutral. In Russia we found 
only a neutral, at the tine adding to the European confusion 
by attacking Finland and Poland to rectify her boundaries and 
to add to her territories » 

I do not need to outline Hitler's crowning folly, that 
of attacking Russia when he felt that Britain was ready for 
the kill. I do not need to detail the cowardly and unprovok- 
ed attack of Japan at Pearl Harbour. The German armies were 
soon to pound at the gates of Moscow while the Japanese were 
hammering at the doors of India, 7/e have seen the tide turn, - 
gradually, slowly, - but certainly. At this moment the Japan- 
ese are more concerned with the defense of Tokyo than with the 
conquest of India or Australia. Germany, at last, is fight- 
ing a war on her own soil, a process she has avoided for 
generations past. 

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- 85 - 2-20-45. 

Mr, Martin. 

In all these accomplishments Canada has played an 
honourable part. Our leadership in national affairs has 
been indifferent. I think I may say it has often been en- 
tirely lacking until spurred into some sort of action by 
the courage, the enterprise, and the loyalty of our people. 

I do not need to labour the deficiencies of the 
Ottawa scene. No later than February 5th the representa- 
tive Federal riding of Grey North spoke its opinion of the 
conduct of national affairs « I have little doubt that the 
verdict of Grey North will be the verdict of Canada when 
the ballot boxes are again opened to the electors. 

From our limited population three quarters of a 
million, and more, of our men and women are in the fight- 
ing forces. In October, 1944, figures were released by 
Ottawa for the whole of Canada as to provincial contribu- 
tions to the armed forces. The potential military popula- 
tion of Ontario was placed at 850,000, and out of this num- 
ber 44.4 per cent, had entered the forces. In (Quebec, only 
22,8 per cent, of the potential were under arms. I mention 
this in no spirit of criticism. In recent weeks one of the 
party leaders in this House has declaimed loudly and long 
in the interests of national unity. I merely suggest that 
this unity can best be achieved by a reasonably equal unity 
in contribution to the causes of democracy and freedom. 

The Empire Air Training Scheme, now noarlng termina- 
tion, has been forged into one of the greatest single weapons 
in the hands of our allied forces. 

We have produced arms and material in great numbers. 
It is needless to enlarge upon that. You are all familiar 
with the amount of war equipment that has been produced by 
this great province. 




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- 86 - * 2-20-45. 

Mr, Martin. 

Six Victory Loans have been floated successfully, 
the last one raising $1,407,576,650. 

Our own Provincial Government has purchased Victory 
Bonds to the extent of $20,000,000, of which $15,000,000 has 
been acquired under the direction of our present Treasurer. 

There can never be the slightest doubt that Britain 
and the Commonwealth saved democracy and freedom when both 
were about to perish from most of the earth. There is no 
doubt about the contribution made by Canada in the cause, 
and there is no province which has more freedly poured out 
men, money and material than our own province of Ontario. I 
am. proud and happy to be able to stand here to-day, and to 
point to Ontario ♦s record, and to be able to say that our 
province has given freely and promptly of everything within 
the gift of this Government in aid of the allied cause. 

On this side of the House there has never been a 
voice raised in doubt of the outcome. Particularly at this 
time, I think this House should hear a word of appreciation 
as to the magnificent accomplishments of our American ally 
in the Pacific. I remember croakings from a member of this 
Legislature to the effect that, "If Russia should fall, and 
I believe she will — " — I remember some flat-footed declara- 
tions, later watered down, that "The American Navy is in hid- 
ing." These dismal predictions, I am hsp^py to say, did not 
come from the Government benches on this side of the House. 
And I hope that those of us on this side of the House can 
continue to be neither depressed in the dark days, should they 
again come, nor unduly elated in the hour of victory. Our 
attitude, I think, should be one of sincere thankfulness that 
victory is at last in sight and gratitude for the leadership 


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- 87 - 2-20-45. 

I:!r. Martin. 

of such men as vre find in the allied nations. 

Agriculture: Coming to agriculture, the thing that 
I am most interested in, I v;ould like to deal just briefly 
with this subject. I am gratified at the attention given- 
by this Government to the improvement of conditions relating 
to Ontario »s most important industry. I would say "most 
important" industry because on that industry depends our very 

I regret, as do we all, the temporary absence from 
the House of our friend, the hon. Llinister of Agriculture 
(Mr. Kennedy) o I icnoTir I speak for all of us when I extend 
our sympathy to Col. Thomas L. Kennedy and his family in his 
recent lengthy and serious illness. I have seen him in recent 
days, and I am glad to report that he is making a steady, if 
slow, recovery. Uhile he was in the vaUoy of the shadow h© 
never lost his courage or his cheery outlook. I think that ho 
may now be considered well out of danger, and I hope and ex- 
pect that within a week, or so, we shall again be able to greet 
him in his accustomed seat in this House. No Minister has ever 
given more earnest attention to the affairs of an important 
department or more capable direction to government activities, 
which are so important to the welfare of our people. 

Our farmers are making a most important contribution 
to victory. In spite of acute labour and machinery shortages, 
production, last year, continued to increase. In rural communi- 
ties we kncrar the difficulties of a man-power shortage. The 
indecision of the Federal Government in handling the man-power 
problem has aggravated a situation already difficiilt enough. 
Our taste of bureaucracy, as evidenced in the operations of 
Selective Service, have given us an inkling of what state 

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- 88 - 2-20-45 o 

MTo Martin, 

regimentation really means. Amongst other things, our men. 
are fighting for freedom, for freedom of the individual to 
function as an individual, and not as a tool of the state. 
They are not going to return from the battle lines to submit 
to being fitted into place by a ready-made bureaucratic plan. 
This is not the Canadian., the British or the American way of 

I also would like to make reference to conditions in 
my own Riding. Haldimand -Norfolk. IJorfolky especially, be- 
ing outstanding in its diversification^ we had a very profit- 
able crop of flue cuxed tobacco in 1944 of about sixty million 
pounds, being sixty per cento of the omomit grown in the 
tobacco area of southern Ontario o This crop will return to 
the growers between tv/elve to fifteen million dollars. Also, 
we grow on an average of twenty-five per centc of the straw- 
berries that are grovm in Ontario, ■ These are just tv/o of 
the important products grown in Norfolk, in addition to dairy- 
ing, which is also a very important industry in monetary 

Of course you are all familiar with our cooperative 
cold storage at Simcoe for the benefit of our farmers in 
fruit- and vegetable -growingo This was one of the first of its 
kind, and was instituted by my late brother , Honourable John 
S, Martin, at one time Minister of Agriculture in the Ferguson 
Government. Its cost has long since been amply justified, 
Haldimand County, as a whole, is more successful in 
general farming, and very little fruit- and vegetable-growing 
is done in that county. 

There has also been a cooperative cold-storage and 
grading station established in the town of Cayuga for process- 

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- 89 - 2-20-45. 

Mr, Martin, 

ing and storage of poultry and eggs, etc. I would like to 
bring that to the attention of the House, - not as some- 
thing new, (I believe it has been done in other places,) 
but I do know it is proving quite successful, and they are 
operating in every direction by gathering produce and pro- 
cessing it in Norfolk County., I believe in the future it 
will be a great help in bringing together the buyer, the 
consumer and the producer. 

Planned Agriculture: Two weeks after taking office 
this Government called together four hundred representative 
farmers to organize for agricultural planning. Three weeks 
later a twenty-three-man permanent agricultural committee 
was organized and was given Royal Commission status. This 
committee is meeting regularly and reporting regularly. 
Study is being given to marketing problems, to soil conserva- 
tion, and to other matters of grave importance to our farmers. 
Thirty- five counties have already approved the general plan 
for county committees. A dozen or more counties have already 
set up their local committees. Each county committee in- 
cludes a county 'council representative, a government repres- 
entative, the local member of the Legislature, and a represent- 
ative of each of the local, organized farm groups. They are 
dealing with such matters as: 

Marketing and Distribution; Soil Conservation and 


Health of Animals; Disease Prevention; 

Improvement of Field Crops; Bettering tte Quality of 

Dairy and Live Stock 

The Ontario Farm Chemistry Council is also being 

organized* This council will cooperate with scientists at the 

O.A.C, v/ith research groups at the universities, and v/ith 

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- 90 - 2-20-45 „ 

Mr,, Martin, 

industrial and other research groups. The coiincil will 
collate inforraation received and pass it along to the 
county conHiiittees, 

As you laiow, the work at the 0<,A.Co has been some- 
what disorganized because of the loan of some of the build- 
ings to the Federal Government ., i7ith these now being re- 
turnedj steps are under way to co-ordinate the work carried 
on at the GoAoC, the Ontario Veterinarj'' College and the 
liacdonald Instituteo I have no doubt that the Minister of 
Agriculture (Iviro Kennedy), on his return, will lay the plans 
of the Goverjoment before the House in sane detail o 

I know that the resumption of courses at the 
Kacdonald Institute v/ill be welcomed by our young women from 
the farms of the Province » 

In passing J I think I should mention the promotion 
of Dro Ao L. MacNabb to his new post as Head of the Ontario 
Veterinary College <, For many years he has headed the staff 
of the Health Department Laboratories, the second largest 
laboratory organization in North America. Dr. MacNabb is a 
public servant of the finest type. He is a scientist of the 
highest qualifi cat ions o He is a practical man, as evidenced 
by his work in supervising the farms operated at the Ontario 
Hospitals, all of which he has placed on a paying basis, I 
congratulate the Government on his selection; I congratulate 
the doctor on his promotion, I hope that a worthy successor 
may be found for the post he has vacated. 

Union Stock Yards: By acquiring the Union Stock 
Yards, the Government has given a large measure of reassur- 
ance to our fanners. The Union Stock Yards' Boardj, under the 
chairmanship of 77, R. Reek, our competent Deputy Minister of 



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- 91 - 2-20-45 o 

tlTo Martin, 

Agriculture, includes three farm representatives, one re- 
presentative of the commission men and one representative 
of the packers. V/e have, I think, a well-balanced and 
democratic board, and the change, I believe, is one whioli 
meets with the warm approval of our farmer community* 

Labour: I am heartily in favour of the demands of 
the Premier for a Dominion-Provincial conference. As he 
points out, our wartime controls cease with the termination 
of the war, or shortly thereafter, andi I think this measure 
is a necessity if we are to avoid post-war chaos e I am 
also utterly opposed to the action of the Federal Government 
in steadily moving in on the prerogatives of the provinces o 
Our best governments are those living close to the people, 
our municipal governments. By and large, they function ef- 
ficientlyj they are free from scandal; they get value for 
their money,. Our provincial governments are our best guaran- 
tee of whatever we are to achieve in national unity^ They 
reflect fairly accurately the views of large and reasonably 
similar sections of our population. 

The Labour Court, established by a former govern- 
ment, and which we opposed at the time of establishment, has 
passed av/ay, and I have not heard that there were any mourners. 
It has been replaced by the Labour Relations Board. This 
democratic board of seven members, with three representing 
labour and three the employers, and with the Chairman, 
Professor Jacob Finkleman, more or less holding the scales, 
if that is the right term, has disposed of almost all the 
four hundred cases submitted to ito Hearings before this board 
are prompt. The members of the board are functioning as reason- 
able-men, delivering reasonable judgments, and the comparative 
peace on the industrial front in Ontario is to at least some 

- 92 - 2-20-45 o 

Mr. Martin. 

extent to the credit of this capable organizationo 

The Minister of Labour will submit amendments to 
the Workmen's Compensation Act, a fine measure standing 
to the credit of an earlier Conservative Government, As 
a general policy, the Government accepts the view that 
ultimately every employee shall have the measures of pro- 
tection and security afforded by this measiare,, 

It is only natural that some friction should en- 
sue during the early period of application of such a far- 
reaching measure, but its benefits are already becoming 
apparent, I think that special credit is due for the 
provision made to help workers in the construction indus- 
try. The vacation with pay is scarcely applicable to the 
large number of men in this great industry, but the pro- 
vision where a two per cent, bonus in the form of stamps 
attached to each employee »s book, which may be cashed in 
yearly, gives a substantial bonus to the man who is more 
or less steadily employed, and certainly should encourage 
the thrifty workman, 

I am glad to be informed that the system of 
factory inspection is being improved,' and already results 
are apparent in the gradual improvement of working condi- 
tions in our factories,, 

Niagara Parks Commission: In passing, I feel I 
should congratulate the Government on the reorganization 
of the Niagara Parks Commission under the Chairmanship of 
the Labour Minister. The Commission in charge of this 
great national asset is a strong onej, coii5)osed of men who 
know their subject, and who, as residents of the area 
primarily affected, will have, at heart, the steady and 
healthy development of the greatest tourist attraction in 

- 93 - 2-20-45 » 

Mr, Martin. 


HEALTH: While the Health Department has suffered 
less in recent months in the death of the Deputy Minister, 
Dro B, T« McGhie, the Minister is fortunate in having at 
hand a worthy successor in the person of Dro J. To Phair, 
an official of many years' experience in the field of 
public health o 

During the past year the groundwork has been laid 
for the establishment of public health units. Full develop- 
ment of this plan will necessarily await the return to 
civilian life of physicians, nurses and technicians now so 
largely engaged v/ith the Armed ForceSo The fact that al- 
ready fifty-two nurses arp in training for work ultimately 
in health units speaks well for the reception of this piano 

As is always the case in time of war, the incidence 
of venereal disease is caxising considerable concerno How- 
ever, it is worthy of note that there has been a great 
reduction in the last year, largely thanks to reorganiza- 
tion measures undertaken by the Health Department o 

In the field of tuberculosis, diagnostic facilities 
have been increased, and the use of mass X-ray examination 
has been extended. 

Other problems have been attacked, notably measures 
to combat cancero An examination of local methods of pro- 
tection of food supply is in progresso 

Overcrowding in our mental hospitals is a subject 
that is causing very deep concern to officials in charge of 
this important phase of Health Department activityo There 
are approximately IS, 000 mental patients in quarters 
actually suitable for not more than 10 j 000, The sto Thomas 
Hospital, with accommodation for about 1,800 patients, is 

- 94 - 2-20-45. 

Mr. Martin, 

still on loan- to the Federal Government. If and when this 
modem hospital is returned to the Province, seme measure 
of relief will be afforded, but there still is a great deal 
to be done to find greater accommodation. At the Orillia 
Hospital for feeble-minded there are about SjlSO patients, 
with severe over-crowding in evidence. To alleviate this 
situation, an addition to hold 500 patients has been made 
at Orillia, and now nears completiono It has been in^joe- 
sible to launch a major construction programme during the 
war years, for neither labour nor material have been avail- 
able. However, a programme of hospital construction will 
be given a high priority once the war is won. With fifty- 
seven departmental physicians serving in the Armed Forces, 
and with hundreds of nurses and attendants and other 
employees serving with the Forces, in various capacities p 
it has been difficult to maintain regulation standards,, 
The warmest thanks of this House are due to the doctors ^ 
nurses and attendants who have cheerfully carried on in 
the face of extreme difficultyo 

I should like to extend a word of congratulation to 
the Honourable the Minister of Health for the energy with 
which he has attacked the problems in the health field. 
Grants of $500 j 000 have been made to the Cancer Treatment 
and Research Foundation. Grants of $550,000 have been made 
to sanatoria to provide extensions for the accommodation of 
tubercular patients o 

With respect to indigent patients in general 
hospitals, (this is very in^jortant, I think, to all of us,) 
the provincial grant has been raised from $2,35 to $2,75 a 
day in territory, largely in the North, where there is no 
municipal organization. Otherwise, throughout the province 

- 95 " 2-20-45. 

MTo Martin. 

the Government grant has "been raised from sixty cents to 
seventy-five cents per day udiere the mxinicipality co- 
operates by raising the mimic ipal grant from $lo75 to $2 
per day. This extension of the grant-in-aid system is in 
accordance with sound British practice. The traditional 
tendency in Britain is to use the grant-in-aid system^ 
aiding strong local governments, but protecting their 

Welfare: Certain reorganization measures have 
been adopted in the important Department of Public Welfare. 

In accordance with the pre-election undertaking, the 
maximum old-age pension has been increased from a $23-per- 
month to a $28~per-month maximum. Up to ;|2,000, restric- 
tions have been ranoved as to pensioners' estates. No longer 
does the pensioner have to impoverish himself to secure his 
small allowance. Nor is the small estate now absorbed by 
the "recoveries" which have hretofore been the rulee Up to 
date the Provincial Administration has been \inable to pre- 
vail on the Federal Government to still further liberalize 
provisions in this matter,* 

Mothers' Allowances have been increased, where neces- 
sary, to the point where adequate subsistence is now provided. 

For the numerous unemployable s still on relief, the 
more liberal McHenry schedule of food^ allowances has been 

All child welfare activities have been merged under 
one board headed by the Minister of Health. This board, ot 
course, includes supervision of Children's Aid Society work, 
one of the most important and most humane activities in 
which the province is engaged. 

- 96 <- 2-20-45. 

BflTo Martin, 

The magnificent property of the Boys' School at 
Bowmanvillep an institution founded by the former Ferguson 
administration, is still used as an internment camp for 
war prisoners, while the work of the school is carried on 
in cramped and inadequate quarters in two old houses. At 
Guelphp the Girls' School property is likewise on loan to 
Ottawa, while the work is carried on in two houses in 
Cobourg. I look forward to a resumption of the important 
task of caring for xinderprivileged children in proper 
quarters once the properties in question are retvirned to 
provincial control. It is not generally realized how much 
our services have been sacrificed in aid of the war effort. 

Highways: In the person of the Minister of High- 
ways we have a Minister who gained Experience from five 
years in Opposition, and who- brings the wisdom of seven- 
teen years' of municipal experience to bear on his present 
task. He knows roads; he knows municipal officials; he 
knows human nature. He believes that a straight line is 
the shortest distance between two points. Under trying 
conditions he is giving sound, sane administration in one 
of the most important departments of government. 

Necessarily, at this time, new construction is al- 
most out of the question. As you all know, labour and 
material are not available, and as the Minister pointed 
out to the municipalities the other day, in these times 
you do not get much for your money where road work is con- 
cerned, We hope the county and municipal councils will be 
a little more fortunate in this road programme which will 
be carried on at the end of the war* 

I give the Minister of Highways credit for abolish- 
ing the cumbersome "machinery rental" charge folrmerly paid 
to municipalities. The province now pays fifty per cent of 

- 97 - 2-20-45. 

Mr. Martin, 

the cost of approved purchases of power machinery for munici- 
pal road work. The change is a welcome one. The provincial 
subsidy paid to municipalities on bridges has been increased 
by twenty-five per cent, where a coxinty spends at least 
$1,000 in a given year on a given structure or where a town- 
ship spends $500* 

To aid mxonicipal financing subsidies are paid twice 
yearly instead of once. 

Notvdthstanding shortage of men and material, some 226 
miles of provincial highways were improved in 1944 by the laying 
of a gravel mulch surface. I do not know whether any hon. 
members of this House are familiar with that process of re- 
pairing roads, but urder these pressing conditions it is most 
efficient . and a quite satisfactory rcethod. It is done quite 
cheaply and is very satisfactory. The Minister is fully 
av/are that tourists will not drive on "dust" surfaces if thqy 
can avoid it , and I am glad that he is determined that his 
programme will include plans for close attention to tourist 

For the postwar period plans have been formulated for 
a four-year period. I understand that the Minister hes ^©ci- 
ded to take measures to eliminate the Toronto to Barrie bottle- 
neck, a measure of the greatest importf^nce to the tourist 
Industry in this district. Extensions both east and west are 
contemplated for the Queen Elizabeth Way. This is also im- 
portant in assisting tourist traffic through our main ports of 


I should also like to congratulate the Minister in 
meeting each of our county councils or their road committees 
during the short period he has been in office. I do not want 
to let this opportunity pass to extend our thanks to the hon. 
Minister of Highways for his great effort that he has put 
forth in this emergency of snow that w^ have had, the greatest 
snowfall we have had in years. I am sure we al 1 appreciate 
what he haa done to keep the main highways Qj)en, because it 
has not been done without a great deal of effort. He is set- 
ting a fine example in furthering inter-governmental co -operation. 
I should like also to add a word of commendation to the co- 
operation of the hon. members in all their difficulties and 
complaints. The work in this connection speaks a great deal 
for the efficient departmental organization. The City of 
Toronto may look and learn from his work in this organization. 

Planning and Development; May I congratulate my friend, 
the hon. member for Toronto, St. George Riding, on his elevation 
to cabinet rank. He is a young member who has an impressive 
scholastic record, and who has gained distinction in his 
profession. As Minister of Planning and Development he is charged 
with the duty of co-operating with municipalities in working 
out plans for the postwar period. Already the department has 
achieved progress in furthering plans for flood control in the 
Thames Valley and in the Ganaraska Valley in the Port Hope area. 
Plans are also under way for extending the Grand River conser- 
vation scheme which has alreedy accomplished much for the section 
served by the Shand dam at Fergus. These plans all include 


features relating not only- to flood control, but also the 
prevention .of erosion, and the furthering of reforestation. 
It seems regrettable that we have to give so much attention 
to flood control when we are destroying the very things that 
would prevent so much water from running off in such a short 
time, and I think this government can do very well in having a 
policy of forest cdns"fervation v;hich will prevent such extreme 
floods from time to time. I believe the Department of 
Planning and Development can accomplish much for the benefit 
of all ou r people . 

Provincial Secretary: I think our Provincial Sec- 
retary deserves a special v/ord of commendation. He has a 
number of departments to handle and all present their prob-- 
vlems. He is deservedly popular. His geniality is equalled 
only by the industry, intelligence arid sound common sense with ' 
which he attacks the problem. 

The Provincial Secretary did not wait for the passii^ 
of the Hours of Labour Act before putting his own ho^se in 
order. He directed the initiation of the 48-hour week in the 
provincial reformatories and the 47 county and district goals 
of Ontario. This step is in line with modern progress and I 
know meets with public approval. It is a welcome measure of 
relief to the hundreds of employees which it affects. 

Many of Lhe provincial goals, in fact most of them, 
are not only obsolete, but relics of horse and buggy days. 
It may be a lengthy process, but I think that the municipalities 
will be glad to co-operate in the abolition of many of these 


goals, and in joining in any reesonable scheme to have them 
replaced by provincial prisons, with facilities for a proper 
classification of inmates, and vdth provision for productive 
and health-giving ;fvork on the part of the prisoners. Prieon 
reform in Ontario was launched by the late Ron. W.J, Hanna. 
In the present Secretary, Mr. Hanna has a worthy successor. 

I am glad to learn that the Mimico Reformatory, com- 
monly knovm as the ntario Brick and Tile Plant, has been 
returned to the Province by the Dominion Government. This 
institution can now manufacture brick, tile and other cefiinlics 
for use in the building programine to follow the war. Fo more 
useful institution of its kind exists in Ontario. 

The Provincial Secretary is also to be congratulated 
in his modernization of the Vital Statistics branch, where 
microfilm is now used in many important recording operations. 
Accurate vital statistics are increasingly necessary and will 
be ensured by the enactment of a new measure shortly to be 
considered by this House. 

In conclusion, I wish to say a word of congratulation 
as to the leadership given by the irime Minister of this Province 
He has, in a short time, implemented almost to the full the B2- 
polnt program on which his government was elected. He has ex- 
ploded the old idea that a party platform was something to be 
forgotten once pov/er was achieved. He has *tated on more 
than one occasion that he will continue to lay before this 
House legislation which he feels to be for the benefit of the 
people of Ontario and of Canada. If his program is unacceptable 


to the majority of this Legislature his stand will be refer- 
red to the electorate; and in his position I most heartily 

In latter days some strange rumours have come from 
Ottawa. It has been suggested that Canada must have her 
national flag and her ovm national anthem. It has been sug- 
gested that Canada should look to membership in the Pan- 
American Union. All sorts of suggestions have been thrown 
out, and all with a viev/ to weakening the British partnership. 
Let me say that I stand with the Irime Minister when he de- 
clares that so long as Ontario remains Ontario, the Union 
Jack will wave over this great province and we shall continue 
to sing "God Save the King" — and mean it. I am proud of 
my citizenship in Canada, and in this Province of Ontario, 
but 1 am prouder atill of my citizenship in the Conmionwealth 
of Nations. And when our men and our women come back from the 
battlefields I know they will ccme back with the same feeling 
of pride in Britain and in British institutions, and they will 
help us through the years in making this a still greater part 
of "A Greater Empire than has been," 

MB. HAROLD R. SCOTT (Peterborough): Mr. Speaker, 
in rising to second the motion of the hon. member for Haldimand- 
Norfold (Mr. Martin), I feel very diffident after having 
listened to such a masterly address. 

The announced policy of the government to aim at the 
equalizetLon of educational opportunity has been implemented 
by the following steps: 


By the extension of the provincial scholarship 
scheme until it now affords more than 500 able students a 
chance at higher education which would otherwise have been 
denied them. 

By the marvellous expansion of the township school 

By the transportation of the older students to sec- 
ondary schools. 

Ifer the development of a special type of rural high 

And above all by the (government's assumption of 
fifty per cent of the cost of elementary and secondary edu- 
cation in the province* 

Increased emphasis is being placed on the teaching 
of history and citizenship o 

The government has realized that the development of 
the pupil depends largely upon the skill and goodwill of 
the teacher, and the "Teaching Profession Act", has been a 
long striie towards conferring upon teaching the status of a 

Education really begins in the home, and iwhat oppor- 
tunity is there for education in the tenements or congested 
low-rental areas? By reducing taxation on the homes we are 
going to have an increase in home owning. It has always 
been my contention that as long as you have these tenement, 
low-rental areas just so long will you have Communism, 
Socialism and every other kind of "ism", but let a man own his 


own home and have a stake in the canmunity and see how 
quickly he drops these ideas so foreign to democracy. 

The opening of the training centre in Toronto for ex- 
service men and women will prove a great boon and will give 
them a chance to readjust themselves to civilian life while 
at the same time learning a trade. 

It will be an opportunity for the younger ones to 
catch up on their studies without having to go back to school 
and associate with those who were theit juniors when they 
left; those who enlisted and have done their part in the 

Thfl^ provincial treasu«T« is to be (jiongr^tulated on 
the outcome of his conferences with the treasurer of the 
province of Quebec on the matter of the overlapping of tax- 
ation. I feel that a great many other of our interprovincial 
and federal problems could soon be Ironed away if we could 
have more of these conferences and what looks like impassable 
harries would become bridges to link us more closely. 

The opening of the Ontario Mining Institute in Hail«iy-- 
bury is a new step and one that should be productive of good 
results. We have in the north part of my riding great areas 
of rocky land. In taking this up with the Department of Mines- 
I find that surveys were made as follows: in 1852 and 3 and 
in 1907 and 8 — doubtless these surveys were made in a 
Peterborough canoe. But in 1942 -a survey was made by car. Now, 
as I am very conversant with the rocky areas in my riding — 
and I presume it is the same in other areas — I do not see 


how a man with a car could make a comprehensive mining sur- 
vey over a very great ar««. ^ 

This opens up a great avenue of employment for our 
returned soldiers. Let those who wish to take it be given 
a thorough course in prospecting and minerology, then put 
out in groups under competent experts to make a thorough 
survey of this great area of rocky land which extends from 
Georgian Bay to Ottawa. Let it he at government expense and 
I do not doubt the province will receive back the cost many 

I am pleased to see that the Travel and Publicity 
Bureau is laying pl^iAd for the postwar tourist trades I 
link with this my congratulations to the Commissioners of 
the Temiskaming and Northern Ontario Railway, firstly on 
the financial success of the railway during the past year 
and secondly on the foresight they are using in preparing to 
take advantage of the great natural playground we have at 
our own door. We are specially fortunate in having as Chair- 
man of this Commission, Colonel Reynolds, a man who knows 
and loves the north country and has the vision to see the 
posaiillities o*-' ti;iture expansion of the tourist tradeo 

Located as my riding is, not at the gateway to the 
Kawartha district, but in the very heart of it, the tour- 
ist industry is one of our best cash crops. I notice the 
Minister of Game and Fisheries (>Mr. Dunbar) prick up his 
ears, and he will agree with me that we can spend all the 
money we like on advertising for tourists, but if they do 


not get good sport whey they are here, they will not come 
back again. I note that we are going to expand our fish 
hatcheries tb assist nature, which is highly desirable. But 
as long as our spring floods are allowed to rise overnight, 
then fall as rapidly, natural increase cannot take place,, 
Many of our game fish spawn in the spring in shallow waters 
near the shore and when rapid changes of water levels take 
place, the spawn is left to dry on the shore instead of 
hatching out and helping to keep our waters stocked* 
Temporary dams will help this but it does not go to the 
root of the problem. 

In our efforts at conservation of the fish and 
game there will be openings for many of our returned men 
who will enjoy this type of vrork. I would suggest that the 
Department plan nov/ a thorough course of training in both 
conservation of wild life and legal aspects of the Job in 
preparation for the return of these men. 

To get our tourists in to the lakes we must ask the 
Department of Highways to see that we have the roads. Our 
main highways are in excellent shape but the lakes lying 
along these highways are liable to be fished out, leaving 
the best sport in the more inaccessible lakes. We cannot 
ask the outlying municipalities with low assessments to 
assume total cost of these roads into these lakes, as the 
taxes from cottages would not begin to cover the cost but 
at the same time each cottager v/ill spend from :Jp300 to ^500 
annually in the larger shopping centres lying outside the 



Hand in glove with the opening up of more tourist 
areas, in a year ot two will come a demand for hydro service, 
thus linking up another department of the government. The 
Commissioner of Hydro is to be congratulated on the excel- 
lent showing that his department mAde last year. To para- 
phrase a great statesman -- I nearly said "another great 
statesman" — "Never did so few do so much with so little 
material." During the past year 433 miles of rural primary 
lines were added and service given to 10,000 new subscribers. 
I know that his department has plans for future rural expan- 
sion which will go a long way towards helping solve the 
problem of keeping the rising generation on the farm and will 
also help to solve many of our postwar unemployment problems. 

Peterborough city is highly industrialized and to 
keep the wheels of these industries turning we must have 
electricity. Located as we are on the Trent Canal system 
we have quite a power development at our own door, but in 
dry seasons especially, and, to a certain esctent at all 
ti-^.es, we must purchase power from the Hydro Electric sys- 
tem. I feel we hear too much about potential power going 
to waste in far away places without examining our own re- 
sources to see what can be done to develop or restore them. 

This links up the Department of Lands and Forests 
with Game and Fisheries and Hydro in that many of the water- 
sheds of our district have been denuded of timber, firstly, 
by man, then by fires, permitting the snow and ice to go away 


in one grand rush of waters first thing in the spring in- 
stead of melting slowly in the shade of the forest, soaking 
into the ground and seeping gradually into our lakes and 
streams to maintain a constant level of water through the 
summer. This is also the explanation why so many farmers.* 
wells hare gone dry and they have to haul water for their 
live stock and why so many sub-marginal farm lands have beai 
eroded or become mere areas of blow sand, fit neither for 
man nor beast. 

I am glad to see the government taking the attitude 
that our forests are not just a milch cow for the present, 
but a heritage we should pass on to coming generations. The 
experiments for the control of insect pests and disease wiH 
mean the salvation of thousands of acres of good timber. 

Most especially t am interested in the government's 
attitude towards reforestation. In the northern part of my 
riding are great areas of crown land. Some of this is cov- 
ered with timber and under licence to the lumbering intere^, 
but there are many thousands of acres that have been cut 
over and let revert to the ground, and then burnt over. Too 
many people do not realize that the soil from which we raise 
our best crops is merely decayed foliage and when a forest 
fire goes over an are* it not only burns the standing timber 
but the soil as well, which is really a form of peat. These 
areas lie there and produce a crop of i.'iiiite birch and poplar 
which seem to seed themselves and have little commercial value , 
We are faced with the potential problem of posDWar unemploy- 


ment during the period of transition from v/artirae to peace 
time production, and vdth the definite problem of our return- 
ed soldiers, seme of whom will not want to take on an inside 
Job and in other cases for reasons of health they will be bet- 
ter outside. Let us become future-generation conscious, and, 
if necessary, go in debt for the future to give employment 
to these men in planting trees which in sixty to one hundred 
years will pay back many fold the investment we now make, be- 
sides, being of immediate benefit to the Departments of Game 
and Fisheries, Hydro and Agriculture through maintaining con- 
stant water levels. 

Let it become part of our school curriculum to teach 
the children the benefits to be derived from this. I do not 
suggest to the hon. Minister of Education ( Mr. Drew) that 
the teacher set aside a period for this , but let there be a 
specialist who will go from school to school. Children are 
always interested in an outsider who comes bearing a message, 
and it is to these children we must sell the itlea, because it 
is they and their children who will reap the greatest bene- 
fit from this undertaking. In addition to their school flower 
beds let them have tree seedling beds, then follow through 

and do their own transplanting. 

There is no phase of government that offers so much 

potential employment as does this department; first, in the 

protection of the forests, then in the management of them and 

in the reforestation of burnt over areas; then in cutting of 

timber, the processing to lumber, wallboards , plastics, etc. 

All these processes have received a great impetus during the 


war and will contribute largely to our postwar economy. 

Now, Mr. Speaker, I am sure the House will agree 
with me that this is not visionary planning but sound, con«- 
crete propositions that can be carried out and will go a long 
way toward solving many of our postwar problems, but they can 
only be carried out, Mr. Speaker, if we forget that we are 
Grits, Tories, C.C.F., Labour Progressive or what have you « 
Let us forget this eternal sparring for political advantage 
and remember that the electors of Ontario, whether they used 
^ood Judgement or not, sent us here to legislate for the pres- 
ent, the immediate future and the distant future. Let us all 
put our shoulders to the wheel and make this Ontario of ours, 
not a visionary Utopia, but a real one. 

Mr. Speaker, I take great pleasure in secondirg the 
motion that the Speech from the Throne be adopted. 

MR. E.B. JOLLIFFEE (Leader of the Opposition): 
Mr. Speaker, I move the adjournment of the debate. 

Motion agreed to and debate adjourned, 

HON. GEORGE A. DREW (Prime Minister): Mr. Speaker, 
I move the adjournment of the House. 

MR. E.B. JOLLIFFEE (Leader of the Opposition): Would 
the hon. Prime Minister indicate the nature of to-morrow»s 

MR. DREW: Yes. We will proceed with the bills on 

the Order Paper, and this debate will be adjourned until 


Motion agreed to and the House adjourned at 4.17 p.m. 

(Page 135 follows « ) 

- ±%JO - 



Toronto a Ontario p 

February 21, 1945. 

SPEAKER: Honourable William Jo Stewart, CoBoB, 

The House met at three o'clock. 

Prayer So 

MR. SPEAKER: Presenting petitionso 

Reading and receiving petitionso 

Presenting reports by committeeso 


HONc GEORGE A. EREW (Prime Minister): MToSpeaker^ 
I movej seconded by Mto Blaokv/ell, that MTo Reynolds, Member 
for the electoral district of Leeds, be appointed chairman 
of the Gommittee of the !.)/hole House for the present sessiono 

MRo ROBERT THORNBERRY (Hamilton Centre): MToSpeaker 
I would like to move an amendment to that motiono I would 
like to move that the non« member for Dovercourt (BJTo 
Duckworth) be appointed chairman, in view of the demonstra- 
tion of his wide experience and knowledge of procedure o 

MRo DEtEW: Mr» Speaker, in presenting this motion, I 
want one thing to be quite clearly understood* I had hoped 
that the hono member who acted as Chairman of the whole 
House last year (MTo Patterson) would continue this year; he 
indicated that he did not wish to do so, and I may say that I 
have delayed producing this motion in the hope that he might 
reconsider, because he has given to_ this Legislature impartial 
and good judgment, and I should have been very happy to have 

ISTo Drew. 

introduced a motion that he act as Chairmano 

However, it was on his own request that he is not, 
and for that reason I am moving the motion that one whom 
I think we may consider to the the dean of the House, should 
act as Chairman for this sessions 

MRo DUCKWORTH: An hon.. member got up and suggested 
my nameo It would not be right if I did not support ito 
And I think he is righto Why should I object? 

Motion agreed tOo 

BTo DUCKWORTH: You declared the motion carried, MTo 
Speaker, and it was not even voted upono 

MRo SPEAKER: Introduction of billSo 

HON, WESLEY G. THOMPSON: (Minister of lands and Forests) 
MTo Speaker, I movOp seconded by KTo Daley, that leave be 
given to introduce a bill entituled, "An Act to amend the 
Counties' Reforestation Aot," a»d that same be now read for the 
first time* 

Motion agreed to^ and bill read the first timeo 

HONo WESLEY G. THOMPSON (Minister of Lands and Forests): 
Mr, Speakepiji I movep seconded by Mro Daley j that leave be given 
to introduce a bill entituled, "An Aot to Amend the Grown Timber 
Act," and that same be now read for the first time*, 

Motion agreed to, and bill read the first timeo 

MRo GARFIELD ANDERSON (Fort William): MTo Speaker, 
would the Jtono minister explain the bill, please? 

MRo THOMPSON: The section repealed provides for. pa3rment 
by certain townships of twot.per cent of the dues in respect of 
timber cut on government road allowanceso That money, so 
received, was to be spent on the highways o The amount involved 
was so small, that the cost of accounting is more than tbe revenue 
received from ito 

MRo HAREY Co NIZON (Brant): iVhat was the purport of 
the first bill, may I ask? 

- 137 - 2-21-45 

ItTo Thoiapsono 

MR. THOMPSON: The authority now vested in townships 
and districts without councils is proposed to be extended 
to municipal township in organized districts, with regard 
to reforestationo 

Mro Speaker, I move, seconded by MTo Daley, that 
leave be given to introduce a bill entituled "An Act respect- 
ing Forest Engineers," and that same be now read for the 
first timeo 

liotlon agreed to and bill read the first tlnieo 

Jfflo GEORGE I. HARVEY (Sault Sto Marie): Mr. Speaker, 
would the hono minister ejcplain the intent of the bill? 

MR. THOMPSON: The purpose of this bill is to provide 
the province of Ontario with trained men, certified by exam- 
ination, as being capable of preparing plans suitable for the 
management of forests, particularly on crown lands o 

MRo WILLIAM J. GaRUMMETT (Cochrane South): MTo Speaker, 

before the Orders of the Day are called, I wish to rise on a 

point of privilege to protest an article appearing in the 

Windsor Daily star, of Monday, February 19th« A part of 

the item reads as follows: 

"It had baan rumoured that 
W. J. Grummett, CoCoFo, Cochrane South, 
might have leanings toward the Progressive 
Conservatives, but the opposition holds 
DTo Grummett to be one of its most re- 
liable members and he himself protested 
the rumour hotly. In fact, he has been 
acting as chairman of the party oauouso" 

Ifro Speaker, this report is utterly false in every 

statement. In the first place, I am not a doctor. In the 

second place, I have no leanings towards the Progressive 

Conservatives, I might say that in all ray voting experience 

I have voted once for the Conservatives, and some considerable 

time ago I did vote a couple of times for the Liberals, but 

that was before I reached the age of discretion. 

- 138 - 2-21-45 

Mr* Speaker, I am proud of the fact that many 
years ago, even before the C.CF. was so organized, I 
was working and campaigning for Labour candidates in 
Northern Ontario. That was prior to the Reg4na con- 
ference* After the Regina conference I was at one of 
the first CoC.F, conferences held in Northern Ontariog 
and at that time I Joined the C.CF. party, and I do 
not intend at any time to cross the floor. 

Now, Mr. Speaker, I may say that rumours of this 
kind are vile and treacherous. We have traced this down 
and I, on my part, am satisfied where it originated, and 
in that connection I can only say we could not expect 
anything else from the person whom I accuse as the source 
of this rumour. This party, rebuffed in his attempts to 
attach himself to the body of the CoCoF. party, like a 
barnacle to the body of a whale, is now frantically try- 
ing to attack the C.C.Fo party by attacking personally 
members of that party. 

Mto Speaker, we deplore attacks of that kind upon 
our members, and I can, assure you that we all — the CoCoF.- 
are one bmndred per cent behind our leader, and will re- 
main SOo 

UR. DUCKWORTH: Mr. Speaker — 

MR. SPEAKER : I reoogniZQ the hon, member for 
Prescott (Mto Belanger). 

MR. AURELIEN BELANGER (Prescott): Mr. Speaker, as 
a matter of privilege — and in fairness to the Prime 
Minister — there is a question I should like to put to the 
hono Prime Minister of the province. His answer will be 
of great -- I might say paramount — importance to one- 
tenth of the citizens of this province, and very many nation- 
al groups, and possibly perhaps for different reasons, ad- 

139 « 2-21-45 

MTo Griommett 

verae one to the other, to every citizen of the province 

of Ontario o 

I am quoting from the Montreal Standard of 

December 9th, in nvhich it is stated: 

"Beverley Baxter p noted English 
author" «- 

and incidentally he Is a member of the British Parliament f, 

well known in Canada I am sureo 

"—quoted Premier George Drew of 
Ontario as follows during the 
recent visit of the latter ito 

♦» «I want British stock 
for Ontario Ve can take thousands 
of your people c The one thing that 
can keep the Frenoh*Canadian pressure 
within bounds is a strong Ontario, 
peopled by British stocko That is 
why I rejoice that so many British girls 
are coming back as Canadian soldiorn' 
wivoso We need them and want theme'" 

I will not oommenti of course, until I get from the 
hon» Prime Minister his answer as .to whether he la properly 
ijuoted by Beverley Baxter, or no to 

HON. GSORGE A« DREW (Prime Minister): If the hono 
member had sent this to me before I would have haid the ad- 
vantage of seeing the article, but I carta! nly have no recol<^ 
laotion of making such statemento 

MR. SPEAKER: Oders of the dayo 

mo J'OSSPH B. SAISBERG (St. Andrew): Mr« Speaker, I 
would crave your indulgence for a moment -— 

UR, SPEAKER: I am sorry « The House makes the rules „ 
not meo I am here to enforce themo I am sorry, but if I 
give you the privilege, I will have to give it to other hono 

Orders of the Dayo 

- 140 - 2-21-45 

Ur« Belanger 

HON. GEORGE A.I3REW (PrimB Minister): MToSpeaker, 
I joove the House now resolve itself into a oommittee of the 


Ifotlon agreed to; the House in Committee, Ur. 
Beynoldp in the ohair* 

HON. GSCmOS A. DREW (Prime Minister): Order NOo2 

CLEHK 07 THE HOUSE: Second order » House in 
eommittee on Bill Noo 25, "Ajo. Aot to provide for the voting 
of Active Service Voters at a General Election to the 
Assembly," Ifr. Blaokwello 

THE CHAIRMAN: Bill Noo25, "An Act to provide for 
the voting of Active Service Voters at a General Election 
to the Assembly.'* Shall section 1 form part of the Bill? 

Motion agreed to. ^1 

THE CHAIRMAN: Shall section 2 form part of the 


MR. E, B. JOLLIFFE (Leader of the Opposition): UTo 
Chairman, before we take up section 2: I believe that the 
hone Attorney General is going to move an amendment. I 
think it should be read, and I presume it will be. 

MR. BUCKWZLL: Yes, Mr. Chairman. 

When the Bill was discussed Xia. principle, on second 
reading, I indicated at that time that when section 2 was 
reached I would move the amandmants indicated at that time. 

MR. M. F. HEPBURN (Elgin): I might suggest the 
Prime Minister might better spank his unruly member right out 
in our ..ipresenoe, and not take him into the wood shedo 

HON. GEORGE H. DUNBAR (Provincial Secretary): That 
la quite a good Joke, but we who have been in this House for 
a niimber of years have seen some hon. members who should 
perhaps have been led out of the House. 

■',■'11 V 

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- 141 - 2-21-45 

The Chairman. 

UB. HEPBURN (Elgin): Do you feel better now? 

m, DUNBAH: Yes, how do you feel? 


MRe BLACKWELL: Well, I had no desire to hurry 
the House at all, nor to deprive some of the mambers of their 
obvious desire to relish a certain thing, but if the 
incident is closed, for the moment, I will now proceed, 


Jffl. BLACKWELL: I now move in section 2, subsection 1, 
following the words "the Chief Election Officer" in the 
second line, there should be inserted the words: "appointed 
under the Election Act, 1945," And I further move that at 
the end of the second, line in subsection 1 of section 2, there 
be added the following words; and the words are: 
»*for obtaining the votes of Active Service voters including 
prisoners of waro" 

MR. GRUMMETT: Would the hon. Attorney General mind 
repeating that? 

MR. BLACKWELL: Yes, I shall be very happy to do soo 
May I aslc the hon« gentleman if he desires me to read 
both of them? 

m. G-RUMMETT: The last one<, 

UR. WILLIAMS ; Will you repeat the first one, for my 

MR. BLACKWELL: Yes, I shall be very happy to do soo 

The first of the small amendments is moved as 
follows: Section 2, subsection 1, in the seond line, after 
the words "Chief Election Officer" to insert the following 
words: "appointed under the Election Act of 1945o" 

And in the same line, the second amendment, moved 
as follows, after the word "regulation" at the very end of 
the line, add the following words: "for obtaining the votes 

. aa[!!ii 

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- 142 - 2-21-45 


of Active Service voters, including prisoners of war." 

THE CHAIRMAN: Shall subsection 1 as amended form 

part of the Bill. 

Jffl. BLACKWELL: Just a moment, Mr. Chairman. I 

think if I may make a suggestion for the convenience of the 

House, I feel that the attitude of som hon. members of the 

House will be directed to that section as a vrtiole, and for 

that reason if I may have your leave to dp so, so that all 

the amendments relating to the whole of the section may bo 

before the House, I shall proceed now and move the last of 

the amendments I indicated I would move. 

MR. JOLLIFFE: That is very desirable o 

UR? BLACK'tfELL: In the same section, that is 

section 2, I move that there be added a subsection numbered 

"S", which reads as follows: 

"Subsection 3: Regulations made under 
this section shall have no effect unless 
the Chief Election Officer has certified 
over his signature that in the preparation 
of the regulations he has consulted with 
the Chief Electoral Officer for Canada, and 
that the regulations are, suDject to 
section 3, as nearly as may be in the same 
form and to the same effect as the 
Canadian War Service Voting Begulations, 
1944, and the Prisoners of War Voting 
Regulations, 1944, being Schedules "A" and 
"B" respectively to an Act to provide 
regulations enabling Canadian war ser~ 
vice electors to exercise their franchise 
and Canadian prisoners of war to vote by 
proxy at any general election held during 
the present war; also to provide amend- 
ments to the Dominion Election Act, 1938, 
consequential to such regulations that 
are made necessary by the advent of the 
said war, being chapter 26 of the statutes 
passed in the fifth session of the 19th 
Parliament of Canadao" 

Mr. Chairman I have now moved the three amendments, 
with relation to Section 2, whioh I indicated on second 
reading I would move© 

Accordingly, the whole of Section 2, amended as then 

■l;toA lo 

^ii^s.:jiiS)'i ajaaoflaea^' ©,. 

HH ' 

w 0ii; 

- 143 •* • 2-21-45 

MTo Blackwall. 

proposed, Is now before the House. 

VR, MITC iELL F. HEPBURN (Elgin): Those of us in 
this corner of the House are under a handicap, inasmuch 
as w© have not a copy of the Bill, as amondedo 

I wonder if the hon, Attorney-General would 
supply us with such a copy? 

UR« BIACKWELL: 1^ under standiig, lifro Chairman, 
was, although there was not a printed amendment, an 
amendment was made available, to the hon» member from 
Elgin (MPo Hepburn) on Monday. If he has misland it, 
for his convenience I have here another copy of the Act, 
which I believe has that amendment in it, and I will 
make it available to him. 

MR. HARRY C. NIXON (Brant): I presume the hon. 
Minister (MTo Blaokwell) will have the Bill reprinted 
before we ask a third reading. 

MR« BLACKySTELL: Mr. Chairman, I feel that 
the Bill should be reprinted before a third reading is 

MRo EDWARD B. JOLLIFFE (Leader of the Opposition): 
I quite agree that it should be reprinted before the 
third reading, and I raised no objection at all to the 
Bill being taken into committee to-day. However, I am 

not in a position to complain, having seen the proposed 
amendment on Monday* 

One or two of the hon. members have just suggest- 
ed to me in a case of this kind it would be better to 
have an amendment of such importance in the hands of all 
the hon. members of the House before it is taken in 

• •awoii aad' OTolod wen ex ,D©Boqoaq 
i tCBotbnaA » ittau ©is ©airOH exlJ- ^o Tenioo ci.i{& 

?TTC;r/ fl rfCUE rf^t' tW BIT 

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.. ^ 
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f s>c( ibaaJLffi X dna^ tSnlt^aai i< 

ma I .levwirr -. tb-c-f ©aJtlancoo otriJt naaiad^ snlarf XXtG 

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«Yii»Z>no}d no ^naxobaacxa 
,. a Jftot •Tflif aiedfljain •nori arf* lo omt 10 aaO 
r:* is-^- r.'irow ;}'i fcnlji eJ:ri:f lo aaao b ai =... • ^ 

: aaxxatio<pi xiox;e lo ^aKsbaeeiB r 
.xati:a* ei ;!•£ aiolacf aax/oH ail* to aiacfmea .norf erf+ 

- 144 - 2-21-46 

Mr. Blackwell. 

I may not be the person to raise such a point, 
because I did not rnalce any objection, but I think that 
would be good practice* I Mght say, alsom the effect 
of these amendments is to require that any regulations 
made shall be certified by the chief election officer of 
this province, to be as closely as may be the same as 
the Federal regulations which are already on the Federal 
Statute books, and I think it might be drawn to the 
attention of the House that the hon. members have, on 
their desks, the Canadian War Services Voting Regulations 
of 1944, being schedules A and B to the Dominion Act« 

MR* BLACKW£LL.t X am sorry, Mr. Chairman, Schedule 
B is unfortxinately not in this pamphlet which is termed 
the Canadian War Services Voting Regulations. You have 
to go to the Act for it. For some reason it was not 
printed la the pamphlet, 

ipi, JOLLIFFE: The Attorney-General is quite cor- 
rect. Tilt Bkore Important of the two schedules is the one 
7«lating to the conduct of a direct vote by all those who 
•90 Aot prlitfters of war, which is contained in the book- 
let which the members have on their desks. For the pur- 
pose of clarifying the matter, may I say that we regard the 
amendments now proposed by the hon. Attorney-General as 
a substantially Important improvemeat on the original Bill 
In that they do relate this Bill and the machinery to be 
established under this Bill to the existing Dominion regu- 
lations which are on the Dominion Statute books and to 
whlch^^we can refer at any time. Our position, however, is 
still what it was stated to be the other day, namely, that 
it would be preferable to incorporate in our own Statute 
Books, as schedules to our own Act, the Ontario regula- 

,*cio<i B doc© sslAT o* Boaieq erirf eo ion ^JEua I 

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BtuiRiZ awo -uto ai Btaio^tooat ot eldeteteiq, Bd blvom tt 
j&i otiBtaO Bdi ,ioA mo luo ot BBlsbBdoB SB ^aiooQ 

- 145 - 2-21-45 

Mr, Jolliffe. 

tionsy whatever we may agree upon with the Dominion they 
shall be, and our position still is that an attempt 
ought to be made for the proper representatives of this 
province to reach an agreement with the J^ominion, so that 
at this Session we can include with our Bill the regula- 
tions which would be operative in the event of a war-time 

MR. ROBERT L^DRIER (Ottawa, East): I would like 
to ask the hon. gentleman what he means by this when he 
amends the Section to say, and I read, "An Act to provide 
franchise by Proxy". How can he? I would like to know 
the process by which the war prisoners will vote, imless 
he has an agreement with Geneva. In other words, what I 
mean to say is, we want to know that if we want informa- 
tion from our own prisoners, — as well as those who are 
wounded of our own Canadian forces, — we have to deal 
through Geneva, and how can the hon. member tell them they 
can have a vote, unless he has an agreement with someone 
or other? I hope I make n^self clear. 

MR. BLACKWELLi In view of the fact I heard with 
the greatest difficulty only a part of the hon. member's 
question, I wonder if the hon. member from Elgin would 
explain it for me. 

MH, M.F. HEPBiJRN (Elginh 5!he hon* member my 
colleague, is quite capable of doing that. He wants to 
know how you can provide for voting by proxy, so far as the 
prisoners are concerned, without contacting Geneva, who 
are in contact with our prisoners of war. 

MR. BLACKWELL: Mr. Chairman, all I can say to 
the hon. member about that is that it is a similar diffi- 
culty to that of our own Select Committee of this legislature 

vJ JlCiJIQOq TMO La& ,€»U 

4 dexuor. 
aw 9x1 

'Wi> »'. »¥fta0v d. 

^^TW Gitsi: 



- 146 - 2-21-45. 

Mr. Jolliffa, 

The Committee functioning for the House of Commons at 
Ottawa, eata^liahed regulationa that wouM enable, insofar 
as possible, rotflfs ^ be taken froa prisoners of war. 
dulte obviously, they cannot vote by ballot* ^uito 
obviously, in spite of the best -drawn regulations and the 
best arrangements that may be made, there will be no doubt 
be many breakdowns in the effort to take the votes of all 
prisoners of war by proxy. After all, the hon. member for 
Brant is in a good position to inform the House of the 
difficulties of the proxy system, having regard to the great 
breakdown he experienced in implementing it, and under these 
circumstances I am not prepared to give this House any assur- 
ance that the effort to take the vote of all prisoners of 
war by proxy will be a perfect thing, but we do feel, and I 
speak as Chairman of the Committee, that that is an important 
reeoxmaendation to this House. ?/hat we do think should be 
down in the event of a wartime election in the provine of 
Ontario is to take every step that can be taken to ensure that 
as many prisoners of war do cast their votes in the election 
as possible . 

MR. ROBERT LAUHIER (Ottawa iiast) : I would like to 
ask. the Attorney-General what move he has made to find out 
how that vote can be taken. Can he tell the House what 
moves he has made, as far as the prisoners of war are 

MR. BLAGKWELL; Would the hon. member wish me at 
this point, to read the Dominion Regulation, which, unfortun- 
ately, in this respect, is found only in the statute? I 
would be (luite happy to read it to the House. 

MR, LAURIER: I am not asking the hon. Attorney- 
General (Mr. Blackwell) to read me the Act, because 1 have 

8 RBPiri.'i1f»** "t' 

i» .■4'4 ♦ * t>-ni»« •*. «>»<<!> 


'X^w t=-- sieaeaf 

94 lI 


" 147 " 2-E1-45 

Mr. Blackwell. 

seen it, but I want him to tell me what %9$(^tnce these 
prisoners of war will have in some way or other — what 
means has he within the amendment whereby they can vote? I 
am not concerned » as far as th6 federal Act is concerned, 
because I know for some months the Drew Government has been 
falling out with the Dominion, so as to keep their little 
glory, if I can call it so, but I am concerned with — 
I want to know what assurance the Attorney General can 
give me whereby he has contacted those authorities where 
he can assure me that these prisoners of war will vote. 
That is a legal question, and as a legal man he should 
answer without any sort of equivocation, 

MR. BLACKWELL.S Mj.. Chairman, 1 feel that in view 
of the question 1 should take adeq^uate time — 

MR. LAURIER: Louder. 

m., BLACKWELL: I will try to do better for you 
than you did for me» 

MR. LAURIER: I would like to hear you. 

MR. BLACKWELL: I hope you do. 

MR. LAURIER: Wrongly, perhaps, but, in any event -- 

MR? BLACKWELL: ffhat the hon. member, is concerned 
with, }£r. Chairman, is what agencies, I presume, do the 
Governmen t of the province of Ontario possess to make 
necessary the external arrangements to take the prisoner 
of war vote, and the answer is "None", and it is for that 
reason that it was recognized by the Select Committee of 
the Legislature that it was perfectly idle for this 
Legislature to piously pass an Act whereby there would 
be a direct vote for the Services, including the prisoners 
of war, without first having an indication from the Govern- 
ment at Ottawa, from the election officials at Ottawa and 

- 148 - 2-21-45 

Mir, Laurier. 

those responsible for the three Services, at Ottawa, that 
we would hare the co-operation of the Dominion officials 
in implementing the regulations that were as near as 
might be to the Federal Regulations • I feel I should 
review that, and perhaps the final part of my answer should 
be that on the second reading of the Bill I gave an ex- 
planation of the trip of the representatives of the Com- 
mittee and of our officials to Ottawa, the conference with 
the Government there and with the officials, and I tabled 
the exchange of correspondence by which it was indicated that 
the Federal Government and the Federal officials were 
prepared to co-operate with the administration of the provine 
of Ontario in carrying out an election under the regulations 
as nearly the same as the Dominion regulations as possible, 

I think that probably answers it. 

MR. JOI»LIFFS: (Leader of the Opposition): I thinkm in 
view of the question which was put to the hon. Attorney- 
General, that the House should be more fully informed about 
the proposed proxy voting for the priosoners of war. 

Now, I am particularly interested that the House 
should be informed, because I was a member of the Select 
Committee which considered this problem, and, as a result 
otf which the present Bill is now before the Hoiise. We 
came, I think, to the same conclusion as the Committee 
of the Dominion House, namely, that it was not physically 
passible to obtain a direct vote from the prisoners of 
war, Geneva or no Geneva, and therefore what we have 
recoMmended to the House with respect to the prisoners of 
wax iti that they should vote by proxy in the same way as 
the prisoners of war will vote in the next Federal 
election, hy proxy. 


i^ei Mooes orfi no . 

slaioillo -uro to j&cb e« j • ' • 

w Trf •onaJbfloqaeTioo io osii. 

'• '• .tnamfliovoO I«Ttex 

9d;t as offiiSs ..... 

., ..... ... . .. ,iroH 

n i^-r-; tk^- 

- 149 - 2-21-45 

Mr. Blackwell 

MR. LAURIBR: I do not know how it can be done by 
proxy . ^ 

MH. JOLLIFFB: I am atoout to inform the House. 

MR. LA.UHIER: May I ask the hon. gentleman, How 
can he go into Germany, where we have prisoners of war^ 
and ask them to vote by proxy? 

MR. JOLLiyFE: I will be pleased to answer that. 

MR. LAURIKR: You might have ideas. 

MR. JOLLIFFE: The point is this, if the hon. 
members will look at Schedule B to the amendments to 
the Dominion Election Act passed at the 1944 Session of 
the Dominion Pa.-liament, he will find the prisoners of 
war are to vote by proxy in this way: their next of 
kin will be presumed to be their proxy. There is no 
question of communicating with the prisoners of war 
through Geneva or any other way. That was found to be 
impossible or impracticable. Under Section 5 of 
Schedule B it is provided in the Dominion Regulations 
that "Every person who while on service or duty relating 
to the present war became a prisoner of war as herein 
defined, shall be entitled to vote toy proxy at a General 
Election, such proxy being his next-of-kin, who ia 
officially recorded as such at Headquarters. •• 

MR. LAURIBR: May I interrupt? I suppose when you 
vote the hon. member for York, East, will be your proxy. 

MR. JOLLIFFS: It so happens that the proper 
authoritiesf of the three services have recorded the next-of- 
kin of each prisoner of war, or they are supposed to have 
recorded them, and the effect of Section 5 is that "such ' 
proxy shall be his next-of-kin, who is officially recorded 
as such at Headquarters, and such vote shall be cast in 

•ya &aoL> &c 

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- 150 - 2-21-45 

iSr, I<atirler. 

the polling diTlsion In which such nezt-of-lcln Is a 
giiAllfied elector." So that the schezne of the thing la 
the chief electoral officer will obtain from Headguartera 
a list of the nezt-of-Mn of all prisoners of war, and. 
will then advise the local returning officer of the names 
of those next-of-kin; if they are qualified electors 
they will receive a certificate enabling them to vote 
by proxy for the prisoners of war. That is the scheme 
of the Dominion Regulations, and the Attorney*(}eneral»s 
proposed amendments provide that our regulations are 
to be as closely as may be the same as the Dominion 
Regulations, and we are bound to rely, for the moment, 
on the general aseuranoe of the Dominion authorities 
that they will oo-operate in rec^uiring their servants 
to extend to us the same faeilitles as they muat extenA 
to the Chief Electoral Officer under the Federal 

I think it is Important the House should know 
that because of the difficulties involved, and because 
we cannot prooeed through Geneva, as the hon. member 
suggested, it was concluded by both the Dominion end 
Ontario Committees that it would be necessary for a proxy 
Tott to be case by the next of kin of the prisoners of 

UR. LAURISRt Mr. Chairman, I would like the 
Leader to explain his situation, because I feel he should 
be the Attorney-General in Mr, Drew's Government, and have 
the position Mr, Blackwell has at the psesent moment. 

EON. LBSLIE M. FROST (Provincial Treasurer): This 
was a non-partisan Committee, and the hon. member sitting 
a^ his right for South Grey, and the member behind him 

& ai flll-lc dolriw al noialvJtft solIIo«i ed* 

Bl -^Itlt »d^ Jx) emeiloa »Jit iMdi 06 ".7o;foeIe tf^ltllaai 

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Xa aaltlcO Xaico^ToaXI taldO %At 

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acX?"'"'- -asfli .iion edi xias ,os«jxiacaoD aaalJasq.'-nofl £i sbb 
^id iuxidacf ^ecfAdja ad^ Jbaa ^-z^ixi diuoZ 7ot id^l 

- 151 - 2-21-45 

Mr. Jolliffe. 

for Prescott, were on that Committee, and the finding of 
the Committee was unanimous » and it has been dealt with* 
ffe have the unanimous opinion of the non-partisan 
Committee, and you have a gentleman sitting right beside 
you who agreed to the report. 

MR. ULURIER: I want to take objection to the hon. 
member, who is a friend of mine. I do appreciate that 
the report was made, but surely in any report » as you will 
appreciate, there are things upon which at least a man can 
express his own opinion. Of course, 1 am not bound to 
the Government at any time, and I might say in this House 
that so long as I am a member, I will have at least the 
right to express in this House my opinion at any time, 
whether it pleases you, or not. 

MR. JOLLIPFE: Certainly. 

THE CHAIRMAN; ' Shall Section E, as amended form 
part of the Bill? 

Motion agreed to. 

EOli* USLIE is;, BLACKWJELL (Attorney-Oenerali ; Mr. 

Chairman, on the second reading of the Bill I indicated « 

new Section 3 would be moved in Committee, and I now move 

a ntw Section 3 to the Bill, as follows; the words are, 

«nd I will read slowly for the convenience of those who 

wleh to note them, - 

"Notwithstanding any other provisions of 
this Act, the regulations made hereunder shall, 
except in the case of prisoners of war, provide 
for depositing the voting paper of an active 
service voter in a ballot boot in the presence of 
such active service voter." 

If I may say, with reference to that amendment, 

I indicated that that was the sole instance where it was 

proposed that there should be a departure from the ■ 

ao viav; ^iiooaoTfl tot 

.alfranrr aaw Qeiitmian^ srf? 

ftioq,9i 9Ai oi &S9is« oriw aox 
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odi mc'il siir:tttBqeX> s ecf bLuoda. siori^ tadi J&aBocoTq 

- 152 - £-21-45 

principles of the Federal Regulations. That also, for 
the information of the House, was unanimously reconmended 
by the Select Committee. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Shall the new Section 3 form part 
of the Bill? 

MR. JOLLIFFE: (Leader of the Opposition!: Mr. 
Chairman, I, of coarse, favour what is proposed. I am, 
however, wondering if it would not only be fair to the 
House for the hon. Attorney-General, or possibly the hon. 
Provincial Treasurer (Mr. Frost), or perhaps the hon. 
member for Prescott (Mr. Belanger), who was a member of 
the Committee, to explain Just wherein the difference was. 
I do not believe that is clearly understood by those who 
are not familiar with the regulations. 

MR. BLACKWELL: Mr, Chair, the point in question 
la really a simple one, but it touches that fundamental 
principle of the franchise, namely, the secrecy of the 
ballot. In following that comment, I by no means wish to 
suggest that under the Federal Regulations, the secrecy of 
the ballot would necessarily be infringed, or that there 
Is any intent to infringe upon it. But here is the 
praetioe; the soldier, under those regulations, voting with 
his unit, say, in France, completes an affidavit on the 
back of an envelope, and his ballot goes in that envelope, 
and from that moment on, ahether it happens or whether it 
does not happen, he will be assured that there is his vote 
inside, and there is his name outside, and it will be a 
simple matter for anyone who desires to do so, to find out 
or determine how he has voted. We suggest a change under 
our proposed regulations, and that is that the soldier will 
be sworn by affidavit, by which he will indicate the 

.tic 9di lo leiaeJ) iSTJL 

J. ix ^cziohaow ,i8v»woa 
• aofi 90 atftue id ddc" 

reieriw ;t8ift 

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•di lo T09i9»« «dJ' ,Y^8M8i3 ^•Bldoaatj. 

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iiSBxi Bid ai sieri: 
iuo halt Qt ,r asilBfti odw srrcvxie tcl is^tBffl alrrmia 

illw T[»iJ&xofc i; ttBdt Ms ^anolifaXxfsei J&aaoc 

ei(* niuolJial IXXw ©d dsXdw y;<< ^ttvablltn vd niowa ad 

153 « 2-21-46 

Mr, Jolllffe 

electoral diatriet in Ontario in which he is entitled to 
vote, and then he will be permitted to drop his ballot 
in the ballot box, in accordance with the ordinary practloe 
to which he is accustomed* 

MR. ROBSKT lAUHlSJR (Ottawa, East); May I say 
you hare your practice with the elector for that district, 
in which he is entitled to vote, if he is a soldier. It 
does not matter if he is a soldier or a voter. 

MR. BULCKWSLL: Hay I ask the hon.member to start 
over? From here I cannot hear what he is asking. 

MR. LiURISB: I thought ay voiee was loud enough 
to reach everywhere. 

MR. JOLLIFFE: None of us can hear. 

MR. LAITRIL'R: >7e are so far away, I suppose I auBt 
blaioe the Speaker or the hon. Prime Minister if the acoustlos 
of this House are not as good aa they should be. The hon. 
Prime Minister has Ideas of oodernlslng everything. I an. 
aurprlsed he has not modernised thla Eouie bo we oan hear. 

Yoa atld a aoldler who «ill be the age of twenty 
or twenty-one, and again who would be a oonitituent of t 
oertftln oonBtltuency, might vote In that conitltuenoy in 
whloh he haa t right to vote. Is that right? By what 
prooeii are you taking your vote to the Arnwd Force ■ 7 

MR. BULCKW2LL: I can answer that. 
MR. ULURIEH: I cannot find out anything from you, 
because you are so haay. Ve cannot find out. I would 
like to have these clouds off your mind. May I ask for 
a clearer ozpression? 

MR. BLACKWELL; Mr. Chaizman, I will repeat, the 
soldier eligibility is not bases — 

MR. UlURISBs Louder, please » 

ell II iol, 'v^r 

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a to >aMr#i^iaoa a ad i^jrow oiv iiiasa baa ,a«o«x^Q*vtf '^^ 
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- -*. . '"'■t tozaao af .Y^-^d ^' --^^-ra jjo^ aairaoatf 

.ii£ilA isjox llo ai«iroXa aaaii^ ovad ol «i£j:i 

fxxoXsaa'iqxo i:enaaX« a 
adi (iaaqai ' ' I .noiiniadO ,^ ^JJawXC^a .Ste 

-* aaaad ioa at x^llldlT^lla lelbloa 
«aaaeXq: ,%ahaoJ iiZ^lSOSXl »m 

" 154 » 2-21-45 


MR. BLACOBLL: I see no reason why the hon. member 
should not labour under the same difficulty I have, 

1 made no such statement that a soldier had to be 
tw«nty-oi^ years of age. The fact is, his eligibility to 
Tote will be deterMined by the constituency in which he 
was domiciled in Ontario at the time he became a member 
of the active services. 

MR.LiURIER: Domiciled in Ontario? Domiciled 
in his own residence, in which he lived. 

MR. BLACKWELL: Do not argue about my answer. Let 
said complete it. 

MR, LAURIER: is.'ven if you complete it, I won't 

MR. BIACKWELL: Then, in a moment we may have 
another episode. 

MR. LAURIER; You will have many. 

MR. BLACKWELL: I hope that clears up the (question 
of the eligibility. A» far es the age ia concerned, there is 
no age qualification for the Active Service voter. He 
votes at any age at which he becomes a mexaber of the Active 

The initial question was directed to the single 
question, the method under the Doxoinion Regulations and 
under these Regulations. Under the Dominion --viegulationa 
the voter takes his affidavit on the envelope, and the 
ballot goes in the envelope. Under these Regulations 
the voter ta)ces a separate ballot, and the ballot goes 
in the box. 

THii; CHAIRMAN: Shall the new Section form part of 
the Bill. 

Motion agreed to. 

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al *T«^ov aoZTtaS avi#oA ajl^ tol lairf ftga oa 

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a4^ ^a .a<xoXavc8 aiil ao UrMhl'i'tB sid ealal *ta;tov &i'- 

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.XXia ads 
,oi ^asTss xioi#oM 

- 155 - 2-21-45 

ikir. Blackwell. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Shall 3ection 4, formerly Section 3, 
form part of the Bill? 

Section 4 carried. 

TH£ GHAIBMAII: Shall Section 5, formerly Section 4 
form part of the Bill? 

Section 5 carried. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Shall Section 6» formerly 'Section 5, 
form part of the Bill? 

Section 6 carried, 

THE CHAIiJMAI^: Shall Section 7, formerly Section 6 
form part of the Bill? 

Section 7 carried. 

TEE CHAiajdAN: Shall Section 8, formerly Section 7, 
form part of the Bill? 

Section 8 Mirried. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Shall the Bill be reported? 

MR. BELANGiiJR: Mr. Chairman, in view of the many 
changes which have been suggested, and some of them adopted 
by this House, when they were not in the hands of the hon» 
members, and ;»hen the hon. members could not give them 
their proper consideration before being asked to vote, 
do I understand that the Bill will be printed before third 
reading y with the amendments and schedules, and 
be distributed to hon. members, and that there will be a 
poailblllty for an. hon. member to move, if he thinks it is 
important enoijgh, to have it brought back before the 
Committee of the whole House? 

HSR, BLACKWELi.: Mr» Chairman, I believe I have al- 
ready given the assxirance that the Bill will be properly 
printed before it is called for third reading, and the Bill 
is, at third reading, in the hands of the House. 

,S acliOi 

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s;t £«B ,sfllx)B©i JbililJ lot JbalXso bL ii eiolaif J^^iiiTg 
. eaxxoH arft to afiaarf arft nl .-aniJjsaT f': 

- 156 - 2-21-45 

MR. GRUMMETTr I wonder if we could have some 
assurance by the hon. Attorney-General Juat what protection 
a voter would have if he happened to inadvertently write 
something on the ballot beside the name of the candidate? 
As you know, these ballots will have a blank line, where 
the voter will insert the name of the candidate for whom 
he votes. Now, since they are allowed to write the name 
on the ballot, I am afraid that you will see some voters 
inserting other particulars, such as the political desig- 
nation of the candidates. 

I am rather concerned to think that perhaps quite 
a number of voters might lose their votes if the deputy 
returning officers decided those votes were spoiled. Have 
we any protection for voters under these circumstances? 

I know, in the regular way, we have to be very 
strict in having voters put on the ballot nothing other 
than ^ust the cross, and if they do, we must, of course, 
rule it out, but in this case I think we should allow some 
latitude. I was wondering if the hon. Attorney-General 
could explain ^ust how we could do that. I do not believe 
that all the instructions in the world which are sent to 
the voters would cure that tendency of some voters to put 
something else besides the name only of the candidate. 

Could the hon. Attorney-General explain how we 
could be assured that voters would not have their ballots 
thrown out for this reason? 

MR. BLACKWELL: Mr. Chairman, as a matter of 
satisfying the House on that q.uestion, may I say that we 
have now through comioittee a bill that incorporates, by 
reference. Dominion regulations "A" and "B" into our Act, 
except as they may be modified in the limited termis of the 

To some hon. members of the House that may seem 
like a very small matter to make these modifications 


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•■ 157 - 2-21-45 


To some hon» members of the house that may seem 
like a very small matter to malce these modifications » 
but with the responsibility that I feel I bear in the 
matter as Attorney-Gfeneral, I can assure the House that it 
is a Job that needs to be done with the greatest oare and 

On the second reading of the bill 1 indicated that 
when the regulations were accepted finally, I would much 
prefer to have the benefit of the assistance of the Blections 
Committee as it was constituted by the previous session of 
this Legislature. 

In due course, for this purpose only, I will be 
moving the reoonatltutlon of that aommlttee, and I believe 
It will be much mire beneficial to attempt to settle the 
details which the hon. member mentions by committee, than 
to endeavour to do it in the House. 

TEE CHAIRMAN: Shall the bill be reported? 

Bill reported. 

HON. CSORSE A^ISEUSW (Prime Minister): I move the 
oommlttee rise and report certain bills* 

Motion agreed to. 

MR. SF£AKi£R reeumed the chair. 

MR. REYNOLDS. The Committee of the Whole House » 
begs leiave to report a certain Bill with certain amendments. 
I move tha adoption of the report. 

Motion agreed to. 

HON. GEORGE A DREW (Prime Minister): Third Order. 

CLERK OP THE HOUSE: Third Order: second reading 
of Bill No. E6, "An Act to amend the Mental Hospitals Act," 
Mr. Vivian. 

HON. R.P. VIVIAN (Minister of Health): Mr, Speaker, 

« Vdl - 

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w 158 - 2-21-45 

Mr, Vivian. 

in rising to move the second reading of the Bill ITo»26, 
"An Act to amend the Mental Hospitals Act," I would like 
to point out to the hon. members of the House that the 
principle involved in this amendment ia simply for the 
clarification and improvement in the procedure of appre- 
hending an escaped patient, where such might occur* 

At the present time the method of so doing is not 
quite to the satisfaction of those who are concerned in 
the administration and the care of these patients. Where 
a patient might escape from a mental institution, the 
police officers who may be called upon to aid in apprehend- 
ing this patient, are loath to accept the verbal order or 
request of the superintendent of that hospital^ who is 
charged with the responsibility for the patient, and it is 
felt that this amandment, which is before you, would make 
it possible to undertake thi,s procedure, with a warrant — 
or without, as the case may be •"- and will improve this 
method considerably. 

For these reasons, I move the second reading of 
this Bill "An Act to amend the Mental Hospitals Aot," 

Motion agreed to and bill read the second time, 

EON. GIOBGE A BREWt (Prime Minister): Order No.4. 

GLSBK OF THE HOUSE: The fourth order: second 
reading of Bill No. 27, "An Aot to amend the Children's 
Protection Act," Mr. Yivian. 

HON. R.P. VIVlAl^ (Minister of Health) Mr. Speaker, 
Bill NooE7, "An Act to amend the Children's Protection 
Act," is brought forward as an amendment to the present Act 
for this purpose: at this time we have a peculiar situation 
developing whereby neglected children, that is, children 
of parents who are falling to assume their full responsibili* 

- 159 « 2-21-45 

Mr. Vivian 

ties, are frequently sent to our schools with contagious 
and coxomuni cable diseases, frequently of the skin. These 
children constitute a hazard, and are a menace to the 
health of the other children in the class. 

They are excluded from the school because of this 
condition, and sent home. 

The parents fail to take the proper steps to clear 
up these conditions in these children, usual Impetigo. The 
child is not returned to school; the truancy officer is 
sent to find it; the condition is still present. The 
truancy officer promptly takes the child back to school, and 
it is promptly excluded from class again and sent home. 

This amendment will make it possible for a child to 
be given competent medical attention to clear up the 
unhealthy condition. 

For these reasons, I move second reading of this 
Bill, "An Act to amend the Children's Protection Act." 

Motion agreed to and bill read the second time. 

EON. GEORGE A. DREW (Prime Minister!: Order No. 5, 

CLEKK OF THE HOIBE: Fifth order; second reading 
of Bill No. £8, "An Act to amend the Territorial Division 
Act," Mr. Thompson. 

HON. WESLEY G. THOMPSON)Minister of Lands and 
Forests): Mr. Speaker, in moving the second reading of Bill 
No. 28, "An Act to amend the Territorial Division Act" it is 
to correct an oversight or an error. 

Back in 1899 the township of "Coffin" and "Coffin 
Addition"were changed to "Aberdeen" and in making that 
change, "Aberdeen Addition" was overlooked, and this is 
to remedy that error, 

I move second reading of Bill No. 28, "An Act to 
amend the Territorial Division Act." 

M o tion Qflp s iad tn DTtrl hi , 1 1 r a ftoL tho oooond time t 

noii.OEOnOB Ai DIIEW (ffp i nw iii i a&Dt e p ) > . Ordor Noi 6. 

qLURK OF THL IIOgQliii — Dig%h ordei - , jaeo.jd 


- 160 « • 2-21-45 

Wc, Thompson. 

Motion agreed to and bill read the second time. 

HON. GEORGE A. DREW (Prime Minister); Order NOoe, 

CLERK OP THE HOUSE: Sixth order; second reading 
of Bill No. 29, "An Act to amend the Siarreys Act," Mr. 

HON. .VESLSY G. THOMPSON (Minister of Lands and 
Forests): Mr. Speaker, in moving the second reading of 
Bill No. 29, "An Act to amend the Surveys Act, "I might explain 
that the p\irpose of this bill is to amend a technicality 
in townships where no lot lines have been run. 

There were two systems of running the side lines of 
lots in Ontario, first, in some townships side lines were 
run according to astronomi-cal bearings. Secondly > in others, 
the side lines were run parellel to the original side lines 
of the township, called a "governing linoo" 

It is more economical in. some places to run the lines 
according to astronomical bearings rather than to run them 
paa?all6l to the governing line. 

; In 1897 an Act was passed to do this in certain cases. 
The present Act is to provide this procedure in eight town- 
ships in RenfrewCounty^ namely, Potawawa, McKay, Buchanan, 
iVylie , Rolphg Head, Itoria and Clara. 

I move second reading of Bill Noc.29, "An Act to Amend 
the Surveys Act." 

Motion agreed to and bill read the second time. 

MR. THOMAS P. MURRAY (Renfrew South): I would like 
to aak the hon. Minister a question. I notice these town- 
ships are all down around the county of Ren.frew, and I was 
wondering if new lines would have to be run, and a lot of 
expense be caused by the new Act. I am not very well 

- 161 - 2-21-45 

Mr. Murray 

acquainted with the surveyors' language, but there is a 
lot of trouble abbtit these lines. You have heard the 
old saying that "a farmer has lost his farm over a line 
fence; and I was wondering if this bill would cause a lot 
of new lines to be run, and a lot of new fences to be 
built. That as bothering me. 

MR. THOMPSON; Mr. Chairman, it will not. In fact, • 
it will lower the costs. 

MR. £. B. JOLLIFFE( Leader of the Opposition): la 
what way? 

MR. GEORGE H. MITCHELL (York North) : I want to 
follow up the point Just made by the last speaker (Mr.Murray) 
and that is to say that undoubtedly if a different method is 
to be followed now, lines must be created. I think that 
point is quite obvious. Therefore, the owners of those 
properties affected must have new lines created. ;7hat kind 
of a situation will this create? $7111 it mean a 
lot of lawsuits between the parties affected, or what? 

MR. THOMPSON: This will rectify what has been going 
on in the Department since 1897. The method of running 
these lines was changed, and certain townships were given, 
exemptions under the new method. That was in 1897, and 
there were eight townships which should have been included, 
but which through an oversight were not, and we now propose 
to add these eight townships, whereby it will make 
surveying much cheaper, and will not change the lines. 

Imove the second reading of the bill. 

Motion agreed to and bill read the second time, 

HON. GEORGE A DREW. (Prime Minister): Mr. Speaker 
as the other bills are not printed, I will not call the 
last two orders, but I might say before moving the adjourn 
ment that the debate on the Speech from the Throne will be 

168 - E-2 1-45 

Mr. Drew. 

resumed to-morrow as indicated, and I presume the leader 
of the Liberal party will wish to follow the Leader of 
the Opposition. 

MR. M.F. HiSPBURN (Elgin): The usual procedure is lor 
the Leader of the Opposition to apeak, and then the Leader 
of the Government, and I will go on on Tuesday of next weeX. 

MR. DREW: Last year the Leader of the Liberal party 
spoke following the Leader of the Opposition — 

MR. HARRY C. NIXON (Brant): No, my hon. friend is 
in error there . 

MR. DRS7/: Am I in error in that? 

MR. NIXON: Yes, 

MR. DREW: I thought it would be better to do it in 
that way. We followed that practice in the latter part of 
the session. 

I would have thought the most orderly way to do 
would be to hear the Leader of the Opposition, then the 
Leader of the Liberal party, and the hon. member for Bellwoods 
(MTo MacLeod), who would follow in that order. 

MR. HEPBURN (Elgin) I might say to the hon. Prime 
Minister that I have accepted an invitation to address the 
Lions Club in downtown Toronto to-morrow, and it is very doubt- 
fu; if I will be here at three o'clock. I mention this 
because if the papers get hold of it, they cannot say I am 
showing any disrespect to the Leader of the C.C.F. or the 
hon. Prime Minister himself. 

MR. DREW: You feel it is not your wish to proceed, 
following the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Jolliffe)? 

MR. HEPBURN (Elgin): No. 

MR. DREW: That is the practice we have followed, you 

-? 163 - 2-21-46 

will remember, in regard to all subsequent discussions. 
That was our first experience with that arrangement in 
the House . 

I do not want to debate it back and forth, but 
it seems to m© that is the better procedure to follow. 
if* followed that afterwards last session on the speeches 
on the budget, and all subsequent proceedings. 
MR. HEPBURN (Elgin): I think the proper procedure is to 
do as we did last year, let the official Leader of the 
Opposition speak, and then the Leader of the Government^ 
and the rest of us lesser lights can come on later. 

MR. DREW: I do not want to prevent you from 
following the course you prefer. 

MR. HEPBURN (Elgin) I am sure my hon. friend would 
not try to prevent me from speaking. 

MR, DREW: Mr. Speaker, 1 move the adjournment of 
the Hous^B. 

Motion agreed to and the House adjourned at 
4.17 p«m. 

"<» 164 "» 



SPEAKERS Honourable William JoStewart, C^BoEo, • 

Toronto, Ontario. 
February 22, 1945. 

The House met at three of the clock, poffio 

Prayers » 

ISRo SPEAKER: PetitionSo 

Reading and receiving petitionSo 
Presenting Reports by ComBiitteeSp 

ISRc H, A. STEWART (Kingston)! MFo Speaker, I beg 
to present the report of the Select Committee appointed 
to strike the Standing Committes ordered by the House, and 
move its adoptiono 

CLERK OF THE HOUSE: Mto Stewart (Kingston) ^ 
Chairman of the Select Committee appointed to prepare lists 
of members to compose the Select Standing Committees 
ordered by the House, begs leave to present the following 
as its report: 

Your Committee recommends that the Steinding 
Goimaittees ordered by the House be composed as follows: 
Committee on Privileges and Elections^ 

The Honourable MTo Drew, Messrs o Ander3on,Arnott, 
Blaskwellj Brownj Casselmanp Connor ^ Cook, Dennison, Dent, 
Docker p Downie, Duckworth, Duff, Frost, Gordon, Hanna, 
HepDurn (Elgin), Hunt, Johnston, Jolliffe, Kelly ^ Kennedy, 
Laurierj Leavens, Luokock, MacLeod, Macphail, Millard, 

- 165 - 

Murdockj Mirrphy, MoEwlng, Mclntyrej MoPhee, Oliver, . 
Patrick, Pringlo, Roberts, Robertson, Robinson (Waterloo 
South), Robson, Scott, Steel, Stewart (Kingston), Strange, 
Webster "-46. 

The (Quorum of the said Committee to consist of 
nine members o 

Committee on Education 

The Honourable Mto Drew, Messrs o Begin, Belanger, 
Brown, Carlin, Casselman, Downer g Downie, Duff, Dunbar, 
Frost,. Goodfellow, Hancock, Johnston, Jolliffe, Kehoe, 
Kelly, Luokock, MacLeod, Maophail, Miller, Murdoch, Murphy, 
McDonalds MoEwing, McPhee, Nixon, Overall^ Patrick, Porter, 
Pringleg Riggs, Roberts, Robinson (Port Arthur) 5 Robinson 
(Waterloo South) j Robson, Strange^ Taylor (Huron) j, Vivian, 
Warrenj Webster 5 Williams — 42o 

The quorum of the said Committee to consist of 
nine members o 

Committee on Private Bills . 

The Honourable MTo Drew, MessrSo Acres ^ Anderson 
Arnott, Begin, Belanger, Bennett, Blaokwellj Brown^ Carling 
Challies, Connors, Gookj Daley, Dennisong Dickaon^ Docker 3 
Doucett, Downer, Duckworth, Dunbar j Frosty Gordon,, Grummettp 
Hallp Hanoockj Hanna, Harvey, Hepburn (Prince Edward-Lennox), 
Hepburn (Elgin), Hunt^ Jolliffe, Kelly, Kennedy, LBavens, 
.Lookhart^ Luckockj LacLeod, Macphail, Martinj, Miller, 
Mitchell, Murdoch, Murphy 5 Murray, McDonald, McEwing, 
Kclntjrre, McPhea, Nixon, Oliver, Overall, Patrick, 
Patterson^ Porter, Pringle, Reynolds, Roberts, Robinson 
(Port Arthur) , Robson, Scott, Smith, Steel, Stewart (Kingston), 
Strange, Taylor (Temiskaming) , Taylor (Huron), Thompson, 

- 166 - 

Thornberry, Vivian, Webster, Williams, Wlsmer — 75o 

The quorum of the said Committee to consist of 
nine members e 

Committee on Standing Orders 

The Honourable Mr. JDrew, Messrs. Aores, Alles, 
Anderson, Belanger, Blaclcwell, Carlln, Connor, Douoett, 
Duokworth, Frost, Grummett, Hall, Hepbiirn (Prince Edward- 
Lennox), Kelly, Laurler, Lookhart, Luokook, uaoLaod, 
lailard, Miller, Murdoch, McDonald, MoPhee, Nixon 
Ollyar, Overall, Patterion, Porter, Reynolds, Biggs, 
Robertson, Robson, Soott, Smith, Steel, Stewart (Kingston), 
Strange, Taylor (Huron) and Warren -- 40« 

The quorum of tho said Committee to consist of 
five members 

Committee on Public Accounts , 

The Honourable MTo Drew, Messrs. Acres, Alles, 
Anderson, Arnott, Begin, Belanger, Bennett, Blaokwall, 
Brown, Casselman, Challles, Connor, Daley, Dennison, Dent, 
Dloksonp Douoett f Downltf Duckwortho Dunbar, Froit, 
Ooodfellow, Qordon, Orummett, Hall, Hepburn (Frinoo lidward- 
Lennox), Hepburn (Slgln), Hunt, J'ohnstoni Jolllffe, Kahoe, 
Kelly, Kennedy, Leavens, Lockhart, Luokook, MaoOllllTray, 
MlBioLeod, Millard, Millar, Mitchell, Murdoch, Murphy, 
Molntyre, McPhee, Nixon, Oliver, Overall, Patrick, 
Patterson, Porter, Prlngle, Reynolds, Rlggs, Roberts, Robinson, 
(Port Arthur), Robinson (Waterloo South), Smith, Stewart, 
(Kingston) , Strange, Taylor (Temiskaming), Taylor (Huron), 
I'hompson, Thornberry, Vivian, Warren, Webster, Williams, 
Wlsmer . — 70o 

The quorum of the said Committee to consist of 
nine members. 

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- 167 

Committee on Printing; 

The Honourable R5ro Drew, Messrso Alles, Anderson 
Arnottj, Begin, Casaelman, Challies, Dennison, Dent, 
Dickson, Docker, Duff, Dunbar p Goodfellow, Hanna, Hunt, 
Kelly s Kennedy, Laurler, Leavens, Luckock, Liillard, 
Murphy, Mclntyrej Pringle, Riggs, Roberts. Robertson;, 
Salsberg, Taylor (Temiskaning) — 30 o 

The quorum of the said Committee to consist of 
five members o 
Committee on Municipal law 

The honourable MTo Drew, Messrs., Anderson, Arnott 9 
Begin^ Belangers Bennett p Blackwellj Brown^ Carlin, Challies, 
Daley 3 Dennison, Dent, Docker, Douce ttp Duckworth, Dunbar, 
Frosty G-oodfelloWg Gordon, Grummettg Hancock, Hanna^ 
Harv«y^ Hepburn (Elgin) 3 Hunt, Johnston, Jolliffe, Kehoe 
Kelly, Kennedys Laurlor, Leavens, Lockhart^ MacGlllivrayg 
Martin^ Mitchells Murdochj Murphy 9 Murrey j, McDonald, 
McEwings McPheej Nixon, Patrick, Pattersonj Porter, 
ReynoldSa Riggs, Roberts,, Robinson (Port Arthur), Robinson 
(Waterloo South) 3 Salsberg^ Smith, Steel, Stewart (Kingston), 
Strange 5 Taylor (Temiskaming) 9 Thompson, Thornberry., Vidian, 
Williams »» 62o 

The quorum, (bf the said Committee to consist of 
nine members o 

Goiamittee on Leg al Billso 

The Honourable MTo Drew, Messrs o Arnottg Belanger, 
Blackwellj Brown, Dennisonj, Docker ^ Frost, Grummett, 
Hancock, Hepburn (Prince Edward^Lennox) , Jolliffe 3 Kehoe, 
Kelly, Laurier, LacLeod, Murdochj McDonald, Nixon, Patrick, 
Porters Reynolds, Roberts, Robinson (Waterloo South), Scott 
Stewart (Kingston), Taylor (Temiskaming) , Taylor (Huron), 



,18* If 

- 168 - 

Warran, Wisnj^r — 30o 

The quorum of the said .Committee to consist of 
five memberso 

Committee on Agriculture and Colonization 

The Honourable Mto Drew, Messrso Acres, Anderson 
Belenger, Browne Carlin, Casselman, Challies, Cook , 
Denniaon, Dent, Dickson, Douce tt, Downer, Dovnxie, Duff, 
Goodfellow, Hall, Hancock, Hanna, Hepburn (Prince Edward- 
Lennox), Hepburn (Elgin}, Hunt, Johnston, Jolliffe, Kel3y, 
Kennedy, Leavens, Lookhart, Luokook, Macphail, Martin 
Mitchell, Murdoch, Murphy, Murray, McDonald, McEwing, 
i^Intyra, Nixon, Olivar, Overall, Patrick, Fr ingle, 
Reynolds, Robinson (Waterloo South), Robson, Salsberg, 
Soott, Smith, Steel, Strange, Taylor (Temiskamlng), Taylor, 
(Huron), Thompson, Warren, Webster *- 57e 

The quorum of the said Committee to oonsist of 
nine members e 

Oommittae on Tiah and Grami 

The Honourable Mr« Drew, Messrs ^ Acres, Alles 
Bennett, Brown, Carlin, Casselnan, Challies, Cook, Dent, 
Dioksoni Docker, Douoett, Dunbar, Ooodfellow, Gordon, 
Grunmett, Hall, Kanoook, Hannt, Harvey, Hepburn (Prlnoe 
Mward- Lennox), Hepburn (Elgin), Hunt, Johnston, Kehoe, 
Kelly, Lockhart, Luokook, MaoOilllvray, Martin, Millard, 
Miller, Mltohellp Murdoch, Uarrty, McDonald, Molntyra, 
MoPhee, Nixon, Oliver, Overall, Patriak, Patterson, Porter, 
Pringle, Reynolds, Rlggs, Robiiison (Port Arthur), Robson, 
Salsberg« Sootty Smith, Stewart (Kingston) » Strange 
Taylor (Temiskamlng), Taylor (Huron), Thompson, Warren 
Webster, VisSier -- 61. 

- 169 - 

The quoriim of the said Committee to consist of 
nine members o 

Committee on Labour 

The Honourable ISCo Drew, Messrs* Alles, Arnott, 
Belanger, Blackvrell, Carlin, Challies, Connor, Cook, 
Daley, Duckworth, Gordon, Hall, Harvey, Hepburn (Prince 
Edv/ard-Lennox) , Hepburn (Elgin), Jolliffe, Kelly, Leavens, 
Luckock, MacGillivray, Millard, Murdoch, Murohy, Murray, 
McPhoe, Nixon, Porter, Reynolds, Riggs, Roberts, Robertson, 
Robinson (Port Arthur), Salsberg, Scott, Steel, Strange, 
Taylor (Huron), Thompson, Williams — ■ 40o 

The quorum of ithe said Committee to consist of 
seven memberso 

All of which is respectfully submittedo 

(Signed) Ho Ao Stewart 

Report adopted o Chairman o 

l^. SPEAKER: Mot ions o 

Introduction of BillSo 

HONe lESLIE Mo FROST (Provincial Treasurer): MTo 
Speaker 9 I beg to movejj seconded by Mto Blackwell, that 
leave be given to introduce entituled, "An Act to amend 
the Damages by Fumes Arbitration Act," and that the same be 
now read for the first timOo 

Motion agreed to and bill read the first time* 

Iffi. GEORGE LOCKHART (Rainy River): Would the 
hono Minister please elaborate ;on that? 

MRo FROST: The amendments is a coniparatively 
simple oneo The present Act provides for certain adminis- 
tration expenseso The administration expenses are contri- 
buted by the companies which cause the damages. The 
amount which the companies for administration expenses is 
$5 3 000 5 and that must not ^q confused, of course, with the 
amount of damages by poinoned gases and fumeso This is 
for administration only. 

- 170 » 2-22-45 

$5,000, and that must not bo confused ^ of course, with 
the amount of damages by poisoned gases and fumeso This 
is for administration onlyo 

This amendment increases that amount to ^lOsOOO, 
instead of $5s,000j because we intend to extend our work to 
quite an extent dxiring the corning yearo 

HONo GEORGE H. DOUCETT (Minister of Public Works )s 
Mto Speaker, I move, seconded by Mr^ Challles, that lea-ve 
be given to introduce a bill entituleds ''An Act to amend 
the Public Works Act," and that same be now read the first 

Jtotion agreed to and bill read the first time.-, 

MR. GEORGE H. MITGIiELL (York North )j Will the 
hono Minister kindly explain the Bill? 

MRo DOUCETT: This Bill recoirjuends an amendment 
to the Act 5 making it possible for the go^rnment to offer 
compensation for properties purchased by letter, instead 
of legal tender o 

HONo LESLIE E. BLAGKWELL (Attomey-General) : JijCo 
Speaker^ I movcg seconded by Mto .Frosty that leave be 
given to introduce a bill entituled^ '^An Act to repeal 
the Political Constitutions Act, ^ ftnd that same be now 
read the first timeo 

Motion agr-eed to and bill read the first timeo 

HRc WILLUM Jo GRUL3i/lETT (Cochrane South) : I wonder 
if the hono lanister would kindly explain the billo 

MRo BLACK//ELL: MTo Speaker, > that is one of the 
recommendations of the Select Committee of the 3>gislature 
on the Election Act, and this bill ia introduced to implement 
that reoommendationo 

I now move;, MTo Speaker j seconded by Mco Frost, 
that leave be given to introduce a bill entituled. 

- 171 • 2-22-45 

"An Act to ajsond the Judioatirre Aot,** and that same ba 
now read for the first time. 

Motion agretd to and bill raad the first tlmso 
URo SPEAKER: Ur» I>rew has asked the privilege 
of rising before the Orders of the Dayo The Chair now 
recognizes itto Drewo 

HON. GEOBGS A. DREW (Prime Ulnlster): Ur. 
Speaker, I feel sure it will be the pleasure of hen.oembers 
that we dr«w to their attention the fact that there is on 
the floor of the Legislature another representatlTe of one 
of the fighting serTloes, assoelated with the coamoB oauae, 
whioh is apparently eoming closer to vietory all the tlmei 
and with your perzalision, I would ask Colonel Zabotln, of 
the U08080R0 forces, to step forward, 

••»• Colonel Zabotln presented to the Speaker* 

HOK« OSCiiaE A DRIV (Prime Minister): May I sty 
to you, sir, oa behalf of the menbers of this Rouae that 
«• weloone you here as a representative of that great 
arny which on the other side of the enemy is driring to- 
ward victory at such speed to-daye 

OOLOKIL ZABOTINi Thank you very mueh, air* 

MR. M. r. I2PBURK (Slgin) Mr^ Spaaktr, may I Join 
with tht hon« Prime Mlniater in extending a hearty Wilooma 
to our distinguished gueat, who is not only a great hero, 
but a great military stpategiat of the Russian Armyg 

It Is rather singular that he is here on the 
occasion of the £7th anniversary of the creation of that' 
great body of men which have suffered so much, but who, at 
the same time, have contributed so much to ultimate allied 
vietoryo I want to say, Mr« Speaker, to him and to his nation 
that they have set an example to a bewildered world, in 

- 172 -• 2-22-45 

ITr o Hepburn ( Elgin ) 

connoction with national unity, because they have moulded 
together over one hundred nations into one so lid j compact 
wholeo May we wish you;, sir^ every success in the great 
conflict in which we are associated with youo 

-» Colonel Zabotin retiredo 

HON. GEORGE Ao DREW (Prime Minister); MTo Speaker, 
again before the Orders of the Day, I rise to speak on a 
matter of major importance, in view of two statements 
which are reported in this morning* s press and which have a 
very direct bearing on matters of utmost concern to this 

Two announoements by Dominion cabinet ministers 
last night call for an immediate statement from this Govern- 
mento One was contained in a speech of the Honourable 
Brooke Claxton in Halifax last night, and the other was a 
press announcement from Ottawa that the Dominion Miiister 
of Health and Welfare., MTo Claxton, and the Minister of 
National War Services, irlr, LaFlechej, had made arrangements 
with the Women's JToluntary Services to take part in the 
registration and sorting of forms required for the payment 
of Family Allowances right across Canada o 

In his speech in Halifax 5 MTo Claxton made it clear 
that he looks upon Family Allowances as part of "^a broad 
system of social security© •• This Government has from the 
beginning been conviiced that Femily Allowances are an 
integrated part of the whole question of social security 5, and 
has so statedo The members of this Legislature will recall 
that I made this clearand definite statement on behalf of 
the Ontario Government on August 9th last: "We are in favour 
of every proper step being taken to encourage large and 
healthy familieso ffe believe in sound provisions for Family 

» 173 - 2-22-45 

i£r. Drew 

Allowances and social security*" That was our position 

theno That is o;u' position to-day* I have stated over 

and over again that we regard Fanlly Allowances as one 

of the most important social services; that it is therefore 

within the exclusive constitutional jurisdiction of the 

provinces; that the provinces must be consulted if there is 

to be any effective administration of Family Allowances; 

and i have publicly urged over and over again thtit there 

be a Dominion-Provincial Conference to settle the basis upon 

which the Dominion and Provincial governments of this 

country can best combine their legislative authority for the 

benefit of all our people. 

The problem with which this and every provincial 

government is faced has been stated most clearly by the 

Honourable Stuart Garson, Premier of Kanitobao l will q[Uote 

his own words on the subject: 

"We are still puzzled as to 
one of the most important pointso 
oooffe have no information before 
us which indicates conclusively 
whether the Doioinion G-overnmsnt itself 
regards and justifies Family Allow- 
ances primarily as a social security 
measure J or as an instrument of 
federal fiscal policyoooo 

"It seems to me that the 
point here is that the Dominion 
Government in introducing Family 
Allowances without consulting the 
provinces 3 whose jurisdiction over 
the field of social services here- 
tofore in practise has been consider- 
ed almost exclusive p surely could 
not have intended to justify thefti sole- 
ly or even primarily as a social ser- 
vice measure^ As such they would 
constitute a federal intrusion in a 
provincial field of jurisdictiono 

That is the end of the quotation from MPo Garson' s 

statemento I do not believe the situation could be more 

clearly stated© If Faiily Allowances are to be regarded 

solely or even primarily as a social service measure, then 

174 - 2-22-45 


again to quote Mr. Garson*s words, "They would constitute 
a federal intrusion in a provincial field of 

Now we are told by the Minister responsible for 
the administration of this Act that it is part of a broad 
system of social securityo If that is so, and we have 
never been in any doubt that it was so, then this Act la 
an intrusion upon the provincial field of jurisdiction 
without any consultation with the provinceso In fact, 
the situation goes very much farther than that. Having 
disregarded the constitutional position of the provinces 
and their jurisdiction over social services in the intro- 
duction of the Act, the Dominion Government has refused 
repeated requests from myself — and may I say to those 
who think it is a special concern of mine — and other 
provincial premiers for a Domlnion'-Provincial Conference 
to discuss this and other invasions of our authority o 

I wish to assure the members of this Legislature 
that we have at all times made it abundantly clear that wo 
were not seeking to raise constitutional issues but that 
we were seeking, and will seek^ to avoid constitutional 
difficulties in the future, I have made it clear, and I 
believe the Premiers of other provinces have made it equally 
clearj that our purpose in insisting upon a Dominion- 
Provincial Conference immediately is not to raise barriers 
against measures which will be for the benefit of our people, 
but rather to make sure that we combine the full constitu- 
tional power of the Dominion and Provincial Governments, v/e 
also want to make sure that any measures that are adopted 
for the benefit of our people will not be upset afterwards 
by legislation carried into the coxirts to test their 

- 175 - 2-S2-45 

Mr. Drew 

People perhaps do sometimes forget that this Is 
not something that must be done only at the initiation 
of the Government. They perhaps will recall that what 
upaet the whole N.R.Ao in the United States was a man 
in Brooklyn who objected to the way the government of 
the United States sold chickens, and he took it into 
court and upset the whole NoRoAo 

We also wish to make sure that the highly trained 
and competent social service workers in the different 
provinces have their part in the administration of any 
plans of social security which may be adopted. 

Anyone, with the least knowledge of family and 
child welfare, knows that the health, housing, nurture, 
and all the interests of human beings, hang together in 
a well-integrated whole. You cannot deal with the human 
needs of a family to-day without relating closely all the 
resources in your social catalogue — material care, 
nutrition, housing, mothers* allowances, all forms of 
assistance, etc. So, your whole welfare security pro- 
gramme cannot be done on a bits and pieces basis. It has 
to be unified and its administration rests with the 
provinces unless the whole basis of confederation is to 
be destroyed. 

Now, only yesterday the Premier of Saskatchewan 
stated in the Saskatchewan Legislature, that the recent 
events in Canada have shown the need for a Dominion- 
Provincial Conference, as pressing problems have not 
received attention, and — and I quote — "they cannot go 
on much longero" 

He said, further, that it was necessary that there 
be a Dominion-Provincial Conference of premiers to meet 

- 176 - 2-22-45 

MTo Drew 

with Prime Minister Mackenzie King- and I quote again — 
"and develop the means of secxiring more amicable relations 
with the Dominion and also discuss the basis of re-confed- 
era^ion. There must be a discussion of postwar plans so 
that we will not face a great economic catastrophe." 

With that statement I quoted, I am in entire 
agreement o It represents the exact position taken by this 
province o 

In view of these statements 5 the members of this 
Legislature should be informed of the position we have * 
takeno It is my duty to inform themo Since this Legisla- 
ture last met, when we last had an opportunity to discuss 
this matter, we have made numerous requests for meeting with 
the Dominion Government to discuss this and other subjects » 
Ihen MTo King stated that there would be no conference until 
after an election «— he made that statement, as you will 
recallj somewhere about the middle of last August -•» I did not 
even then give up hope that we might convince him of the 
necessity J and I wrote again to him pointing out how 
necessary it was that a conference he held and that no person- 
al differences of opinion should interfere with that 
conference o 

In his reply to me on September 9th he disposed of 

my request in these words -«• and I quote: 

"As to the time for holding 
the Dominion-Provincial Conference, 
there is nothing I can add to what 
I have already said in the House 
of Commons a" 

That letter arrived while I was away from my office, and in 

my absence the Hono Leslie Frost wrote to him on 

September 21st las to These are the two closing Paragraphs 

of his letter, and I ask you to listen to them carefully in 

177 - 2-22-45 

Mr o Dr ew 

view of the reiiuests that have been made by other 

provincial governments in this last few days* He said: 

"The Government of Ontario, 
with its some nine hundred municipali- 
ties has formulated very necessary 
plans for postwar work^ On these 
plans depend the employment of tens ' 
of thousands of our citizens and 
the re-establishment of very great 
numbers of our service man and women 
and munition workers. Long ago we 
reached the point where it was appar- 
ent that there should be a Dominion- 
Provincial Conference to discuss and 
determine matters which are vital to 
the carrying out of the schemes of 
the Government of Ontario, and the 
municipalities of the province* 
We have accordingly urged a conference* 

"In order to assist the Dominion 
Government to defeat the axis enemies 
the province gave to the Dominion 
certain of its taxing and other 
powers This was done patriotically 
and in good faltho We feel that with 
the approach of peace we are about 
to be faced with a task which will be as 
great in iragnitude as that of waging 
the waro It is plain that in order to 
make our plans effectives, we must have 
a clear understanding concerning our 
taxing powers and other matters© 

"The year which has now elapsed 
since the Dominion-Provincial Conference 
was asked for has retarded the plans of 
the province, and with it, the plans of 
the municipalities and industryo V/e 
feel iii the interests of everyone that 
a conference should be held iramediatelyo 
.*e have been ready for months,," 

That is the end of the quotationo That letter, 
as I said, was written by Hono IJro Frost in my absence, on 
September 21st las to 

ISTo Speaker, to that courteous, reasonable and 
vitally iriiportant request, in the interests of the people 
of this province and of Canada, there has never to this day 
been any reply or acknowledgement of any kindo 

In spite of that, I r.^^ated my request for a 
conference the day before the opening of this session, in 

~ 178 - 2~2S-45 

IiiTo Drew 

the following wire, dated February 14th -- and I quote: 

"Increasing hope of victory 
In Europe this year makes it impera- 
tive that at least a preliminary meet- 
ine be held between representatives 
of the Dominion and Provincial Govern- 
ments to settle basic principles of 
ir.tergovernraental co-operation in pre- 
paring postwar plans for construction, 
rehabilitation and social services^ 
Without entering into any discussion 
of earlier reasons which you gave for 
not calling a Dominion-Provincial 
Conference I do wish to express my 
firm conviction that a start must be 
made imm;ediately if there is to be 
orderly planning for the future o 
No matter when the first meeting is 
called it will only be the beginning 
of a series of conferences and I urge 
you at least to ask the premiers of the 
provinces to meet you in Ottawa immediate- 
ly if you are not prepared to call a 
Dominion-Provincial Conferenceo No 
matter what differences of opinion 
have existed between the heads of any 
governments in the past I believe that 
the welfare of Canada demands that these 
be forgotten in face of the obvious need 
for a meeting at the earliest possible dateo" 

To that wire I have received no answePo I believe 
that the request I made is of the utmost importance o I 
believe it was made in terms which at least called for some 
responseo Having regard to the fact that right across 
Canada serious friction is developing between the Dominion 
and Provincial Governments » as the result of the complete 
disregard by the Dominion Government of the constitutional 
responsibilities of those Provincial Governments j I am 
certain that the very least which should be done is to have 
a meeting of the premiers of the provinces to lay the 
foundation for more effective intergovernmental cooperationo 

In no single case is that so necessary as in the 
case of family allowances, and particularly in view of these 
statements reported to-day^ The announcement from Ottawa 

- 179 - £-22-45 


last night that the Women's Voluntary Services are to 
handle the registration forms and sort out th* 
information, raises a question of the utmost oonoom 
to every Canadian. Intolerable although it is for the 
oonstltutlonal Integrity of a free province to have its 
who It structure of social servlots ooaxplettly dlsrtgairdfd, 
this announcement has the effect of destroying the 
sanctity of the home, and the privacy of the indlTldoalt 

To British subjects everywhere, the home has bean 
a castle, where not even the King may enter except by 
Invitation or legal ivarrant. Now we are told, however, 
that parents who apply for this allowance will be laying 
•pen all the details of thalr lives, their marital status 
and relations, seorats bravaly and sadly borna, traetdita 
proudly tndurtd, to the reading and examination of thoit 
who no matter how admirable they may be as IndlTlduala, 
art| after all, neighbours living In tha saaa community 
who art bound by no aath of off lot, nor by tha tradltieui 
and oontral of our slowly davalopad staff In tha publlo 
and private welfara ssrvloas* 

MS. L. GRSIVD: ROBINSON (Watarloo South): £»• 
Spaakar, en a point of ordar; is thara a tins limit ta 
thaaa stataoants whloh ara mada bafera tha Ordari of tha 

EON. LESLIE E. BLACKWEU (Attornay Qanaral): 
Don't you like it? 

IIR. SPEAKER: I think the hon. PrlAa Minister la 
quite in order. 

UR DREW: Perhaps, if tha hon* member far Waterloo 
South (Mr. Robinson) would write to the ^n. Ur» Douglaa 
he would find out how long he talked en this subject. 

- 180 - 2-22-45 

Mr. Drew 

MR. ROBINSON (Waterloo South): Not a bad man to 
quote fromo 

VSR, DRETT: He has shovm much more co-operation 
in this, than the Right Hono Prime Minister of Canada. 

But I will continue Our Children's Aid 
Societies, are great Protestant, Catholic and Jewish 
welfare bureaus, and other trained agencies dealing with 
the family are completely disregarded. 

To subject the parents of this province, and 
especially those of low income, who have not been able to 
avail themselves of the full opportunity for education, 
to the interrogation or even advice of those without 
special training, would be a shameful thing. Nothing 
that I have said carries anj'- reflection upon the splendid 
women who have worked so hard in the Women's Voluntary 
Serviceso I know that their patriotic motives are of 
the highest, but they banded themselves together for patriot- 
is war services, and not for civilian social work. Anyone 
with any experience in dealing with family matters of this 
kind, realizes the necessity for long training, for a 
high degree of responsibility, and above all, for complete 
secrecy in regard to many unhappy details which must, of 
necessity, be disclosed in cases of this kind. 

There are recognized provincial agencies, both 
©f the government and of private organizations, with a 
proud record of many generations of actual administration 
of social services* They are fully qualified to under- 
take this or other social administration. The announce- 
ment last night that these organizations are being coiaplete- 
ly disregarded, to say nothing of the trained staff of the 

- 181 - 2-22-45 

Mr. Drew 

provincial departments of public welfare, is a challenge 
to every basic principle of constitutional government in 
thia country. The provinces have their field of 
jurisdictien. The Dominion Governcaent has its own 
responsibilityo No one in this country can possibly 
benefit by any action of the Dominion Government beyond 
the field of its own aiiithority, no matter how attractive 
its promise may appear to be. 

Family allowances only have a place as part of an 
integrated plan of sustained employment and social security. 
As Premier Garson has so clearly pointed out, there has 
never been any doubt about the jurisdiction of the provinces 
over the field of social services. 

I repeat, with the utmost emphasis, that we are in 
favour of a proper system of family allowances, properly 
administered. But it would be nothing short of a breach 
©f public trust to disregard the serious consequences of 
the course now being followed by the Dominion Government. 
The glowing promises of the Dominion Government are being 
built around a constitutional house of cards. 

In view of these two announcements last night, to 
irtiich I have referred, I must repeat with the utmost 
earnestness the same request which has been made by the 
Premier of Saskatchewan yesterday, and which has been made 
by other provincial Premiers in the last few weeks. 

I am convinced that there is no single step so 
necessary in meeting our domestic problems as a Dominion- 
Provincial Conference, or, failing that, a conference of 
Premiers to discuss the best plan for carrying into effect 
family allowances, and other measures of social security, 

- 181^ 2-22-45 

as wall as the broad basis for postwar construe tlon and 
rehabilitation, ^o postpone such a conference until 
after a dominion election, whenever that may be, may 
jeopardise for years to come the welfare of the whole of 
Canada . 

MR. SRWKSR: . The Chair recognizes the hon. member 
for St» Andrew (Mr, Salsberg), 

ME* JOSEPH B. SALSBERG (St. Andrew): Mr, Speaker, 
I would like to direct a ciuestion to the hon. Prime Minister 
and inciuire when he intends to call the motion I have on 
the Order Paper » 

Mto Speaker, in view of the fact that the motion 
calls for the setting up of a Select Committee to make certain 
studies and recommendations to this Eousa ., any failure to act 
upon the motion early in the session may prevent any action 
being taken during the life of the session, which normally 
is not very long, 

I would, therefore, appreciate it if the hon. 
Prime Minister would agree to call the motion now, or make 
clear when he intends to call it. 

HON. a^ORGJi; A. DRiiVY (Prima Minister): Mr. Speaker, 
in view of the earlier announcement, it is not the intention 
to call the motion now, but I will state on Monday what our 
intention is in respect to this motion. 

MR. SPEiKiiR: Orders of th« Day, 

KR. M, F. HEPBURN (Elgin): Mr. Speaker, before 
the_ Orders of the Day are called, I would like to discuss a 
question which was raised by the hon. Prime Minister, and 
properly so, i think, and I think you exercised good judgment 
in allowing him to proceed. I do not think we should be 

182 - 2-22-45 

. Mr»Hepburn (Elgin) 

bouncd by hard and fast rules in this House, particularly 
when a matter of great public importance is being 

1 was one of those who raised an objection when th« 
?afliily lllowances bill was introduced into the Dominion 
parliament, I thought it was ill-timed action on the eve 
of a general election in the province of Ontario, and I do 
doubt the authority of the Dominion to enact legislation 
of that kind, I share the view of the hon* Prime Minister 
that social measures come under the Jurisdiction and 
authority of the provincial governments. 

Since then, the situation has been rather clarified. 
The bill was passed imanimously in the Dominion parliament. ■ 
Every Tory voted for the aioasure, and Jvj'j?., Graydon made the 
announcement and said that he was voting for the motion 
with the complete approval of his leader, Mr. John Bracken. 

Now we come to the present situation. I refer to 

the speech made by the hon. Prime Minister of Ontario on 

August 9th last over a provincial-wide hook-up, when he said; 

"That the advice of the very 
able Attorney General of the province 
is that family allowances are entirely 
within provincial jurisdiction." 

Since then, legal opinions have been given by other 
great lawyers to the effect that the Dominion can legislate 
any kind of measure in the interests of Canada. In other 
words, the Dominion can pay any sum it sees fit out of the 
federal treasury to any person whom the Dominion sees fit 
to pay that money to. 

So there you have a conflict of legal opinion, and 
far be it from me, a farmer, to try and interject any 
further opinion into the legal controversy of this kind. 

i83 ^ 2-*22'-45«pb\irn (Elgin) 

except at the outset I feel that the social measures 
should be under the provincial Jurisdiction^ but at the 
same time you have the over-riding authority of the 
Dominion government which enables them to legislate for 
what is called "in the best interests of Canada as 
a whole.* 

I have listened with considerable interest to the 
hono Prime Minister, He took considerable time, and 
I am glad he did, but I do wish he had bean more specific. 
He wandered all around the lot,, and wa could not find 
just where he stood, •▼en after he had talked for half an 
hour , 

But I would like to go back to > xS apeach of the 
9th of AuguBt, Among hie objections ^e pointed out that 
many millions of dollars from the pockets of the people 
of Ontario would go to the good people cf the province of 
Quebec, under this measure » 

MR, DRSW: Mr, Speaker, I have been asked a q^uestion, 
and I would point out that I made a statement to this 
Legislature, and the remarks, under the rules, must be 
directed to that statement. As I say, I made a statement, 
and I believe the remarks should be confined to that. 

MR. SPEAKER: I want to extend the widest possible 
latitute to hon. members of this House, and especially to 
the leaders of the various groups. If you asked me for my 
opinion, I would say that this diecuasioa is out of order. 
The hone Prime Minister asked for permission to make a 
statement in the public interest, and he has done that. It 
is not debatable. I would ask the hon. members from now 
on to bear in miad that statements such as this are not 
debatable o 

184 - 2-S2-45 

MToHepburn (Elgin) 

MR. HEPBURN {Elgin]: We had .no ^in-ti0Bl; i.0 B 
whatever that the hon. Prime Mi.nister was going to talk 
half an hour on this tiUestion, ijn I privileged to go on? 

MR. SPEAKER: I am very happy to accord you the 
privilege, but I wleh to warn the hon. members that this 
eaanot go on indefinitely^. Tou are at liberty to go ahead 
and complete your addrasa, but I cannot afford this 
privilege to the whole House, 

MR. A.B. JOLLIFFE? (Leader of the OppoaitionJ: Mr. 
Speaker, I would like to sjjggsst thfet the hon. member for 
Elgin (MTo Hepburni, the Lfiader of th« Liberal party, be 
extended the courtesy of the Honse to state his own position 
with respect to this matteriv, in v-iev of tna macnner in which 
it has been raisedj, and tb.? time at which it has bean 
raised, and in fu.rther vIsk of the Aioa,. member*a own past 
connection with the taatter., 

MR. SPSAKEHj Jba the hon-, .Oieoibers Js^now, I am in 
no position to do that, but I am qaite happy to accord that 
privilege to the hon. member for iilgin (Mte Hepburn), but 
hon« members must realise that I do not make the rules; I 
simply administer theme If hon. members want to partici- 
pate in these discussions, then it must follow a motion to 
adjourn the House, ^here is no adjournment of the House 
moved, and the hon. Prime Minister sixapiy asked to speak 
before the Orders of the Day were called. 

MR. DRiSW: Since the remark was directed to me ,Mr 
Speaker, may I say that I am ralsiftj? no objection to the hon. 
member for £lgin (Mr, Hepburn) stating his position, but he 
is attempting to state my position* I h&irQ no objection 
T7hatever to him stating his position, but he should not 
attempt to state mine. 

185 « 2-22-45 

Mr* $p«akor 

MR. HEB3URN (Elgin) : MTo Sp«akar, I am only 
quoting tha words of th« hono Prim* Minister delivered 
over a national hook-up on the 9th of August last. Hera 
la a Tory pamphlet which was broadcast to every 
individual, and is in the hands of all the peopla of 

I am asking him what his main objection is. 

ly|R* DREW: At that time you seemed to agree with 
ma — 

UR. HEPBURN (Elgin) i I do not think you are vary 
happy about thiso It is just another case where we have 
the hon« Prime Minister in a corner. 

Is your objection to the fact that many millions 
of dollars from the pockets of the people of Ontario will 
go to the people of Q,uebec5 under this neasure? Do you 
still stand on that position? Those are your own words., 
spoken over the radio, and printed in your pampglet, TO 
get anything definite from the hon. Prime Minister is Ilka 
nailing jelly to the wallo 

MR. DREW: I did not notice the hon. mmbar for 
Elgin (Mro Hepburn) referring to Ontario as the "milch cow 
for Canada. 

MR. HEPBURN (Elgin): Mr* Speaker, I am not thin 
sklzmad at all« I have been tossed around on the turbulent 
sea of politics for a long time, but I will not allow tha 
hon. Prime Minister to belittle me in this way, and I aak, 
Ur* Speaker, that the hono Prima Minister withdraw that 

MR. DREW: What remark? 

MR, HEPBURN (Elgin) : The fact that I should not 
be taken seriouslyo 

MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day, 

186 « 2-22-45 

MTo Hap burn (Elgin) 

MRo HEPBURN (Blgln) : I am asking you if tha hono 
gantleman (tho Prime Kinistar) is in ordar in saying to 
this House that I^ hava had tha confidance of my 
elactors for ninetefen yaars^ should not be taken serious- 
ly. I am not thin skinned — 

SOME HONo IffiaffiERSs WithdraWo 

MRo SPEAKER i Let us keep our haadso I extended 
the hon. raember for Elgin (MTo Hepburn) the privilege of 
completing his statement . but this is getting out of ordero 
Let us get on with the Orders of the Dayo 

MRo HEPBURN (Elgin) 2 No^ Mr., Speaker, I i,vant to 
ask you to make a ruling as far as the hono Prime Minister's 
remark is concerned, whether that is a personal reflection 
or not J and to ask you to direct that he withdraw it<, You 
make a ruling . and if it is contrary to the opinion I hold, 
I 7/111 have to asii the House to vote on ito 

MRo E.BoJOLLIFFE (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. 
Speaker, may I speak on this point of order? While I do not 
think there is any deep point of constitutional law involved 
by the rules of this House, I do not think that any other 
hono member of the House might well have taken exception to 
what the houo Prime Minister said, and I think that the hon. 
member for Elgin (Mro Hepburn) is within his rights in taking 
exception to what the |iono Prime Minister has said. 

After allj, other people have been checked up, and 
perhaps some of them properly so, if they cast any reflections 
•upon other houo members, and in this instance I think, Mr. 
Speaker, that the ends of justice might well be served if 
the houo Prime Minister would see his way clear to withdraw 
the remark which was mad© about an hoUo member of this House, 

187 - 2-22-45 

Mr» H«pburn (Elgin) 

s«nt h«r« by his const ituents^ and no matter how much we 
agree or disagree with him, ha is entitled to a certain 
modisun. of courtesyo I suggest that the hon. Prim* Minister 
withdraw the remark, and I suggest, IvITo Speaker, that you 
could properly rule, if he does not do so, that the remark 
should be withdrawno It was of an extremely personal 
character;, and I would not be in th* least surprised, if I 
made such a statement regardins the hono Prime Minister, that 
he would take strong exception to ito 

HONo GEORGE A DRE^ (Prime Minister)? Mr,, Speaker, 
since it has reached this pointy it is really a temptation — 
I cannot help smiling when I think of the words and epithets 
to whj ch this Chamber h&s listened at other timeso I wish 
Some of the hon... members ^Axo were not here,^ could listen 
to some of the things the bono member for Elgin (MTo Hepburn) 
has thrown around,, 

}rlRo HEPBURN (Elgi/n) ; Mr,, iipeaker,, I do not want to 
be lectured by the hon„ Prime Minister o I am asking you to 
make a definite ru lingo 

MRo SPEAKER: Had I heard anything that struck me 
as being offensive, I would have ruled it out of order without 
any request being madeo There have been jocular remarks on 
both sides of the House, and a certain amount of laughter, 
but I rule that I have no ri^t to ask the hono Prime Minister 
to withdraw the remarko 

MR» HEPBURN (Elgin) i Then it comes back to the old 
process of law,, "When you have no case, abuse your cliento" 
I move, Mro Speaker, that the hono Prime Minister withdraw 
that remarko 

MRo DREIV^ This is simply a tempest in a teapot. 
The hono member for Elgin (Mro Hepburn) himself made a remark 

- 188 » 2-22-45 

MTo Drew 

which I should have asked hla to withdraw. 

MRo HEPBURN (Elgin) ; What remark? 

MR, DREWS He said I have not the courage to do 
a certain thingo However, LtTo Speaker, if he is so thin 
skinned, I will withdraw the remark and leave it to his 
imagination what I will say on another occasion. 

im. HEPBURN (Elgin); I. will just say that the hono 
Prime Minister has conducted himself in his usual 
gentlemanly manner o 

MRo SPEAKERS Orders of the Dayo 

MRo AoAo MacLBOD (Bellwoods) s Mr© Speaker, with 
your indulgence — 

MR. SPEAKER: The hon, member for Bellwoods (Mr. 
MacLeod) did not ask for permission tc raise a matter before 
the Orders of the Day, and I am culling the Orders of the 

MRo MaCoLEODi Mr* Speaker, I ask yo\ar indulgence. 
The statement made by the hono Prime Minister has a direct 
bearing on a question raised by me a few days ago — 

MRo SPEAKER: I am sorry, but it is out of ordero 
questions raised before the Orders of the Day are not 

MRo MacLEOD: This is a matter of personal privilege, 

MRo SPEAKER: I have ruled that you are out of 
ordero Take your seaty p lease o 

MRo MacLEOD g I am sorry^ Mto Speaker, but I will 
have to challenge that rulingo 

MR. HEPBURN (Elgin): Yesj go ahead and challenge 

MR. SPEAKER? Call in the members o 

LIR. EoB. JOLLIFFE (Leader of the Opposition): 

- 189 .- 2-22-45 

MTo MacLeod 

This is an appeal frora your ruling on a point of order. 
We on this aide of the Hou-J-e would like to knew vftiat the 
point of order is, and what the bono laejaber was attempting 
to say. 

As far as I am concerned, I heard almost nothing 
of vjhat he was trying to sayo I do not know whether he was 
rising on a point of priTilegSo If h© was, the rules 
provide it should be taken into consideration at onceo 

MRo SPEAKER: That is not the point at alio I 
made a ruling, that when any hon., mamber comes to the 
Speaker before the House raeiets and asks for the privilege 
of raising a point befcfore the Orders cf the Day to discuss 
a matter of public importances he Is grj?.nted that privilege, 
after placing his application in vKfitingo Then he is 
confined to making that statemento If he directs a question 
to an hono Ministers he in enti1?iftd to an answer „ but it is 
not debatableo The hon., member for Bellwoods (MroMacLeod) 
did not ask the privilege to raise a point before the Orders 
of the Dayo The hono Prime Minister did so, and that privi- 
lege has been accorded to him. Now the hono member for 
Bellwoods (MTo MacLeod) wants to speako 1 have nothing on 
the agenda to show that he wanted to speak before the Orders 
of the Dayo He has appealed my rulingo Gall in the members, 

MR. ARTHUR WILLIAMS (Ontario): ISTo Speaker, would 
you accept a suggestipn,, by accepting a motion for an adjourn- 
ment of the House to discuss this matter of major public 
importanceo If you agree to accept such a motion, I shall 
be happy to move oneo 

MR. 3PEAKSR ; I am sorryo The hono member for 
Bellwoods (Mi'o MacLeod) has appealed my ruling, and I will 
ask hii at the proper time to state his point of order o 

- 190 - 2-22~45 

MTo Speaker 

We will go on with one thing at a timeo 

MR, H]iPBURN (Elgin) ; Are we to take it that the 
procedure in this HousOj hereafter, is that if the honoPrime 
Minister projects Into the debate qodb thing of a highly 
controversial nature, no other members are permitted to 
reply? I, think the hon. member for Bellwoods (Mr, MacLeod) 
should be permitted to make his statement, because he raised 
the question two days agOc 

MRo MacLEOD: And 1 got the "'byush-off >; " 
MRo SPSAiCSRs I interpret the rules as I read them, 
My understanding is that when an hon. member asks for the 
privilege of rising before the Orders cf the Day;, to raise a 
question of public importances wnatever he says„ or whatever 
question is raised, is not debatable,, 

ifflo JOLLIFFEi May I movej as a loatter of courtesy, 
that the hono member for Bellwooas \llac., iioicLecd) be permitted 
to speako If you do not accept my motionj, I v/lll have only 
one course to follow, 

MR, SPEAKERS I expected you wculdo 
MR. V/ILLIAIvIS: That is uncalled foro You may be 
the Speaker, but it is not your function to insult people, 
im, SPEAKER: Nor you, eithero 
MRo DREW I If there is any statement that will 
shorten this, I for one am raising no objection to hearing, 
with the consent of the Leader of the Opposition (li,!Ir. Joliiffe), 
the hon, rrember for Bellwoods ^MTo MacLeod), If you approve, 
Mr, Speaker, I am agreeable that we hear his statement. All 
I know is It would appear some question was being raised 
about something which was asked of me^ and which i answered. 
If there is a statement to be inade, I shall agree with the 
Leader of the Opposition — 

- 191 - 2-22-45 

Mr. Spea. - r 

15-. SPEAKER: If there is no object!. \ taken by 
4 f.y hoHo Members of this House, I accord th ■ hon. member 
TfiSr^Jiali .roods (Mr. I/iacLeod) the privilege o - speaking. But 
I //Ti'nt to say again that I do not write theh'ules of the 

i3R. HEPBURN (Elgin) : 1 understood you made a 
ruling v/'ljich has been challenged. You should call In the 
members. The hon. Prime Minister was out of order, 
because once the division bell rings no member is permitt- 
ed to speak, 1 am simply giving you a little lesson in 
parliamentary procedure, 

MR. A. A. MacLEOD (Bellwoods) : u. Speaker, I felt 
that I .was quite in order in rising to offer a comment or 
two, and I shall be very brief, on the remarks made by the 
hon. Primje Minister j because what ho had to say had a direct 
bearing on the very forth-right and simple question address- 
ed by me to him a day or two ago, in which I quoted 
paragraphs from his speech of the 9th of August, including 
that portion in which ho said that the Governmont would do 
everything in its power to prevent this iniquitous bill from 
going into effect. And he added to that, that the 
Government would not concur in any such high-handed action. 

My question is as follows: 

"Is the position taken by 
the Premier on August 9th still the 
considered policy of this Government? 
If so, what steps has the Government 
taken, or what stops does it contem- 
plate taking to give effect to that 
implied threat? And, thirdly, 

would the Government ask this Legis- 
lature to concur in any steps it has 
taken or contemplates taking in 
connection with his statement of 
August gth?" 

I submit, Mr« Speaker, that that was the proper 

occasion for the hon. Prime Minister to give an answer 



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- 192 « 2-28-45 

Mr. IiuacLeocl 

to tha' question, broken into three parts. Instead, 
he gave tob the "brush~off" and said that at the 
appropriate time he woxild deal with this iatter, and 
he intimated he would make his contribution through 
the Throne Speech debate. 

Instead, he has seized upon an item in the papers, 
which most of us have not seen, and has used that as an 
occasion for making a thirty-minute oration. 

The point is there is no guarantee the hon. Prime 
Minister will not use up an equal amount of time every 
time "family allowances" happens to be referred to in the 
press. And we may use up an awful lot of time here. I 
think, therefore, the proper course for the hon. Prime 
Minister to pursue in line with what he said on the 9th 
of August, is to come forward like a man with a resolu- 
tlon, asking this Legislature to support or to oppose the 
position ha took on the 9th of August, because I can see 
BO point in the few weeks we will be here, in having 
orations by the hon« Prii&eMinister all around the subject, 
and preventing the Legislature from speaking its mind 
iq;>on it In a definitive way^ 

I, therefore, hope instead of subjecting us to this 
barrage of words, from which it is very difficult to 
distlAgulsh any clear line of actiono that the hon. Prims 
Minister make up his mind what he wants the Legislature of 
tlie Province of Ontario to do on this question, and let us 
dispose of it once and for alio 

If the hon. Prime Minister will face the result of 
asking this House to concur in the speech he made on the 
9tli of August, very well, and it will take just about thirty 
Blnutes to dispose of that and that particular subject will 

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193 « 2~22-45 

Mr* MacLeod 

be off the agenda for all tlmeo 

I don't know -« I question in ray own laindj, 
although I do not want to impute any ulterior motives, 
but there was something more than the long arm of 
coincidence in the fact that this particular day was 
chosen to get that into the record of this Assembly 
and into the press 5 because the Leader of the Opposition 
(MTo Jolliffe) was scheduled to open his debate on the 
Throne Speech to-day, and I cannot help but wonder 
whether or not these thirty minutes taken up with that 
customary and characteristic oratory of the hon^ Prime 
Minister was not calculated to deprive the hon. Leader 
of the Opposition (MTo Jolliffe) of the right to make 
his contribution to the debateo 

MRo SPEAKER: Orders of the Day^ 

HONo GEORGS Ai DREW (Prime Minister); Order NOolo 

THE CLERK OF THE HOUSE i First order: resuming 
the adjourned debate on the motion for the consideration 
of The Honourable the Lieutenant Governor at the opening 
of the sessiono 

IRo EDWARB Bo fOlLIFIB (Leader of the Opposition) s 
Mro Speaker, I wish, first of all to felicitate the hon« 
members who moved and seconded the address in reply to 
the Speech from the Throneo I can truthfully say to them 
that although there was a great deal in their speeches with 
which I could not agree ^ I recognized the honour which was 
conferred upon them ija being placed first and second in 
this debate* 

Mro Speaker, it is probably unnecessary for me to 
remind the House that we are meeting this year under 
circiomstances very different from those of a year agOo 

AJUi^iir ii. 

t'« JTBq aixit tatLt a doact 

Qtsd9b b&tsr- 




■ cr?, , .L&'xei. 

• - 194 - £-22-45 

Mr. MacLeod. 

The wbole international setting for the work of this 
Legislature and the work of the other provincial 
Legislatures which are meeting at this time is very differ* 
ent from what it was in Fehruary of 1944. 

It so happened that the first 
session of this Legislature was opened by His Honour the 
Lieutenant Governor one year ago to-day. And it may 
interest the House to be remined what the position was one 
year ago to-day throughout the world, or in those parts of 
the world where the present conflict is being decided. 

A year ago to-day, Mr. Speaker, General MacArthur's 
forces were still fighting over fifteen hundred miles east 
of the Philippine Islands. To-day they occupy Manila, and 
to-day other American forces are fighting within 750 miles 
of the heart of Japan. 

A year ago to-day, Mr. Speaker, the German armies 
were still arrayed along the lower reaches of the Dnieper 

A year ago to-day the Russians were taking Krivoi 
Rog and Vitebsk, and were engaged in driving Hitler's forces 
away from the immediate vicinity of Leningrad. To-day they 
are battering at the gates of Berlin. They have come many 
hundreds of miles since a year ago, inspired by their deter- 
mination to conclude this struggle, and conclude it soon, and 
led by gallant soldiers, such as our distinguished guest who 
was with us to-day. 

A year ago to-day, Mr. Speaker, our Canadian troops 
were still fighting in Southern Italy. Their allies were 
stopped at Cassino. Our other portions of the army were 

still in England, and the date of "D-Day" was one of the 
world's best kept secrets. To-day, the Canadian troops 
who ytetfe in England a year ago to-day are on the banks of the 

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-195 - 2-22-45 

Mr. Jolliffe 

Rhine and we are confident the day is soon drawing near 

when the struggle in which they have played such an important 

part will be successfully concluded. 

I wish to say in all humility that great credit 
is due to the fighting men of all our allies of this country. 
I thinlc we can take particular credit or particular pride in 
the accomplishments of those from our own country of Canada. 
We can think of the aontribUtions made by the men in the 
Royal Canadian Air Force since the early months of the war, 
and their very great sacrifices. 

I hope we shall not forget, either, the work done 
by the Royal Canadian Navy, with perhaps less publicity 
than has been accorded the other services, in convoying so 
many thousands of ships across the Atlantic, and accepting 
such very great responsibilities, which otherwise would 
have been thrown upon the British and American navies. 

And the men of our armies: however much they 
may have, sometimes, become the subject of political contro- 
versy, the men of our army since the invasion of Italy and 
since "D-Day" have cei'tainly shown that the confidence placed 
in them was fully Justified. We have felt that the confidence 
reposed in them by the people of this country was well merited, 
and I may add it proves that there was nothing fundamentally 
wrong with those many thousands of men, who, before this war, 
could not even get a Job. There is nothing very much wrong 
with men like "Smoky" Smith, V.C, now one of the heroes of 
our army. A few years ago he was one of the unemployed. 

I am filled with regret, when I say that unfortu- 
nately many of us cannot feel the same confidence in the 
rulers of the fighting men of the United Nations, as they do 
in the fighting men themselves. The last war was won 

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- 196 - 2-22-45 

Mr. JolLiffe 

t>y the fighting men, and then the peace was lost by their 
leaders. We all hope that is not going to happen again, 
but I fear we shall be disappointed in that, unless the 
aspirations of the common people are better recognized, and 
unless the smaller nations, as well as great powers, have a 
real voice in the settlement , now, and at the conclusion of 
this war« 

It is perfectly obviouc that as the end of the war 
draws nearer -- and it is drawing nearer -<= the responsibili- 
ties of this province, of this Government and of this Legis- 
lature are becoming much greater. We now face the probabili- 
ty of the end of the war in Europe before there is any 
Dominion-Provincial Conference. I think: I should make it 
perfectly clear that for a long time the C.C.F, members of 
the Legislature in six other provinces hare asserted , the 
need for a Dominion-Provincial Conference to consider and re- 
consider the postwar future of this country, but to arrive 
at an appropriate division of responsibility of planning 
between the federal and provincial authorities. And we are 
now obliged to assume, as a result of developments in recent 
months -» and we may as well be realistic and assume there is 
not lilcsly to be a Dominion-Provincial Conference before the 
conclusion of the war in Europe. I reiterate the suggestion 
we have made as a suggestion which was made officially on 
behalf of the Co-operative Commonwealth Federation in Ottawa 
on the 1st day of September, 1944, and the suggestion 
made yesterday in the Saslsatchewan Legislature by the Hon. 
Mr. Douglas -- I reiterate the suggestion that, notwithstand- 
ing any differences there may be between the right hon. 
Prime Minister of this Dominion and the hon. premiers of the 


- 197 ° 2-22»45 

Mr. Jolliffe 

provinces -- that an attempt should be made without further 
delay to hold a Dominion-Provincial Conference. However, 
I recognize that the facts being what they are, it is not 
likely to take place, and I am, therefore, bound to point 
out that the present powers and responsibilities of the 
provincial governments and the legislatures are likely to 
be, when the war ends in Europe, exactly as they are to-day, 
because there will have been no agreement reached or any 
change, or any redirection in the financial or other relation- 
ships between the provinces and the Dominion. 

I am also bound to point out that the powers and 
rewponsibilities of this province are the same to-day as they 
were in the month of July, 1943, when the political parties 
represented in this House were all presenting their arguments 
to the people of Ontario. 

There is not going to be any change in the situa- 
tion unless and until the war ends, and the War Measures Act 
becomes inoperative, I assume, by proclamation, that a state 
of war no longer exists, in which event we would probably 
revert to the position before the war -- at least, we should 
revert to the position before the war constitutionally; T 
hope and trust that we will not revert to the position before 
the war economically and socially. 

And in that event, Mr. Speaker, if the war were to 
come to a complete end and the War Measures Act ceases to be 
operative, then I say that not only the powers of this 
province, but also its obligations will become much greater. 

I sometimes wonder when members of the Government 
have spoken about recovering the taxation powers they have 
given to the Dominion, for the duration -«■ I sometimes wonder 

- 198 - 2-22-45 

Mi". Jolliffe 

if they also stop to consider that with the return of 
those taxation powers, they are likely to get bacfc some 
very substantial responsibilities they do not have to bear 

And further, Mr. Speaker, as I have already pointed 
out, the present position will continue to be the same fol- 
lowing the end of the war unless and until a Dominion^ 
Provincial Conference arrives at a new division of our 
responsibilities, subject to approval by legislation. 

In most of the discussions about this (iuestion, I 
think there has been a tendency to lose sight of the fact, 
that the government are entirely subject to legislation* 
If there was an agreement made between the provinces and the 
dominion, we would expect — and I have no doubt the govern- 
ment would expect — to come back to this Legislature for the 
proper ratification. There would have to be legislation 
passed through this House, and also through the Dominion 

It is ecjually true ,, Mr, Speaker, that this 
Legislature is entitled to hear from the Government what will 
be the policy of the Ontario Government if, as and when the 
opportunity arises to represent this province at a Dominion- 
Provincial Conference. If there is any policy so far, 
it is shrouded in mystery, and I siiggest one of the major 
responsibilities of the Government at this session is to 
give a full and clear accaount to this Legislature of what 
policy the Government proposes to take to a Dominion- 
Provincial Conference. Let them learn from the hon. members 
of this House, whether our views are the same or different, 
and further, Mr. Speaker, throughout this whole controversy 
it is just as well to bear in mind that all the blame is not 
on one side by any means. 

We believe the right hon. Prime Minister of Canada 
to be wrong in refusing to call a conference at this time. 

- 199 - 2-22-45 

Mr. Jollifle 

on one side by any means. 

We believe the right hon. Prime Minister oX Canada 
to be wrong in refusing to call a conference at this time. 
Nevertheless, I must say that some of the pronouncements 
by some of the provincial governments have not assisted in 
bringing the conference any nearer, and I say here that 
although the conference ought to be held, it is very unlike- 
ly to success, if it is going to be used as a kind of 
political public address system, whereby rising politicians 
can address their remarks to the vshole nation. 

Now, Mro Speaker, the question of "family allow- 
ances'^, which is one the Government desires to place on the 
agenda of any Dominion- Provincial Conference, is a question 
which has a historyo Members of the Government are per- 
fectly entitled to hold the opinion that it is beyond the 
constitutional power of the Dominion to pass family allow- 
ance legislation* .Veil, they are perfectly entitled to make 
the strongest representations on that point to the Dominion 
Government, and while they are even entitled to carry the 
matter further and take it to the courts, if they so desire, 
the fact remains and it is a fact that the Parliament of this 
country has placed family allowance legislation on the statute 
books, and did it \manimously, with the concurrence of all 

Now, I do not wish to be misunderstood. It is 
also a fact that there was much criticism of the bill while 
it was passing through the Dominion House, and, indeed, it 
was not accepted by the members of the party with which 1 am 
identified as a thing of perfection. Far from it. There 
were many suggestions for changes to be mada, and in some 

- 200 - £-22-45 


particulars we tho\ight the bill to be defective. 

However, notwithstanding those objections, the 
bill was carried through Parliament. It is on the statute 
books; it is to take effect July 1st, and the federal 
minister has announced that payments are to commence in 
the month of July, and it is one thing to say that we ought 
to have been consulted about this, we ought to have had a 
voice ia framing this legislation, and in carrying out its 
administration — that is one thing; it is an entirely 
different thing, as the legislation becomes an accomplished 
fact, or after it has become an accomplished fact, to say, 
»We propose to reist this measure by every means within 
our power," or words to that effect. That is an entirely 
different matter. And the point of constitutional law 
Involved is a matter on which there is divided opinion. 

The end of the war is approaching, and whether the 
bill relates mainly to social service, or mainly to federal 
fiscal policy, the fact remains that it is on the statute 
books, and I assume that the families of this province will 
commence to receive their allowances in the month of July, 
and I further assume that the Government of the province of 
Ontario will not attempt to intercept remittance of this 
allowance by people who expect to receive it. 

Mr, Speaker, the present Government have had some- 
thing to say to-day about the family allowances question, but 
they did not, as far as I can recall, say anything about it 
in their programme of July, 1943, although we are now told 
here it is a provincial responsibility, that it is a matter 
of very great importance that it should be integrated with 
comprehensive arrangements for social security, and that many 
of these are within the provincial urisdiction. I recall 

- 201 - 2-22-45 

Mr. Jolliffe 

hearing nothiag said about this all-important matter 
in July of 1943. 

However, the Conservative programme of that year 
was very definite on many points. It was very definite 
on at least twenty- two points, of which the Family 
Allowances was not one. 

Now, Mr. Speaker, oar attitude to the position 
of the Government is fundamentally the same as it was 
a year ago. The circumstances miay be somewhat different, 
but our attitude is fundamentally the same. nYe are 
prepared, in this House, to support forward steps, ii^e 
will oppose others, regardless of the consequences. We 
shall most certainly oppose any reconfirmation of the 
principle that the Government of Ontario, at this juncture 
shoiSLld use every means in its power to resist the 
carrying into effect of the Federal Family Allowances 
Act. What we are even more concerned about is that the 
Government should implement those promises which the 
electors had a right to expect would be implemented and 
which represented a progressive, forward step, and for 
which the people of this province were asking. I have 
no doubt, whatever, that having been in office for over 
eighteen months the Government can claim to have done 
something with relation to each of every one of the 
twenty-two points, - some things trivial, and some import- 
ant, - but the undertakings given must be reviewed as they 
were made and as they were clearly and plainly stated to 
the people of Ontario. 

If the Government were frank enough at this time, 
or cared at this time to admit some of their failures, 
then, 1 think, much might be forgiven them. Instead of 

- 202 - 2-22-45 

Mr. Jolliffe 

that, I regret to find them gol]^ about the province 
boasting that they have kept all of their promises, - 
all of them, - and, of course, their adolatrous admirers 
of the Press, of whom there are a number «k» slag the 
same tune and taUc liosely and recklessly and shameless- 
ly about all the twenty-two points having been implement- 
ed, Now, Mr» Speaker, I am afraid that there somes a 
time when we ;)ust have to call a halt, and some of 
these pretensions must be exposed. I must say I regard 
myself as a member of a team in this opposition group. 
I do not pretend to be able to review or to even stiggest 
a small part of the great gaps in the Government's 
records which might well be exposed to the House, but 
other members of this group will be speaking in the 
course of this debate, and I am certain they will place 
before the Legislat\ire many matters quite as important 
as anything I may mention here to-day. 

Mr. Speaker, one of the most significant things 
about the twenty-two points was that in general they 
were of a progressive character* Now, that was not sur- 
prising to me, not in the least, because it had become 
perfectly clear that the whole world was moving in a 
progressive direction. The people of the democratic 
morld, at least, were expressing in many different ways 
their desire for social security, for social change on 
a basis of justice, and I think the temper of the people 
in Ontario was plain enough to the Leader of the Progres- 
sive Conservative Party in Ontario and to other parties 
at that time, hut it was not necessary for me to warn 
the people of Ontario, as I did, - and many others in the 
C»C.F. did, - that because a party takes on a progressive 


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- 203 - 2-22-45 

Mr. Jolliffe 

Hame, or adopts more progressive language, in harmony 
with the times, it does not necessarily follow that they 
have changed their philosophy or that their objects are 
really any different. I want to say what I am about to 
say is not going to be a tirade about broken promises in 
the old-fashioned political way. I think the time has 
come when we can out-grow that kind of thing. But the 
point is that the election in 1943 in Ontario was no 
ordinary election, I believe the people of this province 
expected the Government elected in 1943 to take office 
and to hold off f ice during the post-war crisis and to deal, 
or attempt to deal, with the tremendous problems which 
are going to confront our people in that all-important 
period, and for that reason I think the people of Ontario 
took very seriously the pledges which were given at that 
time by the Progressive-Conservative Party, by the CO, P. 
and by the Liberal Party» They expected to elect a 
Government which would take action, and that action must 
be taken if we are to keep faith with the people of 

It will be remembered, Bfir, Speaker, the very first 
of the twenty-two points was with reference to British 
institutions andBritish partnership. The Conservative 
Party pledged itself to do all in its power to maintain 
British institutions and strengthen British partnership 
as the best guarantee of Canada's spiritual and material 
welfare. Now, to-day the Government points to the re- 
opening of Ontario House as evidence that this promise is 
being fulfilled. I want to be fair, and I wish to tell 
the House, according to my info mat ion, Ontario House 
is rendering good service to Canadian Servicemen in i^ngland. 
I say it is rendering "good service to Canadian Servicemen" 

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- 204 - Z^ZZ-^d 


who find themselves in London from time to time, and I 
am very glad it is there for that reason, if for no 
other. I might say, however, I have not yet heard of this 
point from the hon. member for Hiverdale (Hr.Wlsmer} or 
West York (Mr. Mi Hard 1, who are in England at the moment, 
and it may be they will be able to inform the House more 
fully on their return, which I hope aad trust will be 

I cannot say we would approve of all the somewhat 
extravagant statements regarding the future of Ontario 
which appeard to have been issued from Ontario House, or 
from within its doors, but, in spite of ftll those 
eztravasant statements, -about tan million or twenty- 
five million or fifty million, whatever it is that 
we expeot to reoeive in this province, in spite of 
those extravagant statements, 1 thinJc Ontario House 
is doiBg a good Job at the present time. But the 
promise was much more than to re-open Ontario House. 
There was a reference to j^itish institutions, whioh 
particularly interests me. It seems to me, Mr, Speaker, 
there is much more to British institutions than a flag 
or an anthem or the opening of Ontario House > 
much more to it than that, I had the privilege of 
spending some years in Qreat Britain, and I had, in 
particular, the privilege of rather elose assooiatiom 
with two or three very characteristic British institu- 
tions, - very happy years they were, too, - and I 
think I can claim to know something about British insti- 
tutions, What most impressed my mind was this, that 
there are certain institutions reopgnized, consciously 
or unconsciously, by the majority of the people in that 
country, and I might describe them in this way; first 

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- £05 - 2-S2-45 

Mr. Jolliffo 

of all, ome very characteristic British iastitutioa^ 
the supremacy of Parliamemt aad the consiatemt respect 
for that principle. The supremacy of the Parliament, 
with a responsible Government acting as servant aid 
agent of the Parliament, and not as its mast era The 
British Prime Ministers do not give carders to their 
Houses; they make short speeches, and get along as best 
they can, and sometimes they get rather severely re- 
buked, but they have to carry the day on the strength 
of argument and on no other ground. 

Secondly, I was deeply impressed with the insti- 
tution of freedom of speech and discussion with exists 
in Great Britain, or certainly existed wJien I was 
there » And, it existed for both the big people and the 
little people, I can give, as an example of what I 
mean, not the usual example of the orator in Hyde Park, 
but I can give this example, the highest standard of 
academic freedom in the world existed^ in my opinion, 
in England: It was possible for a professor to say 
things v/hich, no doubt, no professor would care to say 
in this province, and even thought very few people might 
agree with him, it was still possible for him to say it 
and remain a ppofessor. 

Thirdly, -,and it is a very similar rule with 
respect for the rights of the minorities and for their 
point of view, - the rule, with respect for the fellow 
who finds himself in the small minority rather than im 
the majority, and a spirit of fair play in political 
controversy, violent and bitter though a political con- 
toversy may be, a very real spirit of fair play, even 
towards those with whom there was wide and fundamental 

- 206 - 2-22-45 


dis agreement* It is probably the only country I have 
ever bee a in, -^ aid I have beem 1h a good maay, - where 
I have heard the (juestioB raised about wide, fuadamental 
disagreement. I never heard it suggested that if the 
differences betv/een the political parts were too wide 
you cannot have political parties any more, or you can- 
not have elections any more. Britain is the only country 
where I never heard that ingenious suggestion, to be follow- 
as an excuse for totalitarianism, and also the 
recognition that democracies have to fujietion through the 
people, and therefore through their own voluntary 
organizations as well as through the local government 
and the Parliament and the Cabinet. 

And a very healthy respect exists, Mr. Speaker, 
for the individual consciences, together with acceptance 
of the principle that the will of the majority must 
prevail. I suppose that position has been established 
in Britain through years, like unpopular individuals, 
such as Charles Bradshaw and others, who destroyed the 
right of individual conscience but was upheld by others. 

finally, Mr. Chairman, 1 was impressed in that 
country, particularly, with the general belief that 
changes of a fundamental nature could be made in an 
orderly and democratic way, and that is the bast way 
to do it. It is probably quite unnecessary for me to 
remind the House that in that country they had the 
political and social r evolution, namely, the extension 
of the franchise to all the people, whether they had 
property or no property, and that was accomplished 
without bloodshed, even though it took a long time 
and even though there were many who did not agree when 

- 207 - 2-22-45 


it was eventually doae, but it was a step which ia 
other couatries has unfortunately caused much violence. 
That step was taken in Britain by the British in an 
orderly and democratic way. 

Now, ia my opinion these seemed to be among the 
more important British iastitutioas, and it is my 
hope, Mr. Speaker, that with the assistance of this 
Legislature British iastitutioas as important as these 
will be maintained in the proviace of Ontario. 

The second of the twenty-two points was a most 
interesting reference to cooperatioa with other provia- 
cial governments and with the Dominion Government. The 
administration plj-edges itself to cooperate fully with 
other provincial governments and the Federal administra- 
tion in fighting the war to a successful finish aad 
establishing social security for all citizens without 
sacrificing provincial control of provincial affairs. 
I am well aware that in the hon. Prime Miaister's 
view, his attitude aad that of the Government toward 
the Family Allowances question is completely consistent 
with the plBdge made ia that poiat No. 2. The Govera- 
meat have also referred to aumerous agreements with the 
Dominioa Government regarding war projects of various 
kinds, but ia that respect they are only doing their 
duty, aad in the province of Ontario are other course 
would have been unthinkable. The important point is in 
the first real test of social security legislation, or of 
Dominioa fiscal policy legislation, whichever it may be, 
la the first real test the province of Ontario did not 
merely state their objection to such legislation without 


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~ 208 - 2-22-45 

MTo Jolliffe 

comsultatioH; they did not merely state /'STe think we 
ought to have soxne share ia the admiaistratioa of the 
scheme", - they wemt very much further, becaiiee the hon. 
Prime Miaiater's speech oa the radio of, August 9th, 
1944, represented the very opposite of co-operation. 
They went much further than any discussion about family 
allow?aBCQs, and embarked oa a discussion of the 
characteristics of at least one other province which 
could aot possibly assist the cooperatioa between this 
proviaee aM others at any time, and which, I think 
represented a very serious blow to the iaational unity 
of this countryo NoWp the Gov0rKme».t is perfectly 
entitled to hold the views it does about the family 
allo?/anc©a» I say that ig one thisig,, but it is entirely 
another thing to go on the radio, and to say what the 
hoa. Prime Minister did en August 9ths 1044. It is 
perfectly clear, of course, the whole issue does show 
if anything were needed to show, the necessity for the 
clarification of this question.. I entirely agree we need 
to have them clarify it at the Dominion-Provincial 
Conference, I do aot know of any other way of doing it. 
The clarification will not be hastened by a tax on other 
proviaces . 

I am also 'waiting for some assurance from the 
administration that after their changes of general 
legislative grants for educational purposes they still 
feel prepared to take oa the family allowances 
provincially, I think they ought to admit right now, 
without very great chaages they could aot withia the 
present resources, or the resources of the immediate 
fut\ire, themselves finance the family allowances 




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- 209- £-22-45 

Mr. Jollliffe 

provincially. And I am reminded, Mr. Speaker, eighteen 
or twenty years ago, when the old-age pensions were 
under discussion, we also heard strong objections from 
the conservatives against the old-age pensions on the 
ground such a scheme should not be attempted without 
the agreement of the provinces or the participation of 
the provinces. Now, there was some merit, constitutionally, 
and legally, in what they had to say, but what many of 
them were prepared to say at some times and some places 
was that they did not believe in the old-age pensions, 
n.and that they thought such assistance would break down 
the morale of the Canadian working man and destroy his 
backbone and undermine his individual initiative. 
I am prepared to accept the assurances of the Govern- 
ment that they believe in the principle of family allow- 
ances, but what does concern us is that so often we find 
in this country resistance to necessary social legislation 
built on a purely constitutional argument or built on an 
argument about the rights, privileges and perogatives of 
the province against the Dominion or the Dominion against 
the province or the municipalities against the province, 
or vice versa. It is high time that the three levels of 
government came together and made very clear what our 
several responsibilities are, so that there will be no place 
for argument about social legislation or constitutional 
grounds, but we ought to be able to discuss them on the 
grounds of their social need and their social cause, and 
keep within the argument the considerations of constitutional 

There was point No. 3 in the twenty- two points, 
a very important one to my view, and perhaps the nearest 



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caiiaiq fiu- 

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- 210 - 2-22-45 

Mr. Jolliffe 

the Progi'essive-Conservative Party came to proclaiming 
their fundamental, political and economic philosophy. 
They pledged themselves to encourage priviate initiative 
in every field of employment, to support the farmers, 
factories, mineral and forest development, and other 
activities, by helpful legislation, tax reduction, and 
the removal of bureaucratic restrictions. Now, all that 
the hon. Prime Minister had to say about point No, 3, in 
his radio speech of December 13th, when he reviewed 
the record of the Government, was two sentences. He 
said, and I quote, "The farms, the factories, the mines, 
the forests and personal services were to be assisted in 
their efforts to increase employment and good wages. 
That has been done with positive and substantial results.** 
Now, perhaps it is a© wonder he had so little to say. 
Everyone icnows the present volume of agricultural preduc- 
tiofl and the p; esat volume of employment is due, almost 
entirely, to war expenditure, to the spending of the 
Dominica Government , with the entire support of the 
people ©f Canada, and the spending of several billions 
of dollars for the war and other necessary purposes. 
Under those conditions, no one can be surprised to find 
that the farm income is somewhat better than it was in 
Ontario, and that employment is considerably greater, 
to put it milding, thaa it was a few years ago, but the 
hoa. Prime Minister had nothing to say about roduoed 
taxes, and, after all, thero was reference, ia peint 
Ne.3. to tax reduotien* We shall, no doubt, hear more 
of that oa another ocoasien. V\rhat I am interested to 
know is, what is the meaning of the term "private 
initiative", as it was used in point Mo. 3. That term, 

-211 - 2-22-45 

Mr. Jolliffe 

of it"' "If, denotes something admirable, certainly, and 
I am full of admiration for people who show personal 
initiative, and I beliere that there are several million 
men in the Armed Foroes of the United Nations to-day who 
are showing very considerable personal initiative. I am 
sure it is to be encouraged, I can thinic of many other 
people in many other walks of life who also show this 
admirable quality of private initiative, ~ that is to say, 
without waiting for instruction or assistance, they do 
what they know to be best and to be possible under the 
circumstances. That is one thing, but I fear thei-e is 
some confusion between the use of that terrn, in its 
ordinary sense, and what the Conservatives had in mind. 
I think it is fair to say what they bad in mind was the 
use of private initiative in private enterprise, in 
business and in industry* I appreciate full well, and 
so does everyone of the CoCFo, that there is an 
important place for private initiative and there is an 
important place for private enterprise in business and 
in industry, in agriculture and in many other fields of 
endeavour, but the use of the term, with that admirable 
quality, in order to suggest that we can stake our future 
of private enterprise in the major enterprises of this 
country is, I think, leaning on a very broken reed. The 
crux of the matter is really this: sooner or larer the 
wheels of our war industries ivill grind to a stop, and sooner 
or later many thousands of workers in ithese industries will 
be on the street. Sooner or later several hundred thousand 
men and women in the Services are going to be demobilized,, 
and what we want to knew is, How is private initiative 
going to provide Jobs and security and equitable farm prices 



IS tree 

RSOiiq ffilBTt 9lC 


£12 - 2-E2-45 

Mr. Jolliffe 

and better housing, and so on, for these people? If 

we thought there was enough experience to indicate private 

initiative could meet that responsibility, or do that 

job, then we might be prepared to go along with those 

people in it, but we have seen no evidence to that 


Turning to agriculture for a few moments, Mr. 
Speaker, I think we are all familiar with the Govern- 
ment's pledge to set up committees of outstanding 
farmers in each county with authority to plan joint 
production and promote the processing and distribution 
of farm products, to take over all stockyards, and 
operate them as publicly-owned agencies, thus cutting 
out speculation and manipulation, which have proven 
Injurious alike to producers and consumers. 

Now, the Government, last year or the year before, 
set up an Agricultural Commission of Enquiry, and the 
Government, at the last session, sponsored legislation 
for the setting-up of an additional committee. So far 
so good, but I am puzzled by one point of the Speech 
from the Throne, and that is that no reference, whatever, 
that I can find, was made to the Agricultural Commission 
enquiry. As I understood it, great hopes were held 
for the result of that enquiry. As I understand it, 
people with other responsibilities were engaged for a 
period of time working with the Commission, and I am also 
familiar with the fact that a great deal of work was done. 
Now, apparently, if we are to draw any conclusion from the 
absence of any reference to the Commission in the Speech 
from the Throne, the conclusion would be this, that it is 
all going to be forgotten. There is no forecast that I can 

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- 213 - 2-22-45 

Mr. Jolliffe 

find in the Legislation to implement the recommendations of 
the Commission, whatever there may be, and I would have 
thought, in such an era, in regard to such an important 
question relating to the whole future of agriculture, that 
we would have received in the Speech from the Throne some 
indication of what the Government propos ed to do about the 
rt commendations of the Commission. After all, we had 
represented on that Commission some of the leading people 
of agriculture in Ontario, and they held many meetings. 
I am sure they did a great deal of work:, and we were told 
at the last Session their recommendations were coming 
forward, and the Government was going to give them the 
fullest consideration, and do whatever could be done to 
improve the position of our farmer. But, at this Session, 
sincere there is no reference to the matter in the Speech 
from the Throne, and since, unfortunately, the hon. Minister 
of Agriculture (Mr. Kennedy) is not able to be with us, I 
suggest the hon. Prime Minister, or some other hon. member 
of the Government, tell us fully and frankly just what it 
is all about. Do they come to the conclusion the recommen- 
dations of the Commission should not, or ought not, be 
Implemented? If they have complaints to make as a result 
of that enquiry, then let us hear all about them. I think 
a good deal of the mystery of a matter of this kind ought 
to be removed. 

Unfortunately, the House does not meet, generally 
speaking, more than once a year, and there is a long period 
elapses between one Session and another, and in that long 
period a good many of these mysteries seem to develop. I 
challenge the hon. Prime Minister to accept the opportunity 
which this Session provides, and take the House into his 

- 214 - 2-22-46 

Mr. Jolliffe 

confidence and tell us, as fully and frankly and freely, 
how, what he thinks about agriculture, as he did vrtien he 
was leader of the opposition, when the matter was 
frequently reached, as one of importance, as indeed it 
was. In fact, I think it is true to say, when the hon. 
Prime Minister was leader of the Opposition in the year 
immediately preceding the provincial election, agricul- 
ture was made the subject matter of the amendment by the 
opposition to the address in reply to the Speech from 
the Throne, indicating the importance they attached to it. 
I hope we hear much more about it at this Sessions than 
we did at the last Session. In OT^r view, of course, 
the appointment of the Commission was a good step, in 
the first place. Ne believe that the future of agricul- 
ture in Ontario depends, among other things, upon the 
organization of the farmers themselves. iVhatever they 
can do to help themselves is most certainly to be 
encouraged, and they are, after all, the best judges of 
the problems of their own industry now and in the future. 
However, when I say that, I am referring not only to the 
Commission and the enquiry, or the County Agricultural 
Committee, but also to the farmers' co-operative organiza- 
tions, which, I understand and I observe to-day are under 
bitter attack by big Dusiness in this country. .Vhen the 
farmers' cooperatives, Mr. Speaker, come under attack by big 
business, that is just about the best proof we have that they 
are doing a good Job for the farmer. The future of 
agriculture also depends on fair treatment by processing 
organizations, and it is no secret in this House we do not 
think the farmers are ever going to get fair treatment from 


- 215 - 2-22-45 

Mr. Jolliffe 

monopolistic processing organizations over which the farmers 
have no control, whatsoever. We do not think- they will ever 
get, - and I am not optomistic about the future of 
agriculture iA any province, — they will never get fair 
treatment until such time as the farmers themselves, or 
their representatives, can gain control of the important 
processing organizations, so that the benefits of modern 
efficiency can be based on agriculture. A great deal 
depends, also, on fair treatment by manufacturers. I do 
not suggest, for one moment, that the Government is in 
a position, or ever has been in a positioa, to step 
in and decree what the manufacturers shall charge the 
farmers for implements or other necessities, so there 
are some steps the Government could have taken, and sooner 
or later this country and this province will have to 
face up to the fact that the basic cause of an agricultural 
depression in Canada during the last thirty years has been 
price structure, monopolistic practices, the rigging 
arrangements of the implement manufacturers, and all other 
great concerns which do business with the farmers, and it 
is no small wonder Western farmers should tura, in desperation 
t© the establishment of the new implement organization which 
if it is engaged in the manufacturing of implements, it will 
be able to market the implements, and the implement business 
will cease to be the racket which it is to-day. I suppose 
the most important question of all is that of the prices 
which the farmer will receive. 

Now, it will be quite necessary for any hon. 
member on the other side of the House to inform us what 
prices to-day are under Dominion control. That ia quite 

- £16 - Z-^ZZ'^b 

Mr. Jolliffe 

unnecessary.. But what v/a wish to inform them 
is that after this war is over it is more than likely 
that prices will not be under Dominion control, - at 
leasts not exclusively under Dominion control, and we 
are .therefore, looking to the Government for an explanation 
©f the means whereby they hope to protect the farm prices 
•r to maintain adequate farm prices in this province 
after the v/ar is over^ It it, I say again, most regrett- 
able that the hon. Minister ©f Agriculture (Mr. Kennedy) 
is not able to be here, because there is a© Minister from 
whom we would rather hear on that subject. If the 
Government has any plans with respect to price control, 
or price regulation, if it has any plans for encouragement 
of organizations by the farmers themselves to bargain 
collectively for prices, then let us hear about it now, 
rather than after, the war, when It Tvill probably be too 
late . 

I do not associate a great deal with bankers, but 
occasionally I run into ©ne , and I had an opportunity, 
not 30 long ago, to come in contact with a friend of mine 
who has occupied a very high position with one of our 
chartered banks of this country for some time, and he 
expressed to me the unqualified ©pinion, which is his opinion, 
and may be no better thaa any other man's opinion, but it ia 
an opinion guiding the operations of one of this country's 
major banks, - he expressed to me the ©pinion that at the 
conclusion of the war there will be a period following the 
war net of Inflation, at all, but his opinion was that at the 
conclusion of the war there will be a period of acute 
deflation, that the sudden cutting ©ff, or progressive cutt- 
ing off, of the great volume of purchasing power from the 

- 217 - £-ii2-45 

Mr, Jolliffe. 

large aumber of workers aad farmers, and the fear of 
speadiag money, and tlae tkreat of i»securlty, aad the 
undoubted factor tkat our manufacturers have learned 
mere about the techaique of productien thaa they ever 
Icaew before, - aad they will very quicicly be able to malce i^p 
amy deficiencies there might be of coasumer goods, - all 
these factors, taken together, in the opinion of ray friend, 
will mean deflation very soon after the end of the war in 
Europe o It might be the opinion of others that he is 
entirely wrang, but, en the other hand, it might be that M*h 
the facts at his oommand it could be that his opinion is well- 
founded, and if that is so I fear that the farmers of this 
province might again be confronted with an era of falling 
priceso Desperate measures will have to be taken for their 
protecti©n» They need, therefore, not only a fair- price 
structure and an adequate marketing organization, but I 
suggest, Mro Speaker, in view of ths fact we do not know 
exactly whai tiiis th.X,AV-:j. may bring forth, they need sorie pro- 
t«cti»n ftr the stcurity •t tenur* •t th« farmar en his lakd 
in Ontario It is a most curious thing that in the province 
of Saskatchewan, which I had the privilege of visiting last 
summer, (and where I repeatedly heard our Liberal friend 
assuring the farmers if they elected the C.G.F. they would have 
their farms taken away from them,) ■ — it is a most curious 
thing that this election, which resulted in the election 
of the first C.C.F. Gdvernment in Canada, also resulted in the 
election of no less than thirty farmers among the C.C.F. group. 
They were, in fact, at all times the majority of the C.C.F. 
candidates in that election, and very broad were their smiles 

- Vi: 

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216 - 2-22-45 

Mr. Jolllffe, 

indeed;, when the Lioeral leaders held forth about the 
menace of the CoCoFo, which was going to confiscate their 
farms » The curious thing is, one of the first Bills 
introduced by that new Groveriunent in the Saskatchewan 
Legislature at the special session which was very swiftly 
called In October, 1944, was a Bill to protect the security 
of the Saskatchewan farmer in the occupation and ownership 
of his land, to protect him from losing his quarter section, 
one hundred and sixty acres, on which he and family lived, 
and on which they had their buildingSo That is the first 
step the Government took, and took it quickly. That is 
on© of the first steps of one of the first C.G.F. Governments 
in this osuntryo 

I am of the opinion this province could also do 
with legislation to protect the future position of the 
farmers in Ontario g ^A/ho have not yet any reason to 
assume that prices after this v/ar or the demand after 
this war will be anything like they are to-day. To be 
forewarned is to be fore-armed- and I should think wo 
would bo well advised to give soma thought to that 
question without any further delay. 

There was a corresponding point in the Conserva- 
tive programme f the one about Labour, which received 
considerable attention in this House at the last 
Sessiono I d® not propose to discuss the matter in 
detail. There are others who can do so much better than 
I, but it is well to recall that the Progressive- 
Conservative Party promised to give the workers and 
the employora the fairest and the most advanced labour 
law possible. This is to be achieved by empowering 
an Ontario Labour Relations* Committee to outline a 


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219 - 2-22-45 

Mr. Jolliffe. 

plan based, on study of labour laws of other countries. 
This is with a view cf adopting comprehensive and 
enforceable collective-bargaining legislation. Now, the 
bona Prixne Ministar also said on the radio, in detail, 
how this would be dona, and in his more recent radio 
speech of December 12th the noa. Prime Minister toads 
the claim that Ontario has the fairest and most advanced 
laws governiog labour relations in the whole of Canada. 
Unfortuaatelyj the labourer does not agree, and we cannot 

I.n point of fact, nost of the representative 
organizations of Labour in recent months have expressed 
their strong dissatisfaction with the Order-in-Counoil 
1003 » a Dominion Order-in«Council, ~- which 13 part of 
the law of this province for a time, -» as a result of 
what was done by tnis Legislature at the last Session, 
So great waa the dissatisfaction of that Order expressed by 
the labourer, that the Saskatchewan Legislature, at its 
first Sessions did not hesitete to pass a new Trade Union 
Acto The Sasicatchewan Government terminated its agree- 
ment with the Dorainion Govornoient in respect to Ordsr-in- 
Council 1003 o 

I think that while the Prime Minister and Minister of Labour 
may xiot agree with the substance of the Saskatchewan Trade 
Union Act -- they nmy think it is unwise legislation — I 
think at least taau they raight agree that it is advanced 
legislation. It is the kind of legislation, I might say, 
which we do not expect fron the Progressive-Conservative 
administration, but it is the kind of legislation which is 
needed in order to assure the security of labour arid of the 


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- 220 - 2-"22-45 

Mr. Jolliffe 

workers of the post-war period o There is a well grounded 

fear a^-nong labour men to-day that the end of the war will 
mean a return by some employers, not all employers- but by 
some of them to their pre-war policy. There is a well 
grounded fear that when there is a surplus of labour 
rather than a shortage of labour and when wages are or can 
be driveu down instead of being raised, that some employers-- 
and perhaps many employers — ■ will band themselves together 
to withdraw the concessions which have been so hardly won by 
labour in recent years, and for that reason increasing 
emphasis is being placed by most labour organizations, and 
also by the G»CoF», upon the importance of union 
security provisions in union agreements* I know there 
are those who think they are bad in principle but I do not 
think that they clearly or fully understand the principle 
and the principle is a perfectly democratic one, viz., that 
when a group of people are associated together in a certain 
economic enterprise, there are certain matters with respect 
to which the interests of the majority must prevail" and 
that is the principle which is written into the union 
security clause of many union agreements and which enables 
a well organized union to give much better service to its 
members and much more efficient and effective service to 
its members and to enjoy ^ I must say, much more co-operative 
relationship with employers thaa would otherwise be 
possible. The union security provision becomes 

mandatory where a majority desire it under the Saskatchewan 
labour law. It would be a great thing for the Province of 

Ontario in my view, not only for labour but also for 
employers and for the general public. It would be a 
valuable and constructive step if v;9 had similar legislation 


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Mr. Jolliffe. 

here, but the ProgrerfslTe-Conservative party being what it is 
I am afraid that we cannot expect it. 

Then, tooc, & reference wae made in the Speech from the 
Throae to the question of administration under Order-in- 
Council 1003. Now, Mro Speaker, may I say I think the 

present Labour Relations Board of Ontario has done some good 
and useful work, that the Chairman and other members of 
that Board have dealt with a great many cases, sometimes 
in trying circumstances and. with a highly unsatisfactory 
piece of legislation to administer, and I think a great deal 
of credit is due to them for what they have been able to 
accomplisho It doss not follow that because they have 
doB© a pretty good job of adrainistering that Order in 
Ontario we should accept that Order for all time to oome 
and , frankly, I am amazed that we have no indication from 
the Speech from the Throae of what post-war labour legis- 
lation is piaaned for this province o Even if we want so 
far as to agree with the Government that the proper thing 
to do in war time was to adopt Tominion Government Order-in 
Council 1003, with a great many meatal reservations, and 
make it effective for ail industry in Ontario, even if 
we went so far as to agree with the Government about that, 
we would still be faced with the necessity of considering 
what is the best and most advaaced labour legislation for 
Ontario after the v/ar ends and after the Government are 
under no further obligattoa v/hatever to the Dominion 
Government in respect of labour legislation applying to 
war industries. Now, as a result of Dominion-Provincial 
conference it may be that we can achieve something of the 
nature of a national labour code, which would be a simple 
thing and which might help to remove some of the present 


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- 222 - 2-22-45 

Mr. Jolliffe^ 

causes of friction between various provinces but until 

that time come we are entitled to a declaration from the 

Governiaent of their post-war labour policy — if the Government 

is to be in office in the post-war period, which may be 

questionable , but is something at least that has to be 

considered as a possibility- that has to be avoided. I do 

not agree that it ought to oe avoided but for the purpose 

of the Jpeech from tne Throne and for the purpose of this 

debate it is tne duty of the Government to tell us what their 

plaiis are, if they have any plans — on their assumption 

they propose to stay in office indefinitely, unless, of course, 

it is their desire after eighteen months disillusionment to 

throw off the care of office. 

mr. Speaker, I now come to a point which grieves me 

and* others on this side of the House who admire the excellent 

iualities of the Provincial Treasurer. Point No. 6. of the 

m poiats was to pledgel to appoint as Minister of Mines a 

man who knows mining; to lighten the burden of taxation 

to repeal nuisance laws which hamper the activities of 

prospectors and geologists. And the Prime Minister in 

speaicing to this point in July iy42, went even further. He was 

most specific. He said: 

"The mining industry will be assisted in every way 
possible and placed under the direction of a Minister 
with practical knov/ledge of raining. The tax burden 
will be lightened and therer will be a more equitable 
distribution of the tax between the different taxing 
bodies. A larger share of the taxes will go to the 
provincial and municipal treasuries. All restrictive 
measures which deny prospectors and others the induce- 
ment to find and develop new mining properties will be 
repealed and every encouragement will be given to 
geologists and prospectors to discover new mineral area. 
iSvery practical measure possible will oe adopted to 
expand this great basic industry so that it may offer 
the widest opportunities for employment when our armed 
forces are demobolizedo" 

Now, there are some very specific commitments in that 

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Mr. Jolliffe. 

paragraph regarding Minister and taxation, fto. First, 
may I say of the Minister that he without doubt one of 
the Prime Minister's strongest oolleagues and it may well be 
that he has become an authority on mining. I don't know. 
Although I. have aever been aware of any great raining 
activity in the good old Town of Lindsay and vicinity. It 
may be tnat he does know mining. Let us give him the benefit 
of the doubt and assume it, but the real point is that as 
Provincial Treaaui'er he carries one of the heaviest 
portfolios in the administration. It may be that he can 
carry that and a dozen more-- I don't icnow-- but it does seem 
to me if iTiining is half as important as the Prime Minister 
represented it to be that it should not be responsibility 
of a iUiiister who holds an office as important as the office 
of Provincial Treasurer. And if we are told that the 
reason taxation cannot be lightened as much as it could be 
or should mS oeoause the Dominion has intervened, then it ia 
true that the same thing was in effect in 1943. The 
Dominion at that time was already exercising its taxing 
powers i:i the same way that it is to-day. 

Then we have had during the last 18 months an inquiry 
into the whole 3ub;)eot of mining by the Urquhart Committee. 
I have no doubt that much useful work: was done by the 
Co:iimitteSc I think its Report was tabled for honorable 
meriDers to-day and from what little I have previously seen 
of it I aia sure much of the work done was of very real 
value, whether we agree with the conclusions of the 
Coaimattae or not, but what I shall suggest to the House at 
the present time is that the mining industry in Ontario 
if it has a future- is going to need perhaps more planning 

. v.- 

Bji, i. 


224 - 2-iiii-45 

Mr. Jolliffe. 

and more methodical investigation than any other 
industry o All our experience, I suggest, goes to show 
that moaoply enterprise and stpct: market taining cannot 
meet the basic requirements of the raining industry in 

'i?hat are those re-iuirenients? In the first place 
there is a need for rigrous and aggressive and practical 
exploration* That need, I gather, is to be met 
through the Government policy by the encouragement of 
trained prospectors. Exploration under the present 
system has Dean inadequate. There is a need also for 
adequate capital to finance not only exploration but new 
development and all our experience goes to show that 
capital has been inado;^uate under the present . system to 
finance new mines of importance with the exception of 
gold mines, which can be financed more easily. As so 
we hare what I suggest is an unbalanced mining development 
in Ontario. We have a very important gold mining 
development^ which is the result of the fact that a small 
gold producer can be brought into production, if there is 
any hope there, for relatively little capital. »Ve have 
far less base metals development than ought to be in this 
Province because the capital required for base metal devel- 
opment is always much more substantial and the existing 
facilities for raising new money and for the investment of 
capital in Ontario by monopoly enterprise are Just inade- 
quate.. A'e have had, therefore, an unbalanced development 
which is the result of not only lack of planning but of the 
wasteful use of capital. Not only the wasteful use of 
capital but the neglect of the communities concerned and 
of the people who become involved i^ any mining development. 

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Mr. Jolllffa 

It is D.0 news to this House that xaany very serious social 

probleras in Northern Ontario have grown out of the hit and 
miss unplanned development in some of our mining areas. It 
is no secret, also, that notv/ithstanding all the precautions 
and restrictions laid down by law that human welfare and 
huaan safety has frequently oeen neglected in the raining 
industry It is not very long ago, ?.Ir. Speatcer, when no 
less than I believe 16 workers lost their lives in one 
accident at a mine in or near Tinuoins , Ontario. I trust 
that the investigation to be carried on in connection with 
that disaster will be thorough and that the Government will 
act on whatever information loay be discovered. 

There is another mystery, Mr- Speaker, concerning 
another of tiia iiS points, and that is point No .7. The 
Goveraraent was most definitely pledged to appoint a Forest 
Resources Commission to cancel improper timber contracts; and 
to push policies of conservation, reforestration and soil 
control extending to all parts of the province, and employing 
tons of thousands of men after the war. 

This legislature was asked to pass legislation 
authorising the appointment of a Forest Resources Commission. 
The A.nnounoemeD.t was made that many timber contracts had been 
cancelled or revised. We are assured from time to time by 
the Prime Minister that policies of conservation are being 
pushed and that new cutting, methods are being applied. But 
there is an air of mystery which concerns the whole business 
and I think the House is entitled to far more information than 
we aave yet received. One mystery is the Forest Resources 
Commission itself, 3o far I have not been able to 
discover any Forest Resources Cfctmaission, although it was 


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£26 - 2-SE-45 

Mr. Jolliffe 

authorised last session, and were assured it was a matter 
of the greatest importance that this great industry should be 
brought under a co-ordinated direction of a new coamission. 
I think; we were even told by the Prime klinister that the 
present Department of Lands and Forests was expected to 
wither away as many of its functions were to be taken over 
by the Forest Resources Commission. To the best of my 
belief there is no Forest Resources Commission end certainly 
on Deccir;ber 13th there was no such commission because the 
Priiijie Minister said the appointment is awaiting the completion 
of an inquiry now being conducted into the procedure which 
has been followed in awarding contracts and establishing 
cutting rightSo Ever since I have heard of the Prime Minister's 
political activities sometime ago I have heard of his 
inquiries into the Lands and forests and we are now 
learning another inquiry is proceeding into the procedure 
to be followed in awarding contracts and establishing 
cutting right So Apparently the administration of our 
forest resources is still with the Department of Lands and 
Forewts, subject to the Government's direction. At the 
last session we heard almoatnnothing about the activities, 
in anya of that Department although there was some important 
legislation If there is anything to oe said for the 
Department, if there are really any new steps being taken 
in connection with cutting methods or conservation, then by all 
means let us hea± about it from the Minister of Lands and 
Forests at this sessiouo It is a very important Depart- 
ment and the Minister should place what concrete steps 
are actually being taken to conserve forestry resources 
so that the future generations as well as our own may 
benefit and so that our forest crop may not be depleted as 

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it has been already to some extent and so that we may not 
find ourselves a few jrears henoe In the position whioh now 
confronts British Columbia, for example, where the fear 
is that suoh a wasteful use has been made in the forest 

resources that the income of the province will be very m.uoh 
1833 in lature years than it is in the past. 

Mto Soeaker, there are many throughout this Province 
who are deeply concefned for personal and other reasons with 
their housing accomodation, and point No 08. of tha 22 
points referi'ed to that very matter. 

Point No 080 was as follows^ 

•* To create an Ontario Housing Commission for 
"the purpose of wiping out slums, improving 
"home conditions i^ city, town and country 
"and providing post-war employment on a large 

It will take me some little time to deal with the 
matter, which is a very important one, Mr. Speaker, and it 
may, therefore, be as well at this time that I move 
the adjournment of the debate. 

Motion agreed to. 

aON. dEOIGS A.DRiJvv' (Prime Mnister) Mr. Speaker, 
I move the adjoarnment of the House. 

MR. A. A. McLEOD: (Bellwoods)s Will the hon. Prime 
Minister tell us when the debate will be rewumed? 

MR. DRS'.V-' I think perhaps the hon. leader of the 
Opposition (Mr. Jolliffe) can indicate to me whether he 
prefers to resume on Monday or Tuesday. 

MR. JOLLIFFE: I think possibly Monday, Mr. Speaker, 
would be preferable as far as I am concerned. I do not want 
to inconvenience any of the other speakers. I am quite 
prepared to continue on Monday or Tuesday. 


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UR. DSETiTs I do not want to let that pass, in 7l«w 
of an earlior remarlco I do not want the Impression left that 
I am. being uAfalr to the hon. leader of the oppoaltlon 
(Mr. JolllffeJ. 

MISS MACPHAILt Because you stole his time — - 

MR. DRBV/: If the hon. aieiaber will kindly stop for 
a moment; the hon. leader of the opposition (Mr. Jollife) 
explained last night that he would not finish to-day. That was 
discussed in front of the Speaker, and there was no impairments 
of his rights, and he understands that. If the hon. 
leader of the opposition (Mr. Jolliffe) would prefer Monday, 
^e will resume the debate on the Speech from the Throne on 
that day. 

MR. JOLLIFFEs On my part, I cannot allow that to pass> 
The hono Prime Minister and myself did have a very amicable 
conversation aoout the matter yesterday. I said nothing about 
not being able to finish to-day. What I did say was that I 
expected to be as long as I was last year in this debate, but 
I did not say I did not expect to get through to-day, although 
I had hoped I would, so that we could proceed with other 
Speakers in the debate o I v/ant to make that perfectly clear. 

While I have no serious obiecttion to Monday — - 

MR. DRff/Vs The hono leader of the opposition, (Mr . 
Jolliffe) said that he was going to Thorold tonight and wanted 
leave at five-thirty. I do not want the question raised that I 
had any thought of shortening the time of the leader of the 
opposition (Mr. Jolliffe). I am most anxious to co-operate 
with him in that regard, 

Iffi. JOLLIFFE: (Leader of Opposition): What has Just 
been said is perfectly correct. That I indicated that I would 
not finish to-day is not correct, and if there has iheen any 

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indication that we were to hear from the hon. Prime Minister 
(Mr. Drew) for three-quarters of an hour this afternoon — - 

MR, DRSiY: Now, do not exaggerate. 

MR. JOLLIFFS: However, I will proceed on Monday, 
if that is satisfactory. 

MR, DRS\(\r: Entirely so. 

Motion agreed' to and the House adjourned at 
6.31 of the clock p.m. 


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- 230 - 2-E3-45 


SPEAKER: Honourable William J. Stewart, C.B.E. 

Toronto. Ontario. 
February 23. 1945. 

The House met at three of the olock, p.m. 


MR. SPEAKER; Presenting petitions. 
Reading and receiving petitions. 
.Presenting reports by Committees. 
Introduction of bills. 

MR, QBOIGE BENNETT (Windsor-Sandwich) : Mr. Speaker, 
I move, seconded by Mr. Oennison, that leave be given to Intro- 
duoe a bill intituled, "An Act to amend the Kbinioipal Act,** and 
that the same be now read the first time. 

Motion agreed to and bill read the first time. 

HON. GE0R3E H. IXTNBAR (Minister of municipal Affairs): 
Would the hon. member be kind enough to explain? 

MR, BENNBTTt The purpose of the bill is to repeal 
clause "s" of subsection il) of section 53 of the Municipal 

The Clause provides for the prohibition of the right 
of citizens to hold and to be elected to municipal office, even 
thoxigh they are in debt to the amount in excess of three 
months' rent. 

The Act also provides that newspapers shall be pre- 
vented from indulging in any biased comment, editorially or 
otherwise, on election issues relative to parties, candidates 

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- 231 - 2-23-45 

or platforms, on the day of the election. 

MR. HERBEEIT CONNOR (Hamilton East ) s Mr. Speaker, I 
move, seconded by Mr. Thornberry, that leave be given to 
introduce a bill entituledj "Itn Act to amend the Public 
Utilities Act,** and that same be now read the first time. 

Motion agreed to and bill read the first time. 

MR. JOSEPH B. SALBBSRG (St. Andrew): Will the mover 
please explain the purpose of the bill? 

MR. CONNOR: Ma>. Speaker, the main purpose of the Act 
is to give the citizens of any municipality, if they so desire, 
the privilege of taking necessary action to ensure an adequate 
fuel supply in the v/inter, and an adequate supply of ice in the 
sumner . 

lAR, SPEAKER: Several hon. members have requested 
permission to speak before the Orders of the Day. I recognize 
the hon. Prime Minister. 

HON. GEORGE A. DREW (Prime Minister) Mr. Speaker, 

I think in view of the fact that I gave the Legislature certain 

information yesterday, and read and left with the Legislature 

a telegram I sent a week ago Wednesday to the Right Hon.Prime 

Minister of Canada, I May say that I have received a reply 

from the Clerk of the PriKy Council, which reads as follows: 

"I am directed by the Prime 
Minister to acknowledge the telegram 
which you addressed to him on February 
14th, suggesting that the premiers of 
all the provinces be invited to an 
immediate meeting in Ottawa, for a 
preliminary discussion of Dominion- 
Provincial co-operation. 

"The representations of your 
telegram were carefully considered 
by the cabinet, and, after consider- 
ation, it was agreed that the circum- 
stances were not such as to justify 
a departure from the decision announced 
by the Prime Minister in the House of 
Commons on August 14th, 1^44. 

"Yours sincerely, 

(Signed) A.D.P. Heeney." 

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- 232 - 2"E3-'45 

I have no comment to add to the self-explantory 


MR. oPEAXEB; I will recognize the hon. mem:ber for 

Prescott (Mr. Belanger). 

MR. ADRELIEN BELANSBH (Prescott); Mr. Speaker, you 
were kind enough to accept my notice that I wanted to speak 
this afternoon before the Orders of the Day. Contrary to 
custom, it is not upon any controversial matter, nor is it to 
correct anything that has appeared in any newspaper. 

However, iu order to give some legality to what I am 
going to say, I wish to base my remarks upon an article in the 
Ottawa Journal of February 16th last, the heading of an 
editorial thereof. May I say that I am a regular reader and 
admirer of the Ottawa Journal, but I must say that to give a 
prominent place, such as this, to an event which has taken 
place this week, indicates that that event must be of prime 
importance, and that is the reason., Jor ray expounding upon that 
article this afternoon. 

My remarks are also in line with the custom in this 
House, whereby on famous anniversaries, such as St. Patrick's 
Day and 3to David's Day, we take a few minutes to recall the 
importance of the event, to the representatives here assembled 
from the different parts of the province of Ontario. 

This week, throughout the province of Ontario, in the 
east, and especially in the north, and throughout other' 
provinces of Canada, even to the Arctis Circle, there has taken 
place a celebration recallirjg a very important event, most 
important for the province of Ontario, and that is, the entering 
into this province of a group of persons, who, in ray 
opinion, and a very humble opinion it is, indeed - have do^e 
more than any other organized group of persons to promote the 
welfare of the citizens of this province. 

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233 - 2-83-45 

Mr aBel anger o 

I refer to the arrival in "Bytovwi", on the 20th of 
February » 1845, of four young ladies, who came here to establish 
hospitals, orphanages, and schools to promote the education of 

And may I be allowed, Mro Speaker, to ask: you JtlSt 
to imagine what happened on that day, and the day preceding, the 
19th of February, 1845, on the Ottawa river, between two lines 
of pickets o 

There could be seen from eight o'clock in the morning 
at Montreal, until the end of the day, when they entered the 
province of Ontario, two sleighs in which were the four ladies, 
proceeding through the famous scenery claimed by Montebello, 
and extending right across the province of Ontario <> They had 
seen the sun going down, that same Western sun which had lighted 
the plains for Champlain, and his companion Explorers, the 
first missionaries to come up the Ottawa and along the Nipissing 
to the shores of Georgian Bay^ whore they shed their blood 
for the promotion of civilization and Christianity <, 

And these four memorable, women reached Ottawa the next 
day, February 20th, 1845, at about four o'clock in the afternoon, 
and there they were net by about seventy- seven vehicles ^ com- 
prising the notable citizens of "Bytown", irrespective of 
religion, of creed, of nationality or of language s, and the gay 
procession proceeded into the city., 

From these four women has the strorig order been 
formed which comprises to-day over fifteen hundred 
persons o And a few days ago, and yesterday in this 
House, we have cheered and acclaimed heroes of the 

Now, what I am proposing is that we extend greetings 
to-day, the greetings of this House, to our heroines of peace. 


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- 234 - 2-33-45 


I say "heroines" and well may I say that. Hardly two 
years after they had arrived at Bytown when these four 
young ladies, to whota had Joined some fifteen others, had 
to take care of victims of that awful plague, and alone they 
took care of them, twenty-one nuns took care, in eleven 
months of five hundred and seventy-eight patients. 
They could not get help, because fifteen of them had been 
stricken down by the plague, and people were so much afraid 
to get near them that these delicate women had themselves 
to load on to the trucks and all kinds of vehicles the 
coffins of the victims that were being laid to their last 
rest. They have dotted the province of Ontario with 
hospitals, old mens' homes, convalescing homes, homes for the 
incurables, orphanages, and when it would have been impossible 
in certain sections of this province to sedire teachers' for 
the want of proper resources, these ladies took hold of the 
schools, and from their humble beginning they are now giving 
not only elementary education in hundreds of schools in this 
province, but even secondary education and even university 
education to the degree of BoA. But, I will go further than 
that » these sisters have brought the name to the Province of 
Ontario and let that be my Justification to using the time 
of this House, for they have brought the name of the 
Province of Ontario to the very extreme limits of the Dominion 
of Canada, to the far reaches of the Mackenzie and the 
Saskatchewan and the Assiniboia and in the Arctic Circle, to the 
head of the Yukon river to the oanks of James Bay, and, more 
than that, they have brought the name of Ontario, and have had 
the name of Ontario placed in the United States across 
the line, and, more than that, even across the seas in South 
Africa, in Basutoland, and as soon as the war is over in Middle 

- 2 36 - 2-23-45 

Bin. Belanger 

Africa they will there bring the light of civilization and 
Christianity, and receive for the proinvce of Ontario 
the thanks of those people whom they are going to nurse 
and whom they are educating at .the present time. 

Mr. Speaker, I thought it 7/as not amiss that I 
should, on such an occasion, draw the attention of this 
House these heroines of peace, pictures of these Doves 
of Peace, of these messengers of civilization and these 
angels of mercy. I am speaking of the Order of the 
Grey Huns of the Cross of Ottawa. 

MR . SPEAKER : The hon. member for Bellwoods {Uc , 
MacLeod) wishes to move the adjournment of the House. 
The House now adjourns for the purpose of discussing 
a matter of urgent public importance. 

MR. A. A, MacLEOD. (Bellwoods): Mr. Speaker, I 

move, seconded by Mr, Salsberg» that the House be now 

adjourned for the purpose of discussing a matter of 

urgent public importance. I do it for this reason; 

several days ago I addressed a q,uestion to the hon. 

Prime Ivlinister; asking for a clarification of a statement 

contained in his province-wide radio address of August 9th 

last, respecting the Dominion Family Allowances' Act. On 

that occasion the hon. .Prime Minister said, and I quote: 

"I assure you that tjhe Goverrmient of 
■ Ontario intends to do everything within its 
power to make sure thatirthis iniquitous Bill 
does not go into effect.'' 

Now, in addressing my question to the hon. Prime 

Minister, earlier in the week, I asked whether those 

words that I have Just quoted still stated the considered 

policy of this Government, and, if so, what steps fias the 

Government taken, or what steps does it contemplate taking 


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- 236 - 2-22-45 

I/a? ♦MacLeod 

to prevent the Family Allowances' Aot from becoming 
operative in this province. 

Thirdly, will the Government, at the Session ask the 
Legislature to concur in the cotirse of action it has 
taken, or propose to take, in the matter? ^ 

Now, Mr. Speaker, it will be recalled the hon. 
Prime Minister side-stepped my (iuestion by stating he 
would deal with the matter on the appropriate occasion. 
Well, yesterday afternoon the appropriate occasion 
arrived, and the hon. Prime Minister rose before the 
Orders of the Day were called, and proceeded to make a 
lengthy speech on the attitude of his Government to 
the Family Allowances' Act. Like the other hon.members, 
I listened very attentively to the hon. Prime 
Minister's remarks, and I am forced now to say that it 
shed not a ray of light on the question I had addressed 
to him earlier in the week. In fact, Mr. Speaker, 
after the hon. Prime Minister had finished, I recalled a 
story told some years ago by a famous American clergyman, 
who, after delivering what he thought to be a weighty . 
sermon, overheard one of his parishioners remark, "That 
man can dive dov/n deeper, and stay down longer, and 
oome up drier than anyone I ever heard." 
And that, Mr. Speaker, in my judgment, is a very good 
description of what we listened to yesterday afternoon. 

Now what are the "bare bones" of the case, if I 
may use that term? 

The Family Allowances' Act was passea unanimously 
by the Dominion Parliament last summer, and it has re- 
ceived the Royal Assent, and is the law of Canada, and 
benefits xmder that Act are to become payable in July of 



aGi) iiix;ow 





aiJ A j.c^'ii f>j 

- £37 - a-23-45 

Mr .MacLeod 

this year. Those who are to receive those benefits 

nnist register in Just a few weeks' time. Hundreds of 

thousands of Ontario families are eligible for those 

benefits, which run into millions of dollars, and yet 

Mr. Speaker, as far as this Legislature knows at the moment 

this Government is committed to a policy of doing evry thing 

in its power to prevent this legislature from becoming 

operative in Ontario. I have made two attempts to have the 

matter cleared up "oijiBe and for all", to use the hon. Prime 

Minister's expression, - to clear up once and for all this 

whole controversy by a clear-cut statement from the hon* 

Prime Minister. He refused to answer, and by refusing, in 

my .tudgment, he is treating this Parliament with contempt, 

because the hon. Prime Minister had no mandate from this 

Parliament to make the speech that he made on August 9th. This 

Legislature has never consulted us as to the contents of 

that speech, and all we have to go on, at the moment, are 

his ovm words, used in his speech of August 9th last. They 

are on the records, and the hon. Prime Minister must accept 

the responsibility for them. 

Now, Mr. Speaker, I got the impression, or, at least, 

I got the impression yesterday afternoon that the hon. 

Prime Minister is not very happy in his predicament now, 

but I want to say to him, bearing in mind that famous speech, 

and I quote the lines of a great poem: 

"The moving finger writes, and having writ, 
moves on, nor all your piety nor wit shall 
lure it back to aancel half a line, nor all 
your te,ars wash out a word of it." 

Now, some "of us listened to the hon. irime 

Minister last night paint a very vivid pictxire of the 

effect of the buzz bdmbs on the City of London, and with his 

- 238 - 2-23-45 

Mr .MacLeod 

aptness for fine phrasing ^ he described the dull and 
terrifying silence when a buzz bomb lands and the 
people are waiting for the explosion. That is Just 
about the position we are in. He let loose a buzz bomb 
on the 9th of August on hundreds of thousands of 
people in this province, and they are to-day waiting 
for the explosion. 

Now, Mr. Speaker, if the hon. Prime Minister 
persists in his refusal to give a statement that we are 
requesting, if he persists in being a riddle wrapped in 
mystery inside an enigma, ttwin I say, so far as I am 
concerned, I shall have no other alternative than to 
move a resolution for the consideration of this Legisla- 
ture condemming the Government's policy as out'--- 
lined in the hon. Prime Minister's speech of August 9th. 

I^m. J.B, SALSBERG (St. Andrew): Mr. Speaker, I 
believe that the hon. member for Bellwoods (iJir.IwacLeod) 
has quite properly placed before this House this matter, 
which is of great urgency, and 1 think that it is true 
for many'members of the House, as it is for myself, that 
we would be failing our constituents if we were not to 
do jaarpry thing in our power to clarify the situation with- 
out delay. I come from a constituency that is thickly 
populated, and mainly a working-class constituency. I 
know that the thousands of families there, as elsewhere, 
are looking forward to the implementing of the Family 
Allowances* Legislation adopted by the House of Commons 
at Ottawa in July. I know that they are disttirbed and 
seriously concerned over the possibility that by some Act 
of this Government these allowances would perhaps fail to 
be forthcoming, and I think, because of that, we should 

- 239 - S-23-45 

lift'o Salsberg. 

have the Government made known its position, so as to 
enable the hon. members in the Plouse to take the 
appropriate action in the House in accordance with the 
definite policies of the Government. But, up until now, 
as the hon. member for Bellwoods (Mr. MacLeod), the House 
leader of my party, has so ably stated, all that we and 
the people of the provinces have to go by is the 
declaration, which was a very definite warning, in the 
announcement of the indication to prevent the implementa- 
tion of the Act insofar as the province is concernedo 
And, in view of the limited time left between now and 
then, we cannot lose any opportunity, at any time, in 
our endeavour to stop such torpedoiDg action on the part 
of the Government. The problem is important, also, from 
a national point of viewc I might say that I think it was 
pointed out in this House yesterday that the spokesman for 
the present Goveimment and the hon. Prime Minister himself 
had attempted to create the impression that they are not 
opposed to the Family Allowances , and which they acknowl- 
edge as a worthwhile social legislation, iin hon. member 
said "Of course not." But that hon. member, nor no one 
else on the Treasury Benches, made known the intention of 
introducing such Legislation when they offered what they 
considered was an excellent programme for the people of 
this province, asking them for their vote, and that is true 
for the hon. member for Sto Patrick (Mr. Roberts), as well 
as everyone else. 

MR. A. KSLSO ROBERTS (St. Patrick): I want to 
answey — 

im, SPEAKER: Out of order. 

- £40 - 2-23-45 


MR. ROBERTS: I want to answer the hon. i-neraber on 
that point. 

MR. SPKAKER: Do you rise on a po^nt of order? 

MR. ROBERTS: I think I should reply. 

Mi. SPEAKjiR; No, you are out of order. 

MR. SiLSBERG: They felt they were Justified in 
having failed to include this worthwhile piece of legis- 
lation in their list of promises, aa they did not consider 
it worthwhile, or were too improgressive to use an indicative 
expression for the positive thing, - I mean, to advocate 

Now, knov;ing that it is national in scope, it whould 
be, as every important piece of social legislation should 
be national in scope, applicable throughout the Dominion, 
without exception to the provinces that are not as 
fortunate as Ontario or i^uebec might be, such as New 
Brunswick and others not bordering on Ontario. When this 
comes up we are confronted, Mr. Speaker, and hon. members, 
with the usual blocking tactics that have been coupled 
in the past by reactionary interest in the country to 
prevent progressive legislation from being enacted. It is, 
however, always the provincial rights or the federal rights 
that are used as a means of blocking advanced legislation 
in the province . 

Now, we witnessed this very startling phenomena 
where, from a different point of view, ostensibly, we have 
an encircling attack upon this basic piece of social 
legislation, and behind the cry of provincial rights we have 
the opposition la Ontkrio coming from the Drew Government, 
and the opposition in ^uebec from the Duplessis Government. 
I think the hon. members of this House owe it to their 

- 241 - 2-23-45 

BICr. Sals berg 

constituents that we should make sitr® we will not permit 
the formation of a double "'D" axis in this province to 
scuttle this or aay other legislation. So that there will 
be" no doubt, I mean by the double "D" axis the Duplessis- 
Drew axis, I call it thr double "D" axis to save the time 
of the House. We must not allow the false cry of -the 
provincial rights to be utilized in the blocking of this 
legislation, and I believe, therefore, that the province 
should clarify the issue, and make s\xre that no surprise 
act will be staged or pulled by this Gpvernment to prevent 
the payment of family allowances » which is so essential 
for the majority of the families » the working-class 
families, farm families » ia this province and any other 
province, from coming into effect, or that we shall do 
anything or permit anything to be done that will rob the 
children of New Brunswick and British Columbia, or 
other less fortunate provinces, from enjoying the 
benefits coming to them beginning July 1st next. 

MR. A. KELSO ROBERTS (St .Patrick) : I rise to a 
point of pi*ivilege. The hon. member for St. Andrew, ia 
the covirse of his address, made remarks which I think 
were directed to me . I wish to make it (iuite clear, at 
ao time, either since I have been elected here or prior 
thereto, have I personally made any statement against the 
principles of family allowances. I wish that to be clear- 
ly understood by the hon. member who made the statement. 

MR. WILLIAM DENNISON (St. David): Mr. Speaker, 
this whole question of family allowances is part of the 
problem of social service for all the people, and I, too, 
was disturbed when the hon. Prime Minister announced Chat 
the Government would obstruct it in every way. I am sure 

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- 242 - 2-23-45 

Lt. Sals berg 

aayone who has had experience with welfare through 
those depression years knows that the people of this 
province have suffered a good deal from the hard- 
hearted rulings made from this Legislature in respect to 
relief allowances, and that goes for the hoa. members 
both of the previous government and of the present 
government. \7e know the scale of relief allowances that 
were in effect in Ontario prior to 1927, the scale of 
relief allowances drav/n up known as the Campbell Report, and 
the scale of relief allowances that expected people to live 
on three cents a meal, a family of four people or a total 
lor each individual of twelve cents a day, a scale of 
relief allowancesthat were a disgrace to any civilized 

\7e know, further, that this opposition that design- 
ed the relief allowances and designed the welfare allow- 
ances did not start with the preseiit Government, despite 
the fact that some people would lik6 to nov; give the 
impression that they did. It is just a few years ago since 
a small little district, namely, Lakeview, just west 
of this city, had two hundred heads of families on relief, 
and of those two hxmdred heads of families one hundred and 
twenty-five were working out their relief allowances, and 
had been receiving the meagre scale of relief allowances 
I have just referred to, namely, three cents a meal per 
person. These p«opla were dissatisfied witb $hat, but to 
their amazement on the 15th of April of that year the 
Government Department here reduced their allowance twenty- 
five per cent. They had been receiving twenty-five per cent 
above the Campbell ..eport on the 15th of April, and that allow- 

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- 243 - 2-23-45 

Mr. I/ennison 

ance was reduced down to the Campbell report, and they 
made up a deputation, and interviewed the Prime 
l-Iiniater, demanding that the relie'i allowances be 
raised, amd these poor people, who had been starved for 
years, who had been promised work aad wages by the then 
Prime IHni^ter if they Y;ould support him at election 
time, these i>oor people were invited intts the Prime 
Minister's office. But, there were police hiding just 
around the doors of the office at that time , the Hepburn 
Eussars, and at a signal from the Prime Minister that 
day these people were all arrested tor demanding they 
be raised to twenty-five per cent above that Campbell 
Report of that day, A leaflet i issued with 
the name of Mr, Arthur Roebuck on the front page, 
published by the Lakeview strikers themselves, told 
us the actions of the Prime Minister oC that day. 

He left an order then that tlioa« who essayed 
to speak, be silent. Ke browbeat eve» the little children, 
whom he harshly addressed. Iventually, in his hysterical 
turbulence he ordered the police to arrest three members 
of the delegation. 

Now, that ig; not the first tiae people of this 
province have been askei to lire and exist on allowances 
that were not adequate. 

I was through thia struggle on the local counoil 
over many years, where Liberals, as well as Conservatives, 
voted time and time again against s«-cting up a socitd 
service committee to study the whole ciuestrion of social 
security. And I have not forgot ttfji that as recently as 
1942, the City of Toronto was treating the bears down in the 
Zoo better than they were taraating the people on relief. 



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- 244 - 2-23-45 

Mr. Dennis on 

I will give you the ejtatt allowance. 

It was estimated that one reliefee got $2.16 worth 
of food for a week, while one bear at the zoo got ^4.03 worth 
of food, for a week. 

One adult and one child got $3.47 a week, while a 
zebra got |4.37 worth of food a week. I do not know whether 
it was a Tory zebra, but it was one of those animals with 
stripes on. I do not know whether there is any significance 
to that at all. 

Two adults and three children got 17.47 per week, 
and a family of five lions got |20.40 a week for food. 

The people of this province have long waited, just 
as they have long waited for maECh&rs' allowaace; Just as 
they have long waited for pensions for aged people -- they 
have long waited for better social service, and it was regrett- 
able that there should be any suggestion from this province, — 
the province that in all other respects has led the way in 
social service -- should do anything to abstruct social 
service . 

I, too, was very sorry and ashamed that any suggestion 
should have been made, and I, therefore, support the motion. 

MR. M.F. HEPBURN (Elgin): Mr. Speaker, it was not 
my intention to participate in this debate, but I hare been 
brought into it by the hon. member for St. David (Mr.Dennison. 

It is true I was the premier of this province during 
the dark days of relief, but may I say that we in Ontario, from 
1934, paid the highest relief on the whq3|)B of the North 
American continent, with the exception of the city of Newark, 
where their schedule was comparable to ours. 

I understood him to mention the arrest of some of a 
delegation. It is true, we did arrest two men, who were 

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- 245 - 2-23-45 

Mr. Dennlsoft 

obviously fakes, a»d who appeared before us askimg for 
imcreased relief allowance, but we had good reason to 
arrest them. 0«e of those me« had stolen money, as an 
employee of the Farm Land Board. Another man was an 
equal faker, because he was on the relief list of 
British Columbia and Ontario as well. I think we did the 
proper thing to put these men in their place. I hope the 
hon. member for 3t. David (Mr. Dennison) does not condone such 
actions on the part of the people for whom he has expressed 
sympathy ia his vote-catching efforts. 

Howeyer, I am not concerned with anything, as far 
as the hon. member for 3t. David (Mr. Dennison) is concerned, 
but I want to deal now that I am on my feet with the motion 
properly before this House. 

I am rather surprised that the hon. Prime Minister 
did not see fit to give a reply to the question which the 
hon. member for Bellwoods (Mr. MacLeod) so courteously asked. 
But we understand he is in the corner; no question about that, 
I can tell by the expression on his face, and I will say that 
if he does say anything, we will take it quite seriously, quite 
amlike the expression he used as far as I was concerned the 
other day. I still have that rankling in my bosom. 

In 1937, we were both provincial candidates; I in 
my own riding, where I was born and raised, and he in his own 
riding where he was born and raised, in South Wellington, and 
I think I had a majority of some 5,300 votes, -- a lot of 
people took me seriously -- and in the riding where they knew 
the hon. Prime Minister best, they gave him a darn good "trim- 
ming." He lost by, I think, 4,000 votes; we will let that 

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- 246 - 2-23-45 

Mr. Hepburn (Elgin) 

HON. GEORGE A. DREW (Prime Minister): Those 
figures are pretty close for you. 

-MR. HEPB'TiN (Blgift): Well, consider the election 
of 1937, at which time I had the honour of leading the Liberal 
party. Eight hundred thousand people in the province took 
me seriously, but ia the election v^ere you came bacic with a 
"rump" government, you polled about 300,000 votes, so 500,000 
voters tooic me more seriously when I led the Liberal party, 
than you in the last election when you were elected to youp 
present position. 

Now, obviously the hon. Prime Minister is most 
anxious to dodge the main issue. What he is trying to do — 
and we might as well strip the facts oare -- is to stir up a 
national disunity, to stir up a devil's brew in Ontario, and 
I will quote his own words, and this pampfuiet ia published 
with the authority of the Progressive Conservative Headquarters, 
Richmond 3treet , Toronto, a pamphlet entitled "Where Canada 
Stands," and right on the front page we see the picture of 
"Gorgeous George" -- nothing could be more attractive than 
that. What does he say? "Many millions of dollars in 
the poclcets of the people of Ontario will go to the people of 
the province of Q,uebec under this measure." 

He does not deny saying that. Then he follows 

that up by saying this: 

"But I assure you that the 
Government of Ontario intends to do 
everything within its power to make sure 
that this iniquitous bill does not go 
into effect. It is not this bill alone, 
but the whole principle involved which 
we intend to resist." 

I mentioned this yesterday because it is not very 
often I read Tory propaganda. I do not get much enlighten- 
ment clearly on another page, where he says: 


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- 247 - £-23-45 

Mr. Hepburn fSlgin) 

Ife have before us the problem 
of rebuilding Confederation and in doing 
3o must decide whether this is going to 
be a country where equality of advantage 
and obligation go hand in hand." 

Tkat is the issue. He says "That is the issue 
which cannot be separated from any discussion of those 
measures which confer special advantages upon the province 
of .^luebeo . * 

I think that is clear enough. Then he goes on to 

I know that there has been much 
hesitation about saying these things. But 
I know that everyone is talking about these 
things. It will De far better for the 
people of Quebec, as it will for the rest 
of Canada, if this issue is brought 
clearly and frankly into the open. No 
other issue in this country to-day is of 
comparable importance." 

That is the issue, and he is trying to stir up 
disunity between the two provinces, predicated upon his 
assertion that Quebec will benefit under this scheme of 
family allowance. 

Incidentally, as I said yesterday, I am not a 
lawyer, for which I am truly thankful, but I have had com- 
petent legal advice in regard to this measure, and I am 
advised that the Dominion Government has the right to vote 
any sum of money, and to pay that money to any person it 
pleased at any time, so we are powerless to stop the 
Dominion government from paying this money, irrewpective of 
ainy statement by the hon. Prime Minister. 

His statement was predicated upon the assertion 
that Quebec will benefit by these allowances. I went out of 
my way again to get facts and figures, and I find that the 
province of t^nebec will pay 34.5 per cent of the cost of the 
family allowances and the province of 0.uebec will receive 
32 per cent of the advantage. So I say his effort to stir 


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- 248 - 2-E3-45 

Mr .Hepburn f Elgin) 

up disunity on this issue has aborted completely, and T do 
not admire the hon. Prime Afinister for cloaking himself 
with a maslc of silence. I think the hon. member for Bell- 
woods (Mr. MacLeod) is entitled to receive a courteous reply 
to the question which he so properly directed to the hon. 
Prime Minister of this province. 

MR, DMNISON: I rise on a question of privilege -- 

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for St. David (Mr. 
Dennison) has spoken once* 

MR. EDWARD B. JOLLIFFE (Leader of the Opposition): 
A question of privilege should be taken up immediately. 

MR. SPEAKER: Two hon. members got up at almost the 
same instant. I acknowledged the meiaDer for 3outh Wellington 
(Mr. Hancock), and the hon. member for 3y. i^avid (Mr. Dennison) 
has spoken once. 

MR. CA3SBLMAN: I have been reading this "Red Book" 
furnished to us by the Clerk of the House, and I understand a 
question of privilege takes precedence over ejrerything else. 
Will you kindly give us a reply, Mr. Speaker? 

MR. HKPBURN (Elgin): You are right. 

MR. SPEAKER: I kept the Red Book closed to-day 
and tried to be rather generous in my rulings. T acknowledge 
that a question of privilege should iminediately be heard, but 
I had acknowledged the hon. member for South Wellington. 
However, if the hon. member for St. David (Mr. Dqfnnison) 
wishes to raise a question of privilege, go ahead. 

MR. DENNISON: The hon. member for Elgin (Mr. Hepburn) 
asked me if I intimated that I would not be prepared to arrest 
a man who merited arrest, I believe any man who merits arrest 
for breaking the laws of this province should be arrested, but 
there are places for arrest -- 

MR. NIXON: That is not privilege. 

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- 249 - 2-S3-45 

Mr. Hepburn (Elgin) 

MR. D2NNIS0N: The hoa. Priiae Minister should not 
take the law into his own hands, to browbeat the unemployed. 

I^m. LESLIE HANCOCK (iVelliagton oouth): Mr. Speaker 
yesterday I sought to rise to ask the hon. Prime Minister a 
question, but since you ruled that the issue was not 
debatable, I refrained, but to-day apparently I have that 

The hon. Prime Minister made a statement to the 
effect that the Family Allowance Act would cause the 
divtilgenoe of harrowirig details, and that family pride would 
be violated-- 

HON. GE0SG3 A. DREff (Prime Minister): Mr. Speaker, 
I must correct an inaccurate statement. What I said was that 
the method that had been announced the night previous would 
produce that result, not the Act. 

MR. HANCOCK: I would like to ask the hon. Prime 
Minister whether he suggests that there is no family pride 
violated or harrowing details divulged by a family under the 
present Social Service Act of this province? I know that is 
a fact, that a number of people who have needed social ser- 
vices in my riding have had to give details which caused them 
much pain. I listened with amazement, and heard the hon. 
Prime Minister suggest that only in the case of the Dominion 
Family Allowance Act does this obtain. 

The Government has no monopoly, Mr. Speaker, upon 
receiving no replies to their letters addressed to Ottawa, 
any more than they have any monopoly in the same field. 

I wrote to the hon. Minister of Welfare (Mr. Vivian) 
a letter suggesting immediate action in the case of workmen's 
compensation. I did receive a letter, but no acknowledge- 
men of this suggestion. I might read the letter, Just to 


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Mr. Hancock. 

show you. TUis is regarding a case in Guelph, a 

silicosis case, regarding one Arthur Melancon, of 

Guelph, Ontario, where he had been receiving the noble 

sum of $7.79 per week. The letter says: 

"Dear 3ir, 

"This is an appeal to you on 
behalf of the above, and all similar cases 
of disability. Arthur Melanson was a 
moulder in the service of Taylor Forbes 
& Co. at Guelph for over twenty years. 
As I saw him recently he is a very sick 
man, suffering from silicosis and heart 
trouble, rendering him almost a complete 
disability case. I have interviewed the 
officer looking after silicosis cases at 
the Workcaen's Compensation Board, Canada 
Life Building, Toronto, and find that 
since the doctors have allowed him AOt - 
50^ silicosis disability, he is receiving 
all they can legally pay him according to 
the Act, namely 45^ of two-thirds of an 
average week's earnings of $25.97, which 
comes to $7.79 per week. I have not 
checked back with Mr. Melancon and the 
Taylor Forbes Co. as to the accuracy of 
the f25.9 7 weekly average wage, but it 
is my understanding the Workmen's Com- 
pensation Board prides itself in being 
ahead of the other social services. If 
this is the case I woald not care to say 
what I think of the other social services. 
You know how far $7.79 a week will carry 
a man, wife and dependent daughter or 
daughters these days with a home to keep 
up. Some families I know spent nearly 
that much on an over- size Christmas 
turkey . 

"Since the Act is presumably com- 
plied withain this man's case, only two 
other alternatives suggest themselves to 
me. First, that legislation be introduced 
removing the two-thirds clause from the 
Workmen's Compensation Act, and that com- 
pensation be made on the basis of per- 
centage disability of full wages, which 
would still only give this family fll.68 
weekly. Secondly, I suggest the better 
plan of amalgamating all social services 
and evaluating disability needs on the 
spot. After a fair award is made under 
the second plan, the cost would be allocated 
to the responsible bodies. In Mr. Melancon 's 
case, since he is an industrial casualty, 
the (Workmen's Compensation Board would 
continue to pay their share. To cover 
his heart disability which may or may not . 
be due to silicosis, the municipality and 

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- 251 - 2-23-45 
Mr. Hancock. 

"province would pay the balance necessary to 
bring the family income up to a humanitarian 

"^vlay I urge yoar sponsorship of one 
or other of these plans? 

"Sincerely yours," 

To date, Mr. Speaker, I have had no reaction 
from that suggestion. The hon. Prime Minister did say yester- 
day something to the effect that all social services need 
overhauling, and for that reason he was suggesting holding 
up the Family Allowance Act. 

Now that I am on my feet, I would like to say that 
in common with other hon. members of this House I have re- 
ceived two bulletins, one called "Baby Bonus", and the other 
"Revenge of the Cradle". I am presumably supposed to be- 
lieve that the author of these bulletins very kindly mailed 
them to me free of charge, as well as having them printed. 
No party's name appears on these pamphlets; no party dare put 
its name on such a pamphlet, even though they abvioualy are 
in line with the present Government's policy in regard to 
family iallowances . 

Just to suggest the kind of thing that appears in 
these pamphlets, here is oue "Let the Anglo-Canadian go 
and get killed or incapacitated, while we stay at home and 
get good wages and breed." It goes on: "As one Canadian 
puts it, 'they breed while we bleed/.^** 


MR. HANCOCK: If this kind of propaganda is going 
around Ontario — well, it is strange we should receive it. 
I am surprised that we of the Opposition should receive such 
a pamphlet; nevertheless, I say here and now that if this 


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- 25£ - 2-23-45 

Mr. Hancock 

Is the kind of thing that is going around this province 
it Just shows up the reactionary people in this province. 

I see there is a pamphlet headed "Revenge on the 
Cradle," and another "Baby Bonuses," and there is still 
another one which I Jaswe not yet received, "Must Canada Split." 

Mr. Speaker, I ask this House if Canada tnust split, 
who is doing the splitting? 

MR. L. GREIVK ROBINSON (Waterloo South): Mr. 
Speaker, I would like to say at the outset with respect to 
family allowances that as far as my party is concerned we 
have been for them consistently for a long period of time. 
Not only family allowancew, but family allowances as a part 
of a comprehensive scheme for adequate social services, and 
for the adequate well-being of the population of this pro- 
vince, and of this Dominion. 

For example, it is necessary that provision be 
made for family allowances, that wages be not depressed to 
the extent of these feuaily Allowances. I wish to say that 
from my information, the hon. member for 31gin (Mr. ■epburn) 
when this scheme of family allowances was first proposed by 
the federal government, was rather critical of it, and I wish 
to compliment him on his evident change of heart with respect 
to that policy. 

I would like to deal with one argument of the hon. 
Priae i^inister, mentioned im his radio address last August 
9th, in which he objected to the family allowances, where 
he said: "It is not this bill alone, but the whole prin- 
ciple involved, which we intend to resist." He said: 
"If our money is to be used in a tax scheme, then it is to 
be used for total war." 

Now, I wish to say, Mr. Speaker, that surely, as 


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-263 -» 2-23-45 

Mr. Robinson 

great as the war effort of Canada is, and has been acknowledged 
to be — surely the question of war morale is of high im- 
portance in order that the last ounce of war effort be obtained, 
and I ask y^u if, on a dominion-wide basis, those who 
fight, and who are making the sacrifices of fighting, knew 
that what they were fighting for was probably an actual 
fact, would that not assist, and heighten their already 
heroic efforts, and is not that, in essence, a part of the 
total war which the hon. Prime Minister mentioned in his 
radio address? 

Further, in his address, he pointed out, Mr. Speaker, 
this other thing; that the money which would be raised from 
Ontario could be better spent in the province of Ontario, and 
at the same time.s&veral paragraphs later, he enunciates the 
principle of Ontario sharing with the rest of the provinces 
of this Dominion. 

Now, what does he mean? Does he mean one or the 
other? I insist he cannot have both. 

The attitude of my party has always been that in 
matters of this kind, involving great sums of money, they 
can be better provided for by the Dominion, which has control 
over the finances, and better arrangements can be made for 
the sharing of our Commonwealth co>muon moneys by all in 
this Canada of ouss. 

There is one final point, Mr. Speaker, which I 
should like to bring to the attention of the House, and that 
is to point out the assumption by the hon. Prime Minister, 
when he says that our attitude toward any measure which takes 
money from the pockets of the people ibf Ontario for the 
special advantage of the province of (Quebec , is based upon 

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- 254 - 2-23-45 

Mr. Robinson 

considerations which affect that province alojne. 

Aside from any inference, the fact of the financial 
position, as I understand it, is that the people of the 
province of Quebec will give in taxation almost as much — 
within a fraction of one per cent -- as they will receive 
back in terms of family allowances. Therefore, if we do 
share our money here in Ontario, it will go where, in my 
opinion, it is much needed, and that is, to the depressed 
western areas, and in the maritimes. 

MR. BERTRAM E. LEA.VBN3 (Woodbine)? Mr. Speaker, 
to say the least, I have been extremely amazed at the 
attitude taken by the hon. Prime Minister of Ontario with 
regard to the whole question of family allowances. His 
speech of August 9th last year took issue with the federal 
administration usurping provincial rights, but that is the 
same old "red herring" used on every piece of social 
legislation between the province and the federal govern- 
ment, as far back as I cari remember. 

The hon. member for Slgin (Mr. Hepburn) used this 
as a protection, while he was in office, to prevent the 
people in Ontario having necessary social legislation, because 
he claimed there was federal interference in the matter of 
provincial Jurisdiction. 

This is the old "red herring" and I am surprised at 
the hon. Prime Minister of Ontario, particularly at this 
time, giving utterance to such sentiments as he gave utterance 
to on the radio on August 9th of last year. 

I think the question of family allowances, and 
its application in the legislation in this country, is long 
overdue. I know here that the hon. Prime Minister has stated 
if we have to pay this money, there are several ways we can 




'•&-'■: ->ri* :f X&VO 

- 255 - 2-E3-45 

Mr. t^earens 

pay it. We can pay it this way: for family allowances, by 
running our own family allowance agreement as a provincial 
measure I independent of the federal administration. 

It is high time that this isolation attitude taken 
by the hon. Prime Minister of Ontario and others was done 
away with* After all, we are a nation, and surely having 
undergone the blood bath we are undergoing now, in the 
interets of a fiee democracy, surely it ill behooves any 
Prime Minister of this country or any other country, to break 
the ties of national unity on a question of such importance 
as this, the qiuestion of family allowances. 

I am very much shocked to hear Hon. Mr. Drew change 
the tdrm of this Act to "Baby Bonus." I can understand, 
perhaps, that we may have a difference of opinion regarding 
the family allowance, but te( besmirch it with the name of 
"baby bonus" is an insult to the intelligence of every mother, 
from the Atlantic to the Pacific. 

There are some thing which are still saored in 
this country, and every other country. The family is a sacred 
institution. The health and welfare of th^ family should be 
the primary consideration of all gpvernmenta. The welfare of 
our children, and their health and their future, should, in my 
opinion, be the first charge against all the wealth of this 
or any other country, and the hon. Prime Minister (Mr. Drew) 
has been guilty of playing the vilest kind of politics with 
one of the most sacred things which come under our^ob3ervation 
in the Dominion of Canada. 

I think the time has come for the hon. Prime Minister 
of this province to, in the interests of this Ho^i^e, in the 
interests of this province, and in the interests of the 
Dominion as a whole, let this House know definitely where he 

» 866 - 2-23-45 

Mr. Leavens. 

stands on the question of children' sr allowances. He was 
asked the question before this House, and it was a wonder- 
ful opportunity to answer that question yesterday, before 
the Orders of the Day. In fact, I thought he was going 
to answer it, but, much to my surprise, after a long 
speech following the reading of an article in the press, 
he failed to give us the information we have been waiting 
for in this House since the opening of the present session. 

I think it is a simple question to ask of the hon. 
Prime Minister. It should not take him long to clarify his 
position in this House as to how he stands on the question 
of family allowances. If he has changed his mind, we will 
all respect him the more for doing so, but I think he should 
tell us how he stands on this very important matter. 

MISS AGNES MACPHAIL (York East): Not to be too 
serious, Mr. Speaker, does it not come to this, that the man 
who prides himself in this province, the hon. Prime Minister, 
has, for once, made a blunder. 

MR. HEPBURN (Elgin): Once? 

MISS MACPHAIL: If we could get him to admit even 
that, that would be something.. He thinks he is the most 
patriotic man in Canada, and runs around wrapped in a flag, 
the Union Jack, and feels that nobody else can do things 
like him— 

HON. GEORGE H. DUNBAR (Ottawa South): Don't you 
like the Union Jack? 

MISS MACPHAIL: Not with the hon. Prime Minister 
in it. 

MR. DREW: I assure you you will never have me in 
it or out of it. 

B4I33 MACPHAIL: Well, that is a great personal 

- 267 - 2-23-45 

Mr. Leavens 

relief. Mr. Speaker, I have sat in other Houses and I have 
seen other Prime Ministers of both parties, but I have never 
s^en anybody so perfect as the hon. Prime Minister of this 
Iiegislature. I do not mean in my own opinion, however, 
Mr* Speaker. 

He has made a mistake on the family allowances. 

MR. MaoLEOD: He "stuck his neck out". 

MISS MACPHAIL; Yea. He flew the kite since. 
It was a political kite, but it did not "go over" and his own 
party, and the people whom he respects — I cannot think of 
whom they might be -- apparently advised him of the foolishness 
of his speech, but he does not want to say he is wrong. The hon. 
Prime Minister of this province cannot be wrong, and he is 
trying in every possible way now to avoid saying anything about 

Now, Mr. Speaker, I wish to say that I listened to 
and read the address by the hon. Prime Minister, and I must 
eay, the second time at least, was not for pleasure. I 
listened to it first, and then read it, and that is going 
quite a long way. There are two things whioh I dislike very 
much there. One is he has called it "Baby Bonus". I think 
that is, as the hon. member for Woodbine (Mr. Leavens) has Just 
said, an insult to every woman. Having babies is not a thing 
that one is going to undertake for the small amount of money 
whioh comes through family allowances. 

The other thing that I think is unforgiveable , is 
th^t he struts around saying that Ontario will do it alone; 
he said it would cost one hundred million dollars, and then 
he said, on page 6, what he could do with one hundred 
million dollars. One thing was he could .nay the allowance, 
amounting to about |45,000,000. 

- 268 - 2-23-45 

Miss Maophall 

Then pay the additional amount required to assume 
ene-half of the oost of education -- I guess that was in 
his mind — amounting to |20,000,000. 

Thi^rdly, he oould expand our Ontario highway system 
and create new recreational and tourist facilities, at a 
cost of |15,000, 000. 

Fourthly, he could expand our present municipal 
health services, for |10,000,000. That needs some expanding. 

Fifthly, apply to the annual reduction of debt of 
the province, $10,000,000. 

So, to many people who do not think — and unfortu- 
nately there are some of those who are around -- theyi^rlll 
feel that If this was done by the province, they would get 
the family allowances and all these things In addition. 

MB. BROWN: "All this and heaven, too"? 

MR. SPEAKER: Order, 

MI33.MACPHAIL: If anybody knows anything about 
Canada as a nation, they know that central Canada Is draining 
all the rest of Canada economically. If anybody Is going 
to divide the North American Continent, It should be divided 
north and south and not east and west, like It Is to-day. 
We have long parallel railroads — but It la too late to talk 
about that. 

But here In central Canada we have the heads of 
banks and Insurance companies, manufacturing concerns, and 
large businesses, draining the maritime and draining western 
Canada of their wealth, and that Is why central Canada Is 
halted by every other part of Canada, because they think that 
we are draining th^ cream from them, and then, to throw It 
In their face and Insult them all over again, by this speech of 
August 9th saying we can do It ourselves, and do much more In 

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- 259 - 8-3-45 

Miss Jifacphail 

addition, only emphasizes what they already think about 
central Canada, and it would have been very interesting 
for the hon. Mr. Drew to tiave heard sooie of the things I 
have heard in western Canada iimaediately after this speech 
was made. It has given one more instance of how far it 
did go in national disunity, and it was not only disunity 
with regard to Quebec — altho^Jgh that was the clearest 
point in it — and I am leavirig it, because the rest have 
talked about it — but it was disunity toward every part 
of Sanada that could not do as well as lOntario for them- 
selves, and if there is anything I cannot endure 14 a 
person it is when they can do better than their neighbours, 
they are forever tellirig them about it, and that is what 
this was. 

Therefore, I feel if there is any way of the hon. 
Prime Minister making it clear to the House that he was wrong 
on August 9th, -- and he knows it --it will really be that 
we can all respect him for it -- if he will say he was 
wrong . 

I have always wondered why governments never can be 
wrong. The rest of us can do wrong, and we can say to a 
friend, "We were wrong; we made a mistake, and we are sorry,"* 
but governments do not do that; they ara always right, and 
always perfect, and I think that is one of the hardest things 
for the people, the electors, just the common, ordinary "guys", 
to bear* 

MR. ARTHUR WILLIAMS (Ontario); Mr. Speaker, I rise 
in this debate to express a particular point of view which I 
really had yesterday. Since I have been in this House I 
have noted that an opportunity is taken before thw Orders of 
the Day are called, to make a speech on the. pretence that the 
speech that is about to follow is of xnajor, public importance. 

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- 260 - £-23-45 

Ms3 ^acphall 

I listened yesterday to the speech of the hon. Prime 
Minister, ard not for the life of me could I see that one 
word that he said had the fainest connection with anything 
resembling "public importanoe". Rather, it was very obvious 
that the hon. Prime Minister was merely taling advantage of a 
particular opportunity to get his customary, and well-liked 
"kiolc'' at the federal government. 

I can well see that the hon. Prime Minister is 
ansK^ious to discredit the federal government, but I do not 
think that the opportunity of making a speech before th« Orders 
of the Day are called, should be used for that purpose. Let it 
be a matter of public importance, or shut up. 

MR. WSB3TSR: The same to you. 

MR. WILLIAMS: I know you would like me to shut up. 
Better men than you have liked me to shut up, euid wanted me 
to shut up, before you came on the scene, and I still have not 
shut up, and you cannot make me shut up. 

Now Mr. Speaker, who is going to make the speech? 

MR. JOLLIFFB: Oh, go ahead. 

MR. SPEAKER: Proceed. 

MR. WHI.IAM3: There is a very estiaiable gentleman 
sitting in this House, and I am particularly pleased to see 
that the estimable gentleman sits in the back benches of the 
Government. There are other very estimable gentlemen sitting 
o4»tha other side, too. I wish that I could say that they 
were all estimable gentlemen, but this particular estimable 
gentleman achieved quite an outstanding political victory 
while this House was in Session last year, and I deplored, 
during that particular election, that almost every day while 
the election was on, the hon. Prime Minister always took the 
opportunity of rising before the Orders of the Day for the 

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- 261 ^ 2»23-45 

Miss Macphall 

purpose of maiclng a political speech aboat ''booze" If yoa 
please i And when I saw children up In that gallery coming 
here for education, I began to wonder what they thought of 
the leading citizen of this province expounding so 
magnificently about "booze". 

Don't they Icnow what "booze" Is? I thought that 
there had been so much of that stuff consuraecl that everyone 
would be familiar with the term "boozel" It Is an old 
country term for beer, and other things that make you wobble 
like beer. 

After the hon. Prime Minister's speech yesterday I 
read again the two Items which ostensibly were the cause of 
the hon. Prime Minister speaking yesterday, and I could not, 
for the life of me, see Just what Importance there was, to 
cause him to rise. 

I have read his speech of August 9th, and I suppose 
It was the Conservative organization that sent It to me, a 
^ery nicely printed little pampnlet. If the stuff inside was 
«8 nice as the appearance of the thing, it would have been all 
•ylght , but it was Just not . 

I want to say here and now, with regard to that 
particular pamphlet which contained the speech of the hon. 
Prime Minister, delivered over the air, that it does not matter 
how much the hon. Prime Minister, or any other hon. member of 
his party, cares to cover up the things that were said over 
the air and printed in this pamphlet, the definite impression 
Is left throughout this Dominion that the Government of Ontario has 
expressed Itself, through the mouth of the hon. Prime Minister 
o^ the Province, as definitely against mothers' allowances -- 

MR. BLACKWELL: "Family allowances." 

MR. WILLIAMS: Yes, family allowances; I am sorry. 
There is n6 doubt about that. 

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- 262 - 2-23-45 

Mr .Williams 

As i read the speech, and as I have gone about the 
province and heard remarks regarding it, there is no doubt at 
all in the minds of the people throughout this Oanada that 
this Government is definitely against Quebec. Nor is there 
any doubt in the minds of the people of this province that 
this Government is carrying on racial warfare under the guise 
of unity. No doubt about that at all. 

I would not -- because I believe in unity -- for a 
single moment use the terms or words that are in this speech of 
the hon. Prime Minister, not even on the floor of this House. 
On pages 9 and 10, if the English language means what I believe 
it means, there is no doubt at all that by hook or by crook -- 
generally by crook -- these people if they can possibly get 
into the saddle of the government of this country are going to 
do so, and it does not matter what harm it causes in the doing. 

I want to say to the hon. Prime Minister, and I want 
to say very respectfully to some of the hon. members of his 
cabinet that I have had dealings with some of the hon .members 
of his cabinet and I think -- no, I do not "think" it; I know 
it -- that the ones I have had dealings with are very, very 
nice chaps. As a matter of fact, I do not refer to the hon. 
Minister of Labour (Mr. Daley) as "the hon .Minister" when T 
see him; I refer to him as "Todd." Between him and certain 
other members of the Government and myself there is the 
greatest feeling of friendliness, and I want it to continue, 
but I want to say if this Government and this Tory party in 
Canada wants to do anything for the well-being of tho^a people, 
Goa knows there is enough to be done here in the province of 
Ontario without ^tearing up everything throttghout the Dominion. 

I cannot help, Mr. Speaker, but refer to something 
about mothers' allowances -- no, no, I made a mistake last time 


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- 263 * 2-23-r45. 

Mr. Williams. 

and called "family allowances" "mothers' allowances", 

I have had oecaaion to try and get some allowances 
for a mother. Of course, she had not done much. She had 
just brought into the world a family, and reared them, aad 
three of her boys were serving -- three of her boys are 
serving in the armed forces of Canada. She was getting $40 
a month in 1944. I dare say she took trips to Florida on 
the balance of what she was able to save after keeping her- 
self. But she wanted to help Canada's war effort, and she 
took a job, - oh, just a small, little job, and yet an 
important one, helping in a nursery, looking after the babies 
of mothers who are in war work, -an.d she got $30 a month from 

Then the Mothers' Allowance Board cut her mother's 
allowance down to $10 a month. I took it up with the Chairman 
of the Board, another very, very estimable gentleman, and he 
wrote back and told me that the provisions under which the Board 
operated demanded that he do such things as that. I wrote back 
to him, and said, "All I can say is, then, that there is a 
drastic need of the regulations' being amended.'* 

There is a job for you to do in regard to things like 
that. You, first of all, plead that our mothers' sons go and 
fight for Canada, and then, if they go, even though they are 
getting allowances, dependents' allowances, you then help to 
keep them in a state of semi-poverty by cutting down the allow- 
ances that they were getting before the boys went away to serve. 
Let us play the game in this thing. I went on record in the 
last Session of the House when I said that I did not care who 
gets the credit, as long as the people get the benefit. 
I repeat those words here again to-day. I am on record, 
in writing, to the hon. Minister of Labour to that 

- 264 - 2-23-45. 

same effect. What does it matter, as long as the people 
get the benefit? That is the important thing, not that 
Mr. King has done it as a political bribe, as the charges 
made in the Speech from the Throne. I believe that if the 
hen. Prime Minister of this irovince had, on hearing the 
announcement of family allowances, written a letter to Mr. 
King congratulating him, there is a distinct possibility 
that the vicious, political antagonism that does exist, ap- 
parently, between Prime Minister King and the hon. Prime 
Minister of Ontario would have been considerably 
eased, if not wiped away. But, instead, the wound is 
made all the deeper because there is this outcry against 
it. And, they do not come out definitely and say they are 
against it; they just hang that hat of theirs on the 
constitutional peg. That is all they do. It won't do to 
try to decry this question of family allowances, because 
of some constitutionality. The people of this province 
and the people of this country are not going to wait for the 
adjustments of a constitutional question. They have a right 
to expect that they are going to get the benefits now, - 
benefits now for them, and the consideration of constitutional 
difficulties, if they be necessary, later on. 

I am very sorry to find out there is this hitting 
all the time about racial difficulty. The names of Mr© 
Duplessis and Mr, Godbout are pounded about. Do not let ua 
do that; let us try and do something decent for the people. 
If there is any harsh feeling between any section of the English- 
speaking people of tMs country and the French-speaking people 
of the country, then let us do everything we possibly can to 
wipe it out and clear it away, but do not let us do anything 

- 265 - 2-23-45 

Mr. Williams 

that might accentuate the differences that possibly exist. 
There is a great field for the hon. Prime Minister to follow 
in regard to this, a great field. 

I am quite certain that if the hon. Prime Minister 
would but declare himself, - and I am not going to use any 
of the terms that have been used by anybody else in this 
House, - if the hon. Prime Minister would but declare himself 
definitely, and completely, in regard to these very vital 
matters of family allowances and this wound of racial 
difference, I am quite certain he would do the greatest 
service at this particular time, and I hope the hon. Prime 
Minister will adopt that attitute and cut out all this other 
business about playing politics. 

MR. G.H. riTETCtlELL (York .North ) : Mr. 
Speaker, this matter of family allowances has been given much 
time in this Chamber, and very fittingly so. However, I am 
much more perturbed about the general atmosphere of this 
Chamber and the conduct of the proceedings during the time 
this House has been in Session up to the present time. 

Dealing with the welfare and social problems, 
generally; I have noticed in my years in this country, - 
approximately thirty-five of them, - that the battle has been 
all the time between the two old parties, as has been stated 
before. Insofar as technicalities are concerned, and the 
construction of the British-North America Act: I have often felt 
that these old astute, bewigged gentlemen of the Old Country, 
at the time of drawing this Act, drew it in such a way as to 
cause the condition that has been' maintained in this country 
through these many years, from the point of view that they 
wanted to keep control of this country. That is my own 

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•> 266 - £-23>45 

personal opinion as an Bnglishnian. 

These battles between the two old parties have gone 
oa, and in the going-on through the years they have failed 
to bring down the kind of Legislation that was of a true 
and real benefit to the conuaon people of the country. 
We find , at the present moment , that a new mask has been 
put oa by both old parties. One has changed its name, and 
the other is now pretending to become a little more pro- 
gressive* In fact, both of them are pretending to do that. 

Let us deal with the facts as we have seen them. I 
cannot fail to taice this opportunity to remind the hon. 
member for iSlgin (Mr. Hepburn) of the moat unsatisfactory 
ooaditioas that existed prior to the Citbreak of this war. 
In my capacity, as a member of the ccah«^ll of the township 
of North YorJc -- we had the very unfortunate experience of 
having received deputations of young men residing in the 
municipality asking for food, clothing and shelter, because the 
Government of the day, let by the honourable gentleman from 
Slgia (Mr. Hepburn), had refused them, definitely, any such 
maintenance. I see that he is now attending meetings through- 
out this province, speaking very highly of our glorious men 
serving overseas, and stating how determined he is to see, 
when they come back, that theyshould have a square deal, that 
they shall have that kind of heritage to which they are justly 
entitled. I do sincerely hope and trust he has suffered a 
change of heart since the years of 1937, 1938 and 1939. 

Just one other matter I would like to speak on, and 
that is the tendency of the present Session to indulge in the 
orgy of wise-cracking. I know it is very nice, - 
there is no one fonder of telling s story and getting a 
laugh than I am - but we are not assembled here for that 

£67 -^ 2-23-45 

Mr .Mite hell 

purpose. If ever a Goveraraent had the responsibility of 
bringiiig down legislation that will help the people of 
this province and the coantry, this is the time, this is 
the day, and it rauat be done. -He must not apeak too 
much of the future. This Session^ socaething should be done 
in a ooiistruotive manner that is goirig tc show our people 
here and those fighting overseas that when they come bacic 
that they are not goiag to be b&ci^ on the bread lines 
within twelve months of coming back* These a^n are going 

over there, Mr. Speaker, as I ar.d other hon. members of 
this House did during the last war, and are being told as 
we were then, that they are fighting i > order that the 
world may b© fit for hero<33 to li^s in- 

I am satisfied, the way we are going, as far as the province 
of Ontario in conceraed, the DoKd.aicni Governaant aad the 
United Nationals, generally, with the present-day leaders, 
apparently we are not going to do that very thing. The very 
tactics tend to show it <> The old fight is on again for 
power and control, for domination of business, fighting for 
control for a certain kind of airline, and everything else, 
predicated on one country, or bloc of countries, dominating 
one country or bloc of countries. 

'He should look toward the future with some confidence 
and some hope that conditions will be better, and these 
tactics must cease, and the true spirit of co-operation must 
prevail. If that fails, Mr» Speaker, I submit, all these 
men now overseas are definitely fighting in vain. 

MR. CY3IL OVERALL (Niagara Falls): If I remember 
correctly, Mr. Speaker, aorae years ago the Conservative 
Government, under R.B.Bennett, passed a Federal Act called 

268 - 2-23-45 

Mr .Mitchell 

the UH«mploymeat Insurance Act. There was some question 

at that time as to whether the Federal Pal li amen t had 

authority to collect money under that Act and pay it out 

as benefits all across the Dominion. That matter, I 

believe was referred to the Courts, and kicked around for 

some time, and finally became effective id the year 1940. 

I would like to read a statemeat that was made in 

the famous speech of August 9th, anii this is how it goes: 

"Afly citizea who objects to aay law which 13 not 
in accordance with our constitution can go before 
the Courts aad have that law upset <, It is 
therefore of the utmost importacoe that all laws 
passed either by the Dominion or Provincial 
Governments shouj.d be in accordance with our 
oonstitufcioft, not only because tha various govern- 
ments may regard that as, but because it 
is within the power of anyone who wishes to do so 
to have the legality of aay se-isure tested in the 
Courtflo For that raasoas, confusioa, and in some 
cases very great hardships, must follow if laws 
would appear to produce useful results are 
passed in defiance of the very clear limitations 
imposed upon either the Dominion or the Provincial 

I would like to know if the hon. Prime Minister, 
Mr. Speaker, stands by the spirit of that declaration • 
in his speech of August 9th, and if he is prepared to refer 
these contentious matters before the court. 

HON. GEORGE A.DREW (Prime Minister); I think, 
if other hon. members who wish to speak on this debate shall 
do 30 , I shall be glad to make a statement later. 

MRS. R.M. LUCOCK (Bracondale ) s I rise to give 
my contribution toward this debate on family allowances, and 
I speak as a mother. We are told the greatest asset in the 
country is our children » and I think everyone will agree with 
me that that is 3o» Vfithout population you cannot have a 
country, and we have to have a place for our people to live 
la. I do not think there is aayoody in society that understands 

269 - 2-23-45 

Mr. Overall 

the problem at home as much as a mother does. '.Then I read 
the statistics, they tell me one third of the population 
live on leas than nine hundred dollars a year. That 
should tell U3 we do need family allowances » ivlothers are 
particularly concerned about their children 'round about 
themo They are concerned abdut their health, their 
happiness f, their culture* their clothing and their educa- 
tion. All these things help to raaite a life, and they are 
concerned about buildixig all these little lives into good 
citizens o The infant mortality in this country is twenty- 
seven per cent aoove that of the United States. I think we 
should hang our heads in shame. There "* ■ a cause for this 
in the majority of the cases, as developed by forcing 
the people to live on leas th&a it is poaaible to live on 
and be healthy and happy. I cannot uuderatand, -- W© are 
the elected representatives of the cifeijsens, -- I cannot 
understand the mentality of a person who would ask anyone 
to live oil auch a meagre su'paistence as nine hundred dollars 
a year, or less. You cannot possibly feed them, clothe 
them and house them and educate them and bring th^a up to be 
respectable citizens, and have them develop the mentality of 
respectable citizens under those circumstances. 

They are the children that produce the criminals, 
and will do so, perhaps, in the days to come. 

I think a very reputable body is the Ontario Welfare 
Council, who gave them the least possible subsistence level 
at t28o35 a week for a faoiily of five. I think it is 
trememdously low at that scale. 

I also read in the statistics of 1939 reagarding 
Toronto schools. It is said the weight and size of the child 

- 270 - 2-23-45 

Mrs* Lucock 

depends on the occupation, or, that is, the inoome, and, 
therefore, all children in the lower-income group, 
thirty-seven per cent of the children, are very much 
smaller than they should be. They are the ones on relief 
at that time. Under the average type, a group of twbhty- 
nine per cent were labourers, and then the children of 
the next class, managers and professional workers, were the 
tallest of the group. 

I thinJc that is a thing we oixght to bear in ttiind, 
because^ after all, we are only tenants of this world 
for a little while, and the rent we pay is the service we 
give to others, and in this short time we should try and 
help to leave our world a little better* and the greatest 
thing we can do is to turn to the childhood, and help 
develop these little citizens who are going to talce our 
places when we pass on. I think this is th^ greatest thing 
in life, and the greatest way in which we can spend our time 
is by doing that very thing. 

I do not want to see this country divided, and 

there is not anybody fighting harder to keep it together 

as a great country than I am. I am a worldly citizen, and 

look upon people of Europe as my brothers, - not 

only the people of Quebec , the people right across the 

Dominion, I look upon them as my brothers as much as the 

people of this province. I feel there are two types of 

people in society, autocrats and democrats, and the autocratic 

are those who are more self-centres than the democratic 

people. They seem to be a little narrower in their vision 

of world problems and citizenship problems than the democratic 

people . 

- 871 - 2-'<Z< 46 

Mra ;.ickocic 

As I sit here, and as I am aew, I a-t ilagusted, 
and, as I have soraetiraes said, if the peo ?] » )f Ontario 
would coma down here and really see the waj t lot of us 
conduct ourselves, I am afraid theywould th .*( w us out, 
bag and baggage. I think our responsibility is the same 
as a parent's responsibility in the tiome , to look 
after and help the welfare of every living soul in this 
province, arid, not forgetting our vision, gc past the 
borders of Ontario, and from the Dominion into the world, 
I want to give all the contribution I can to help the 
people of the country and help build a country that the 
people will say they are glad they are here, instead of 
sayirjg they rather wish they had never oorae. 

I think wa, as elected representatives of the people, 
- if we would just remember we have a responsibility to 
each and everyone, not only to the electorates of our 
constituency, but to every citizen in this province,- we 
do not have to bicker and go on the way we do a great 
deal, but let us give real, constructive, worthwhile thought 
towards the problems that face us. 

MR HARRY C. NIXON (Brant): WIr. Speaker, I had 
not intended to address you on this occasion, as this is 
Friday afternoon, and the hour is getting late, and the 
matter is before the House in a form of motion. If we let it 
die this afternoon it may be extremely difficult to again 
get this question of fa-uily allowances before the House, und«ir 
the rules of debate. I had hoped that before this the hon. 
Prime Winiater would have seen fit to have declared the 
position of the Crovernment in this vitally important matter, 
but so far he has not done so* 

- 272 - 2-23-45 


HON. GEORGE A. DREW (Prime Minister): I do not 
want to interrupt, but I might explain that I had in 
mind if the hen. member wishes this explanation I will 
be very glad to give it to him. 

MR. NIXON; It was my intention to keep the matter 
open by moving a formal movement. 

MR, DREW 5 It was my proposal to keep it open, so 
it would not die. 

MR. NIXON: Then my motion would be acceptable to 
the hon» Prime Minister. I was going to move, seconded 
by Mr. Oliver, that the amendment to the motion that 
this House adjounn be made by adding the words that this 
House stands adjourned until fthe Governuent is prepared 
to state its policy on family allowances. 

MR, DREVsf; No, I think, as a matter of fact, what 
I have in mind is exactly what you have in mind, and I 
think that it is perfectly obvious the hon. members 
had wished to discuss this matter. I said, on an earlier 
occasion, that this matter would be discussed, and I do 
not know how anyone who listened to what I said yesterday 
could assume that that was more than a presentation of the 
statement in regard to certain material that is before us. 
One thing I cannot help commenting upon is the critism 
which comes because I did not say enough, and then the 
criticism that came saying I have taken so long. I have 
said we propose to discuss this, and I mean that, and it is 
not my custom, in spite of what may be said by any hon. 
member present, to back away from a statement I have made or 
any undertaking I have given, and it is certainly the 
intention of not only the Government, but I know it is the 

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- 873 - 2-23-45 

Mr. Orew 

wish of several hon. membera on the Governiaent aide. 

I believe, from the ij^dications I have received, there 

are others who still wish to speak, aad I would move 

the adjoiirnment of the debate, whioh would bring the debate 

on on Monday. 

MR, E. B. JOLLIFFE (Leader of the Opposition): If 
the hon. member for Brant (Mr. Nixon) has no objection* 
I would like to add this suggestion; I think what he 
had in mind was that the matter should not be closed 
merely because of the lateness of the hour, and, I take 
it, the hon. Prime Minister agrees with that suggestion. 
I have not the slightest objection to the discussion 
continuing on this subject at the convenience of the 
House. As a matter of fact, I am in favour of it, and 
I have no objection to the discussion wtoich has been 
brought on to-day, bat I think there are one or two points 
that ought to be made clear, and I am not now addressing 
myself on the subject matter. 

The first point is, whatever the result of this 
particular discussion may be, I take it that the vrtiole 
suDject can also be discussed in the debate on the address 
in reply to the Speech from the Throne. That is point 1. 

So that the motion moved to-day, to whioh I 
have not the slightest objection, by the hon. member for 
Bellwoods (Mr. MacLeod) was, in fact, a kind of dress 
rehearsal or curtain raiser to what might be said in the 
Throne Speech debate by many hon. members. However, I 
think it just as well the question should be ventilated 
as soon as possible* 

The second suggestion I wish to mgJce , and I would 

- 274 - 2-23-45 

Mr. Jolliffe 

be pleased to hear fro;n the hon. mamber for Brant (Mr. 
Nixon), is that the motion moved by the hon. membar for 
Bellwoods (Mr. MacLeod), under Rule 36, with the consent 
of the apeaker, was for the purpose of discussing a matter 
of urgent purblic importance. 

Now, Mr. Speaker, I would suggest such q motion 
is a technical one, a formal motion for the purpose of 
conducting any di&cussion, and for that purpose, only. If 
such a resolution could be brought to a division in a 
hurry, - I know nobody has that in mind, - but if it could 
be brought in a hurry, it would be unfair to many hon. 
members, because they have had no formal notice, and if 
the subject matter is to be debated in the House, then 
the hon. members are entitled to notice and to be able 
to prepare themselves for what is coming. That is ray 
understanding of the rules ^ The motion is a technical 
one, for the purpose of bringing on a disouasion. 

MR. NIXON: On that point of order, my recollection 
is not too clear, but it is my recollection there is a 
section dealing with this particular matter, that a subject 
having Dean dealt with, and dropped, that motion cannot 
be brought up again in the same Session. 

BSR. SPEAKER: I am very anxious to protect you 
against yourself and others, if you will allow me a moment 
to confer. I am of the opinion a matter left to-day cannot 
be brought again before the House. I have in mind what 
you desire to do. The motion raised was whether the 
discussion, if adjourned now, could be continued later on 
in the Session. I give you my word I have no desire now 
or at any other time to resort to sharp practice, bit, rather, 
express the will of the House. If you accept the motion of the 

- 275 - 2-23-45 

hon. Prima ii^iaistar, to adjourn this particular matter, 
I think the matter will be dealt with later on. 

MR. NIXON: That is satisfactory. 

MR. SPEAKER: Moved by Mr. Nixon the debate be 

Motion carried. 

MR, SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. 

HON. L. M. FROST (Provincial Treasurer): I would 
ask to postpone the matter that I had intended to speak 
about. I think what I have to say would be all right 
on Tuesday. I placed a copy of tbe Mining Regulations, 
part 8 of the Mining Regulations, on the desk of the 
hon, members, and it will give then an opportunity to 
look them over. 

MR. SPEAKERS: Orders of the Day. 

MR, DREiV: In view of what my colleagues have said 
I taove the adjournment of the House. 

MR. JOLLIFFE: Just for the sake of clarity ,wbile 
the hon. members are still here, perhaps the hon. Prime 
Minister would indicate what he has in mind with respect 
to Monday. Does he have in mind that v;e shall resume the 
debate which has been taking place to-day, which seems 
to me to be rather like a miniature debate on the address, 
or proceed with the consideration of the address in reply? 

MR. DRE»V: Mr, Speaker, I think, perhaps, the best 
way of dealing with this would be that, having regard to 
the course of the debate, that we proceed with this debate 
on Monday, if it is agreeable to the hon. members, and the 
debate on the Speech from the Throne on Tuesday. 

I ati entirely prepared to accomodate the hon. 
members in ccntinuing tie discussion which has taken place. 

- 276 - 2-23-45 

and I think it should be contued. I made a very clear 
statement that this would be discussed in the debate on the 
Speech from the Throne, and that every hon. member has 
a right to discuss this in the debate on the Speech from, 
the Throne . 

I might say it is rather interesting to find that 
some of those who are so critical of some kinds of 
procedure before the Orders of the Day should find it so 
convenient, on other occasions, to adept a course which 
side-tracks the course of the debate. 

I think if the kon. Leader of the Opposition 
agrees, rather than leave him uncertain as to when he 
shall continue the debate on the Speech from the 
Throne, that toay be adjourned until Tuesday, and this 
discussion could be continued on ^londay. Then, if 
time remains, we will proceed with certain Bills. 

MR. JOLLIFFE: I would accept that assurance of 

the h©n. Prime Minister, and I hope it is satisfactory 

to all the hon. members. 

Motion agreed to; the House adjourned at five 
of the clock, p.m. 

Page 295 follows. 


- 295 - 



Toronto, Ontario, 
Monday, February 26,1945 

SPEAKER: Hanourable William Jo Stewart, C»B.B, 

The House met at tkreo o'clock* 

Prayers . 

MR. SPEAKER: Presenting petltionSo 

Reading and receiving petitions » 

CLERK OF THE HOUSE: Tke following petitions have 
been receivedo 

From the Corporation of the City of Peterborough, 
praying that an Act may pass authorizing the establishment 
of a body to be known as the Peterborough Memorial Community 
Centre, and the issue of debentures to raise $75,000 to aid 
in the construction of the first unit of such centre* 

From the Corporation of the City of London, praying 
that an Act may pass authorizing the Corpoi^tion to provide 
additional accommodation at the Victoria Hospital at a cost 
of $100,000, and to amend the Act to incorporate the tester* 
Fair Associationo 

The following petition was brought and laid upon 

the table: 

By Mr, Overall, the petition of the Corpora tion of 
the Township of Stamford. 

MR. SPEAKER: Presenting reports by committees « 

Motions o 

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« 296 - 2-26-45 


MR. JC6EPH B. SAL3BERG (St, Amdrow)? MroSpaaker, 
with referoace to a motion of mine gel the Order Paper, I 
askod tke hon. Prime Minister last week when he intended to 
call that motion, and he stated in the House he would call 
it 013 Momdayo I would be glad if we could proceed with 
the motion at this timeo 

HON» GEORGE A, DREW (Prime Miaister): Mro Speaker » 
I did not say it would bo ^called**^ oa Monday; I said the 
question would be answered on Menday, aad I propose to 
aaswer it for him, aad I caa take it up now, &r before the 
Orders of the Day; either is agreeable te meo But since 
it has beea raised^ perhaps I caa deal with it just uowo 

As was aanouaoed by the hon. Minister of Labour 
(Mr„ Daley) ©n differeat occasioas, it is the intention te 
have a continuing eiamiaatien of the labour iegislatloa of 
this provincdo The Gererament has expressed its wish 
that there should be such continuing examination, ands> 
consisteat with thatg it is the desire of the G©verxiiaeat 
that there be a select committee of this House appointed^ 
with similar powers to those which the Sleetior Committee 
had, which was, I believe, one of the most satisfactory 
cemmittees that this Legislature has ever hadj, bosause 
it was aa achievement of the highest ©rder^ and upe». ail 
substantial facts it attained uaanimityo 

The Gtverameat must assume responsibility for the 
•rder ia which matters are brought in^ if there is t© be 
aay coherence in the business ©f this Legislature at ail, 
and it is the intention of the Government, consistent with 
the position it has taken, to move for such a select com- 
mittee, with the widest possible powers, which include 
powers beyond the ordinary committees of the House, to 
inquire into thewhole problem of labour relations, and my 

-. le 


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- 297 - 2-26-45 

MTo Drew 

suggestion is, that, as in the case of the Election 
Committee, there be five members of the Government, four 
members of the Opposition, two members of the Liberal party, 
and one of the other party represented; and that if the 
leaders of the three groups will give to me the names of 
the hon. members they desire to act — and I would not ex- 
pect them to give them immediately — I will include those 
in the motion to be introduced on Wednesday. As I have 
said, this motion will give the fullest powers, and I am 
quite prepared to accept any suggestion as to the procedure 
to be followed o 

That, then, will be before the Legislature, and it 
is not my intentioa to call a motion on the Paper before that, 
as this is a Government motion which deals with the question 
in a way which I believe is consistent with the best practice 
of this Legislature, and which I believe has produced such 
excellent results on a foimer occasiono 

MR, SALSBERG: Mr, Speaker, may I say to the hon. 
Prime Minister that I am glad to hear that the Government is 
seeing the need for such a committee at this time, although 
there was no indication of such in the Speech from the 
Throne J nor in the discussions with responsible members of 
the Government dealing with this, but it is the intention 
of my motion to have a select committee appointed which will 
report and make recommendations, and propose a labour Code for 
Ontario during this session of the Legislature, so that we 
may deal with it, and adopt it during this session, so matter 
how long or how short the session, because of circumstances, 
may be* 

Now, what assurance have we that the motion which 
the Government will introduce will also provide the condi- 
tions for reporting the findings of such a committee to 



8 c' 




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- E98 - 2-26»45 


thia Lagislature for action during this session? 

MRo DREW; Mro Speakerg that will be a matter for 
debate on the motion on Wednesdayo I have stated the 
position of the Gevernmentj and I ask the cooperation of 
the leaders of the other groups, and I would wslcome their 
suggestions as to the procedure which they prefero 

MRo Eo Bo JOLLIFFB (Leadar of the Opposition)? 
Mro Speaker, I shall be glad indeed to take the matter up 
with otner members of this Opposition group 9 and we shall 
advise ihe hon» Prime Minister before Wednesday what our 
attitude ls<, 

MRo SPEAKER; Introduction of bills, 

HON. LESLIE Eo BLACKWSLL (Attorney General)? Mr, 
Speaker, I inovej seconded by Mro Frosty that leave be given 
to introduce a bill intituled "The Securities Act, 1945,* 
and that same be now read a first tlmeo 

Motion agreed to and bill read the first timeo 

ifflo JOLLIFFB s Mro Speaker » would the hon^ Attorney 
General give us a word about the scope of this legislation? 

MRo BLA.GKWSLL; Mro Speaker, in response to the 
request of the Leader of the Oppositionj and perhaps oy 
reason of the very nature of this bill 3 I may try to be a 
bit more comprehensive than I would be on first reading 
0f some billSs, and perhaps indicate to the House m,ore 
broadly some of the principles involved in the legisla-* 
tion, than I might be on an ordinary billo 

In the first place, I will try to give youy as 
broadly as possible, a general picture of the billo Tho 
House will recall that the Royal Commission on Mining was 
established, and one of the functions of it was to report 
and make recommendations respecting the state of securities 
legislation in the province of Ontario o I might say that 


ni &. 


- 299 - 2-26-45 


the Act in force in Ontario at the present time is knowm 
as the Securities Act of 1930 o In that Act is found part 
of the law governing the trading in securities in this 

Shortly following 1930, when that Act was enacted 
hy Ontario, practically every other jurisdiction in 
Canada followed that Act, approximately. But, since 
1930, by reason of the divergence that naturally results 
from such legislation and the passing of n\imerous regula- 
tions under their respective Acts under their law, we have 
not even approached uniform legislation in the Dominion 
to-day, and we have, in OntariOg in existence an Act, no 
matter what else may be said about it, that constitutes 
the law that is found both in an Act and in regulations a 

So, broadly speaking, what we have done is this: 
We have considered the recommendations of the Royal Com- 
mission on Mining, and we have proceeded to establish 
certain preliminary principles or proposals with rela- 
tion to that report and other recommendations madeo 
We then changed, in draft form, certain principles of 
the Securities Act of 1930, and, subject to the new prin- 
ciples, consolidated both existing legislature and this 
regulation into a new statute, in the course of which 
we ordered the new hillo 

I think I might indicate, for the information 
of hon. members, what might be regarded as the most funda- 
mental aspect of the billo It brings out, if I may say 
so, what might be termed our system of government; that 
is, responsible government o Our Securities Commission, 
in my view, has represented a confusion of thought between 
the law officers of the crown enforcing offences regarding 
the Securities Act Regulations and the Code of American 


■id J ^- 




- 300 - 2-26-45 


concept of a non-restionslble agency. Consequently, there 
has always been a doubt in this province as to who was 
responsible for the broad policy under our Securities 
legislation, and who bore responsibility for the adminis- 
trative policies o 

Was it a thing in Ontario called the Securities 
Commission or was it the Government responsible to this 
Legislature who, in turn, are responsible to the people 
of the province? Examination of the Act will indicate 
that the Government and the Legislature took: the respon- 
sibility, under this Act, by determining, with some pre- 
cision;, the policy,, Subject to the overall concept, this 
Act» if I might say so, represents a return to this con- 
cept that there is no agency established by the Government 
that provides a mind so brilliant that that mind can deter- 
mine whether a security is a sound security to be pur- 
chased by a member of the public, or not. So, it will 
be found in this Act that there is anabandonment of the 
theory that the Commission, somehow or other, reconrniends 
the securities for sale, and consents to their sale on 
the implied basis that somehow or other they have the 
Government's approval. What this Act contemplates is that 
the applications will be honest, and the companies and pro- 
moters engaged in the business will tall the truth about 
the securities they sell to those members of the public 
they approach to induce to buy. That is contemplated 
in the proposal under this Act, that there will be proper 
filings made with the Securities Commissiono The Securi- 
ties Commission will have certain duties with relation to 
whether or not these filings are accepted for filings, and 
the people selling these securities will be required to 
furnish to the members of the public who are asked to 


E f)EB 

iuode. dd^u- 


-a OCT 

)0 sv . 



- 301 - 2-26-45 


subscribe to these securities a primary distribution to 
the public the old time- honoured thing called a prospectuso 
I can add this» in general: I& framing the Act, I 
indicated we started out with having taken the Act to a cer- 
tain stage, departmentally o Following that, representative 
committees of the different bodies into which the people in 
the securities busiiBss are organized were invited to con- 
sider the proposal at the stage to which it had then been 
developed., and to make representations and recommendations, 
and s, in that respect, I want to say the organizations repre- 
sentative of the whole field of the securities business have 
been intensely helpful and cooperative with the Government, 
and I believe I am able to go this far on the introduction 
of this bill to say that it commends itself to those i-epre* 
senting all organized elements in the securities busirissso 
I might indicate to the House that the committees repre- 
sentative of the investment dealers associations 3 the 
stock exchange brokers j a great number of non-member 
brokers who are not members of any exchanges, and even a 
group of brokers who were not organized in any fashion, 
were represented before me by counsel on the mattero 

In the preparation of this bill, representing the 
Government in the matter, I have followed the time-honoured 
and democratic method of sitting down and considering the 
problem with the people who will actually be affected by 
the administration of the Acto I hope that will suffice 
the hono Leader of the Opposition (Mro Jolliffe) as a 
broad indication of what this bill is abouto 

I will deal, of course, on second reading more 
comprehensively with that than I have to-day, and I will 
deal with some of the many principles found in the new 



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- 302 - 2-26-45 

Mrs. Luckock 

Iiffl. SPEAKER: The Chair recognizes the hon. member 
for Bracondale (Mrso Luckocic)o 

MRS. R, M. LUCKOCK (Bracondale): I would like to 
correct a statistical report I gave in the matter of the 
Family Allowances Act. I am quoted as having said the 
mortality rate of Canada was 27 jer cent below that of 
the United States, and I should have said 27 per cent 
higher than the United Stateso I had the figures in front 
of me, and I do not know how I came to say it, I am sure, 
but I also find in our Hansard report I am quoted as saying 
the^mentality^rate of Canada is 27 per cent below that of 
the United States. I just wish to make that correction 
of a mistake made last Friday, 

1J!R, E, B. JOLLIFFE (Leader of the Opposition): 
Mr. Speaker, before the Orders of the Day are called, and 
before the other matters are proceeded with, I rise to 
protest against the substance of information contained in 
the Toronto Daily Star of Saturday, February 24th. On the 
financial page of the Star of that date appeared an announce- 
ment in these words: 

•A new director joins the board 
of the Chartered Trust and Executor 
Company, Thomas Ho Eogg, B.A.SCo, etc. 
Chairman and Chief Engineer, Hydro 
Electric Power Commission of Ontario »" 

I simply wish to say, Mro Speaker, in our view it 
is not proper that a public servant, such as Doctor Hogg, 
should have accepted such a directorship, if he has done 
so, and I suggest at the appropriate opportunity the 
Government should state whether they approve or disapprove 
of a public servant accepting a directorship in this way 
in a private enterpriseo 

HON. GEORGE A. DREJ? (Prime Minister): I should be 
very pleased to take into consideration the information 




-90X1 Xflloaanil 


303 « 2-26-45 

Mr D Drew 

given meo The Toronto Daily Star is not my favourite 
newspaper, and I shall follow up the information and give 
a statement in regard to it» 

MR> SPEAKER; Introduction of billSo 

HON. LESLIE E„ BLACKWELL (Attorney (Senoral): I move, 
seconded by Hono Lo Mo Frost, for leave to introduce an Act 
respecting prospecting syndicates having a capital not ex- 
ceeding ten thousand dollars, and that it may bo now read 
the first timeo 

Motion agreed to and bill read the first timeo 

MR» TAYLOR (Temiskaming ) s Would the hon. Minister 
please explain this bill? 

MR. BLACOELL; Mr. Speaker i^ the bill that has just 
been introduced ^ which has to do with prospecting syndicates 
not exceeding $10^000, is a bill cGciplementary to the 
Securities Act of 1945o Briefly, the bill expects a bona 
fide prespector not to sell to a syndicate that he might 
form without complying with the principles of the Securities 
Aoto The bill provides for a simple form of da-ilaraticn 
within the syndicate agreement itself 3 and provides that 
each person to whom a prospector sells such syndicate units 
should be furnished with a copy of the agreement ujBder 
which he buys, and subject to these rather simple prin~ 
ciples the bona fide prospector is entitled to form and 
sell units in as many syndicates as he likes o 

MR, SPEAKER: Introduction of bills o 

Friday afternoon a motion was carried t© adjoura 
the House to discuss a matter of public importance.. 

HON. GEORGE A. DREW (Prime Minister); Mr„ Speaker, 
this being a motion to adjourn the House there is a time 
limit, and without in any way questioning what has taken 
place I would recall that there had been a clear undertaking 




- 304 - 2-26-45 

Mr> Drew 

that this was to bo discussad in the Speech from the Throne 
aad should have been. 

I latend to make only a very brief statement to- 
day, for the purpose of bringing to an end the continued 
misrepresentation of the position of this Government in 
regard to family allowances. When the matter was raised 
at the beginning of this session I stated that the subject 
would be dealt with fully at the proper timeo That proper 
time is in the debate on the Speech from the Throne o I 
alkali discuss this subject at seme length in that debate, 
and I might point out that I w©uld have spoken before this 
if we had not beea precipitated into a wholly unnecessary 
discussion, in view of the assurance which I had given» 

But there have been enough misstatements in ad- 
vertisements in the press, and even in this Legislature, 
to call for a repetition of the statement of our position 
at this time. The statement I g^ve to the Legislature 
last Thursday was not intended as a complete statement on 
this subject, nor was there any suggestion that it was 
intended to take the place of the remarks I proposed to 
make in the debate on the Speech from the Throne. I did 
so because we had been proceeding with that debate, and 
I thought it was proper that the facts should be before 
the Legislature as to what the situation waSo I did re- 
call, however, our positive and very definite statement 
that — and I quote — 

•*We are in favour of every 
proper step being taken to encourage 
large and healthy families o We 
believe in sound provisions for 
family allowances and social security »• 

la spite of our position having been stated so 

clearly, statements are still made that we are opposed 

to family allowa«ces» 




- 305 - 2-26-45 

Mro Drew 

I referred to the iniquitous principle involved in 
the measure which has been adopted by the Dominion Goverm- 
mento My speech quite cleatly was not referring to any 
opposition to family allowanceso No one who read that 
-- and not intending to read it in a prejudiced way — - 
could have omitted to uaderstand what I saido I was 
referring to the principle in the Dominion Act that the 
family allewaaces are act part of social security, aad 
that they should be regarded as a mere economic question. 
It Is pointed out it must be reoogaized as that, or it 
would not be within their power at all„ We also believe 
it is an iniquitous principle that very large sums of 
money should be taken from the taxpayers of this or aay 
other province to be paid for something which falls 
within the jurisdiction of the provincial goveruments , 
without consulting those provincial governments and 
establishing a proper basis of taxation and payment 
right across Canada » 

At the time I said that we would oppose the course 
being followed by the Dominion Government, we had the un- 
qualified assurance of the right hoa. Prime Minister of 
Canada that there was going to be a dominion-provincial 
conference to discuss matters of this kind, and it was 
our intention to do everything withia our po7;er at that 
conference to ensure a proper system of family all«waaces 
aad that the rights of the people of Ontario be protected, 

N©w, I cone to the suggest ioa that we intead to 
take legal steps to prevent the Dominion Act goiag into 
effect e I noticed that in a communist advertisemeat , 
but that is not our intention, and it never has beea our 
inteatioBo I have said in this Legislature aad elsewhere. 

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- 306 - 2-26-45 

Mto Drew 

many times, that I do not believe the dominion and pro- 
vincial governments should become involved i« legal 
technicalities, but, rather, they should meet arouEd the 
council table to work out their problems and fine the 
very best solution in every case, so that their combined 
powers, which do cover the whole field of legislation, 
whatever it may be, may find full expression for the ad- 
vantage of the people of this country. 

Our purpose is t© have in this province the very 
best system of family allowances which can be worked out, 
on the basis of the accumulated experience of every other 
jurisdiction which has already adopted this measure. As 
I said last week, we wish to join hands to combine our 
legislative power with that of the Dominion Government, 
to assure the best social services which can be devised. 

You will find that in a speech, as recently as 
Saturday night, Mr. Claxton made it quite clear that 
this province has been cooperating in all the preliminary 
details necessary for carrying out such a measure, under 
such terms as might be agreed upon. We have, in fact, 
under an agreement entered into last December — not a 
recent thing of the last few days — set up the most 
modern methods of recording vital statistics, and have 
installed photographic devices which provide the G-arern- 
ment at Ottawa with every detail of vital statistics for 
the very purpose of. carrying out this or any other social 
service measure o 

I believe it is an iniquitous principle that 
payments should be a mere baby bonus, and that they should 
be basedl merely upon the fact that a baby has been born. 
I believe that our people want real family allowances, in 
the clearly accepted meaning of that term, for the maintenance, 









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- 307 - 2-26-45 

MTo Drew 

eare, training and upbringing of the children in a way that 
will assure the welfare of the children themselves., That 
is not accomplished by the present dominion Acto In fact, 
it cannot be done; according to their statement, the Act 
would not be within their powero That is not accomplished 
by the present Act, and we have the clear words of the right 
hon. Prime Minister of Canada, "The Act does not in any way 
attempt to legislate In respect of family life.* If it 
has nothing to do with family life then how can it possibly 
assure the welfare of the children in those families which 
receive the money? 

As you know, we have continued to press for a 
dominion-provincial conference right up to the opening of 
this session, for the very purpose of bringing together 
the combined authorities of our governments so that in 
this and every other ease no constitutional difficulties 
may arise, and with the certainty that everything should 
be done with the full knowledge of the facts, which are 
not often presented now, and with the certainty that what 
is undertaken will be carried out in the best interests 
of our people o 

The situation then is simply this: We can only 
wait now until after the dominion election, and I do not 
think anyone in this Legislature, and certainly not the 
hon. leader of the Liberal group (Mr<, Hepburn), can be 
in doubt that the present right hon. Prime Minister of 
the Dominion will cease to be the Prime Minister, and that 
we will have there a government which recognizes its con- 
stitutional obligations and the advantage of effective 
cooperation. I feel sure we will have a government that 
will join with us and with the other provincial governments 
right across Canada — may I say five different political 




» yiWT 

- 308 - 2-26-45 

Mr. Drew 

comploxion — those are not going to change overnight — 
but we will have a government that will join in coopera- 
tion with those other provinces in establishing the very 
best measures possible in the field of social security, 
and in other fields of legislation, where the governments 
have joint responsibilitieso When that conference does 
take place we believe it will be possible to reaoh agree- 
ment upon this and every other problem which we face. 
In the case of family allowances and all other similar 
measures, our one object as a government is to bring 
into operation the very best social and other measures 
which it is within the power of this country to providco 

MR. WILLIAM DENNISON (Sto David): Mr, Speaker, 
the hon. Prime Minister mentioned we have five different 
complexions — 

MR. A. BELANGER (Prescott ) : Might I rise to a 
point of order? Has not the present speaker spoken al- 
ready on this question? 

MR. DENNISON: I am asking a question of the hon. 
Prime Minister. 

MR, SPEAKER: Out of order. This is Monday. Let 
us start the week in a little better spirit than we ended 
last week. I quite agree with the hon. member for Prescott; 
it is out of ordero I have no desire to stop the debate, 
and with the consent of the House I will permit a question, 
but I think we should keep to the rules o 

MR. DENNISON: Thank you, Mr. Speakero I would 
like to ask the hon. Prime Minister this: He said we have 
five different governments across Canada* I figure we 
have sixo I am asking if he figures that he and the 
government of Duplessis are of the same political com- 

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- 309 - 2-26-45 

ICr* Drew 

MB. DREW: I did uoX know the hon. member had 
jolaed the CommuBistSe 

HR. DSNNISON: That admits my coutentloa. 

MB. Go ANDERSON (Fort William): Mr« Speaker* la 
rising to take part In this debate I Just wish to make a 
very few observationso 

First of all, I belioTe that family allovaaoes 
are long overdue. I feel that citizens who have the 
responsibility of raising a family should have special 
considerations. There has been some fear expressed in 
certain quarters that the granting of family allowances 
will encourage large families o To those I would suggest 
that they attempt to raise a child on eight dollars a 
month . 

However, I do not believe that family allowances 
or usemplojnnent Insurance will solve our economic problems* 
I think we have to go deeper than that. le have to have 
a greater measure of social ownership if the common people 
of this country are going to emjoy the standard of living, 
this scientific day and age permits us to enjoy. 

In my opinion^ the greatest thing in life is life 
itself. We should be Interested in the welfare of the 
people at all times. We speak of demoeracy, and we, of 
course, think of democracy as defined by Abraham Linoola, 
•a government of the people, by the people, for the people," 
but I sometimes think, Judging our democracy in the light 
of the past, that It would be more proper to say it is the 
government of the pople, by the party machine, for the 

I cannot agree with those in the House who would 
have us believe that the Liberals are superior to the 
Conservatives. I do not believe the Conservatives, 

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- 310 - 2-26-45 

Mr«^ Aaderson 

alone, constitute the big, bad wolves o My memory goes 
back to the days of the depression, to the days of unem- 
ployment and poverty. During those days I saw no appre- 
ciable difference in the treatment of unemployment by the 
Liberals and the Conservatives,, It takes just about twenty- 
four hours on a fast train to bring me from my home to 
Toronto. I cannot help but contrast the difference that 
I see, in making one of these trips, in the treatment accorded 
the young people now and the treatment accorded them during 
the depressioHo During the depression very few people 
travelled standard, compared to to-day, but, on the top 
of the trains, and outside, and underneath the trains, 
hanging on the rods, could be found large numbers of men 
and women. 

At the divisional points along the north shore of 
Lake Superior, where no one would think of deserting a 
stray dog or cat, in those days it was common practice 
to see a policeman, and they cleared the trains of these 
poor mortals who were looking for employment. Then the 
train would move on. 

Now, the picture is entirely changed, and vve see 
these young men dressed in neat fitting — yes, and women — 
neat fitting, waim clothing, and they eat in the dining car, 
and they are able to sleep in the pullman car, and I am not 
complaining, but it seems to me that if we can do that in 
war time for our young people we should be able to expend 
a greater measure of social security for them in ordinary 
times o 

Now we are at war, and I sincerely hope we will not 
see the returned soldiers of this war treated as the return- 
ed soldiers of the last war werco I saw returned soldiers 
from the last war who had not committed any crime — they 


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- 311 - 2-26-45 

Mr a Anderson 

were on relief because they could not secure employment, 
and were given the sum of $2olO a week, living in dingy 
basements on that allowance <> I saw that in my home city, 
where these great grain storage headquarters are, and we 
have facilities for storing one hundred million bushels of 
wheat, and at that time the elevators were filled with 
wheat bought from farmers at prices which beggared them* 

At the beginning of this war we found that a large 
number of our men could not pass the medical examination 
because they were undernourished and were in ill health, 
caused in a good many cases from lack of proper, nourishing 

If peace were declared to-day I think you will 
agree, Mro Speaker, we are not very well prepared to meet 
the situation.. We should be discussing, right here in 
this Chamber, how we are going to provide constructive 
employment for the men and women who, will be turned out 
of the armea forces, and the men and wcanen now engaged in 
industry . 

I would suggest that the speakers who follow me 
do not take too much time on these matters o We have had 
a report from the hon. Prime Minister as to what he has in 
mind, and I think we should be getting down to business and 
laying plans for the day when peace will be declared. Let 
us not make the mess of peace that v/e did after the last 
waro We won a military victory but lost the peace of 

MR. A. BELAI^ER (Prescott): Mr. Speaker, if this 
were the debate on the family alloaiances I would have a 
great deal to say^ But I took it from what the hon. Prime 
Minister said that the question will be discussed in the 



- 312 - 2-26-45 

Uro Belanger 

debate on the Speech from the Throne » and we will all have 
an opportunity there to speak. 

The question as stated by the hon. member of this 
House who moved the adjournment was simply this, What is the 
position of the Government on family allowances?" That we 
all heardo Of course ^ in the course of zhe debate, and 
taking advantage of your good nature, Mr» Speaker, we had 
the hon. member for St = David (Mro Dennison) speaking on 
anything but family allowances, especially on what the 
Liberal government had done with direct relief, Just be- 
cause it happened to be a measure of social security. 

Well, if we are going to tack on anything that may 
be tacked onto a question, then I would say why should we 
take advantage of that fact? For instance, the hon» Prime 
Minister, if he were not wrongly reported, in regard to a 
quotation I gave the other day, where he stated, speaking 
on family allowances, that it was a good thing we have 
these marriages overseas in order to better the British 
stock here in Ontario — if I had been minded, like the 
hon. member for Sto David, I could have Jumped into agri- 
culture and spoken about pure bred stock, and so forth. 

I do not think we should be allowed to ramble all 
over the lot any more than we should Jump over a fence and 
go into a neighbour's lot. 

Unfortunately, I did not hear all the last speaker 
saido I did catch a few words — "dogs,* "cats," *wheat,* 
•unemployment* -- that was all I could hear,, I think 
everybody will agree with thato What has that to do with 
the present question I don't know, although I am quite in 
accord with the remarks of the last hono member, that we 
should go on with the business of the House and stick to 
the business of the moment. Regulations in this House 



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- 313 - 2-26-45 


have been provided especially for that, in order that we 
may go on with the business of the House, but if we take 
advantage of every question that comes up to talk on any 
subject, and try to make political capital out of it, we 
will not get anywhere. 

Now, I think the question of the hon. member for 
Bellwoods (Mr. MacLeod) has been answered by the hon. Prime 
Minister as regards the attitude of the Government. The 
hon. Prime Minister has given that answer, I think in a 
canprehensive way, and I wish to say for those outsidei of 
the House, those who are interested in my position and 
those who are interested in what I think about family 
allowances and the criticism which has been raised against 
family allowances, that they have been devised by the 
federal government, and I wish to say that I reserve the 
right, at the proper time, and in the proper place and 
on the proper Orders of the Day to discuss the question 

MR. SPEAKER; I have no desire in any way to cur- 
tail debate, and I think I have given hon. members a great 
deal of latitude. If it is the wish of the House, shall I 
call the Orders of the Day? 

MR. CYRIL OVERALL (Niagara Falls): Mr. Speaker, 
after listening to the hon. member for Prescott (Mr» 
Belanger) and ascertaining from the hon. Prime Minister the 
government's position on family allowances, I have a ques- 
tion I would like to direct to the hon. Prime Minister, if 
he has no objection, regardless of whether the hon. member 
for Prescott has any objection or not. 

Will the hon. Prime Minister tell me, when the 
family allowances came into effect, what effect they will 


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- 314 - 2-26-45 

Mpo Overall 

have on mothers' allowances, already paid in this province, 
and in regard to direct relief? 

I have noticed in the past there has always been 
some pretext' for the reduction of pensions and dependents* 
allowances o I have a number of cases in my own riding 
iphere pensions have been reduced because a young lad has 
joined the armed forces, and has paid his mother an 
allowance o 

What effect will this family allowance have on 
mothers' allowances and relief cases? 

MR. SPEAK3R: I afforded the hon. member for 
Niagara Falls (Mr, Overall) leave to ask the question, 
but I respectfully submit to this House, it is out of 
order to question anticipated legislation. 

HON. G30RGE A, DREW (Prime Minister): Mr, Speaker,. 
I shall be very glad to answer that now. That is one of 
the reasons we have been pressing for a dominion-provincial 
conference. We have not one word of official information 
as to what will happen and that is one of the things we 
feel should be clarified in the most minute detail by a 
conference with the government. 

lilR» Ea B, JOLLIFFE (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. 
Speaker, I venture to suggest that the discussion on Friday 
and to-day has served a useful purposeo However, without 
wishing in any way to interfere with the rights of any hon. 
member who still desires to speak, I am inclined to think 
that we should proceed at this point to the next order of 
business o 

I wish to say, subject to the extent to which this 
discussion has taken place on Friday and again to-day, that 
I believe this matter can be properly discussed fully — 
much more fiolly — at a later stage in the work of this 

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- 315 - 2-36-45 


Legislature, and subject again to that extent -- and I 
know I speak for several others as well as myself, when 
I say that we think the discussion has had considerable 
value, but that it need not go any further at this time. 

MR. SPEAKER: Again I repeat I want to extend to 
all hon. members of the House all the opportunities to 
speak possible, but is it the pleasure of the House to 
call the Orders of the Day? 

MR. Ao A. MacLSOD (Bellwoods); Mr. Speaker, on 
a question of procedure: I am not familiar with the pro- 
cedure which must be followed in so far as the disposi- 
tion of such a motion is concerned o Will you explain? 
There is a motion before the House.. As I understand, 
in my amateurish way, it is necessary for the mover of 
that motion to withdraw it before we can proceed with 
the Orders of the Day. 

MR. SPEAKER: It is a motion upon which the 
House does not divide, and unless someone wishes to pro- 
ceed with the discussion, we will go on with the Orders 
of the Day. 

MR. MaoLEOD: I think, since the hon. Prime Minis- 
ter has been willing to make such a humiliating retreat 
from his attitude evinced in his speech of August 9th — 


MR. MacLEOD: I will withdraw my motion. 

MR. SPEAKER: I appeal to the hon. members of this 
House o You have placed me in a most embarrassing position, 
Let us keep offensive remarks and personalities out of the 

MR. MacLEOD? There was nothing offensive about it 
at all, Mr. Speaker. 

o 1 10 li .i ., ■^'-. i.'oE 

Toi^ .HM 

- 316 - 2-26-45 

Mr. MacLeod 

MR. DUNBAR: Do not blame the hon. gentleman. 
There was a note passed across to him, and he had to say 

MRo HEPBURN (Elgin): Mto Speaker, I want to ssy 
that the hono Provincial Secretary is entirely wrong. He 
projects himself into an issue of this kind with the leap 
of a bullfrog o 

MR. DUNBAR: This is a little "free-for-all" for 
this "wise-cracker," our hono friend from Southern Ontario* 
Now, if it comes to this, there are other "wise- crackers'* 
here -- 

MR. SPEAKER: Order. 

MR. DUNBAR: — who have not been with as many 
parties, or perhaps not as many friends o 1 might remind 
him that there is an old saying, "Never bite the hand that 
feeds you." 

MR. SPEAKER: Order » 

MR. DUNBAR: The hon. member on my right does not 
seem to understand that» 

MR. SPEAKER: Hon. members, we have had enough 
levity during the last week , while the country is at war. 
Orders of the Dayo 

HON. LESLIE M. FROST (Minister of Mines): Mr. 
Speaker, with your permission and with the permission of 
the House, perhaps it might be well if I direct some 
remarks to the Pa3n3iaster disaster about which I was 
going to speak on Friday. The arrangement on Friday 
was this: We should let the matter stand over until 
Tuesday, but the hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. 
Jolliffe) goes on to-morrow, and if it his preference, 
I shall go ahead with this matter for a few minutes to- 

Xi".' *!i 



- 317 - 2-86-45 

Mr«, Frost 

Mra Speaker, I should like to give the House a 
full outline of the situation as regards the Paymaster 
disaster^ which happened at the beginning of this month. 

First of all, let me assure the House of this, 
that we are anxious that there should be the fullest in- 
quiry and the fullest disclosure of everything connected 
with that unfortunate affairo 

Now, at the present time, an inqurest has been 
ealledo I am not sure whether it commences its sittings 
to-day or to-morrow, but an inquest is being called under 
the direction of Magistrate Tucker, of Cochrane, I believe 
one of the presiding coroners in that locality. Just as 
an indication to the House of our desire that this matter 
should be freely and fully looked into, I may say that 
among the coroners in that district is the hon . member 
for South Cochrane (Mro Grummett), and we asked him if 
it was possible for him to take the inquest and preside 
over it, knowing that Mro Grummett would give it im- 
partial direction and considerationo, Mr. Grummett 
quite properly felt that if he undertook the matter at 
this time it would interfere with his attendance at the 
Legislature, and he, also quite properly, felt that some 
other coroner should take the inquest, which is now in 
progress o 

Now, Mr» Speaker, in connection with the mining 
rules, I placed the rules on the desks of each hon. member 
here last Friday. I would not like to cast any doubt upon 
the rules themselves, and you will see the purpose of my 
making that remark. These rules have been very, very 
fully gone into, and by a good many authorities it is felt 
that our safety rules, as contained in section 160, and 

a s- 


- 318 - 2-26-45 

Mro Frost 

in Part VIII of the Mining Aot, are the most 
complete and the best rules, in the main, that are in 
existence in the world, I would say to you, MroSpeaker, 
and to hon. ladies and gentlemen of this House, that since 
coming into office in August, 1943, I have travelled very 
considerably in the north country, and I have no recol- 
lection of any complaint being directed to me in con- 
nection with the ruleso I have no recolleetion either 
of any complaint having been raised here in the Legis- 
lature with relation to the rules, and I am sure there 
were no complaints directed to the Mining Commission, 
which sat in relation to the nature and scope of the 
rules o. 

However, aside from that, as I say, I am not 
ecming here casting doubt on the rules which we have in 
vogue at the present time, and I will give you an outline 
of how the rules came into beingo 

I do not want the Mining Department nor myself, 
nor does the Government want to hide behind the fact that 
accidents sometimes are inevitable, even under the best 
circumstances, and under the best conditions » Accidents 
happen on railways, and in marine affairs, and on tram 
lines, and what not. Our purpose is this — and I want 
to be perfectly frank with hon. members of this House in 
saying this — that we want to find out these things; 
first, what was the cause of this accident; secondly, 
is our inspection service as efficient and complete as 
it should be -- and that is one of the things we want to 
have answered in this inquiry. Thirdly, does our mining 
practice in Ontario produce the greatest measure of safety, 
and, fourthly, wherein may these rules and regulations be 



' CC4 


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- 319 - 2-26-45 

Mr. Frost 

Now, I think, Mr. Speaker, that that is taking 
these rules and placing them under very strict scrutiny. 
I am asking the hon. members of this House to take the 
sections of the Mining Act, and section 160, and look 
into them, not only in connection with this mining disaster, 
but with everything else and see if we are making any mis- 
takes « We are asking the fullest suggestions not only in 
connection with our mining rules. At present I have re- 
ceived many communications, one in particular protesting 
the cables used in these hoists o 

I might say to you that The International Nickel 
Company has, I believe, the largest research department, 
outside of our own Research Department, and has been 
working on electrical devices for testing cables o Some 
of the mining companies employees are working in connec- 
tion with brake testso 

I was much interested in noticing in the press 
on Saturday that a young university student at the Uni- 
versity of Toronto, Mr. Ro T, Canboy, a third year student, 
had produced a device for testing cables electronicallyo I 
congratulate Mro Canboy upon his work in suggesting a device 

I mentioned the question of our instruction staff 
in Northern Ontario, and perhaps I should make some refer- 
ence to the staff, which is maintained by the Department of 
Mines o The staff consists of eight inspectors, of whom 
one is the chief inspector, who was appointed some six or 
eight years ago, with several inspectors, one in Port 
Arthur district, one in Sudbury district, one in Toronto, 
one in Swastika, one at Kenora and one in Kirkland Lake 
district, and one in the Timmins district <> These inspec- 
tors, we think, are all very well qualified men, civil 



- 330 - 2-26-45 

MPo Frost 

or electrical engineersc 

Mro Tower, the Chief Inspector of Mines, was 
appointed in July of 1936, and was made Chief Inspector 
in 1939 o He has been in the service for nine years o 
The experience that Mro Tower has had before his appoint- 
ment was that he graduated from Queen's University in 
Mining and Metallurgy in 1912 o He was for two years 
coal mining in British Columbia and for several years 
shift boss and mine foreman with the International Nickel 
Company o He was three years a lieutenant v;ith the 
Canadian Tunneling Company in France; and six years as 
shift captain with the Bollinger Companyo Then three 
years as shift captain at the Lake Shore Mines » 

The Inspector at Timmins, Mr, Weir, was appointed 
to the service in December, 1934, and has been in the ser- 
vice now for ten yearso His experience before his appoint- 
ment was that he graduated from Queen's University in 
Mining and Metallurgy in 1926, He had two years mining 
experience, two years underground at' the Frood Mine, 
International Kickel Company; two years underground at 
Bollinger. His special qualifications are that he is 
a graduate in mining and electrical engineering and has a 
technical training. He has been supervising engineer 
of the rescue force at the Timmins Mine, 

Those are typical, I have the qualifications of 
all the inspectors in connection with mining in Ontario, and 
shall be glad to give them to the hon, members of this House, 
if they desire to have them. 

As Was contained in the little green pamphlet that 
was placed on your desks on Friday, I should say that the 
Mining Department goes back to 1920, and grew out of the 

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- 381 - 2-26-45 

MTo Frost 

Ministry of Mines o The regulations were contained in 
Part VIII of tile Mining Act, particularly Section I6O0 

The background of that particular section is 
this: In 1938 a complete revision of the Mines Act or 
Mines regulations was projected, and a conference was held 
of the various mines inspectors here in the city of Toronto; 
and at that time there was information very widely distri- 
buted throughout Northern Ontario with the general purpose 
of getting ideas in connection with Mines Regulations, and 
getting machinery set up in the various mining camps in 
Northern Ontarioo That was done. 

At that time labour was consulted and the labour 
representatives reported separately to the department 
here in Toronto. I well recollect the time when the 
amendment was brought into the House in 1939 o At that 
time I sat in the seat occupied by the hon, member for 
Rainy River (Mr. Lockhart ) , and the Hon, Mro Leduc brought 
in the regulations, and I remember the considerationwhieh 
that particular section received at that time. 

For. the information of the House, I might just 
briefly summarize some of the points in section 160, which 
refer to the Paymaster situations Subsection 139 of the 
Regulations has to do with the cage or skip for handling 
men. Section 141 has to do with all cages or skips for 
raising and lowering men, and- gives particulars of what 
is necessary^ Section 147 is hoist or stoppage for 
repairs o 

Rules 165, 166, 167 and 168 refer to the examina- 
tion of hoisting equipment <> Rules 169 to 179, inclusive, 
refer to a number of things such as the history of the rope 
and the fact that the hoist rope is not to be spliced, and 


- 322 - 2-26-45 

Mr, Frost 

the length of the rope required on the drum when the cage 
is at the bottom, and a large number of things, which the 
hon, members will see for themselves. 

Section 177 refers to the testing of the hoist 

rope o 

I should say to hon. members that in the Mines 
Department, in the east block, we have one of the 
largest testing machines in the British Empire, which 
is capable of breaking a rope with a million pounds 
capacity. It is the largest machine in Canada and the 
Royal Canadian Navy use it at the present time in con- 
nection with their worko 

Sections 168 and 179 deal with all matters in 
connection with hoists and ropes and the tests that are 

I should say this to you, that I find that the 
question of safety devices with catches is a very large 
and difficult questiono In South Africa, where their 
rules are considerably like ours, in some ways, it is 
said that the South African rules are stricter than ours. 
It should be said that they rely upon the cable itself, 
without any safety device o Their reason for doing that 
is because they contend that with very heavy equipment, 
safety devices are of very little value. Our Mines De- 
partment has never taken that viewo Hono members can 
see that if the lift or elevator itself is raised up and 
a break takes place when the lift is going up, then it 
comes to a point of rest before it starts down; and in 
that point of rest the brake would take effect. 

On the other hand, if the cable breaks while 
the carriage is going down — which is very seldom — the 



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- 323 - 2-26-45 

Mto Frost 

momentum would be such that the blochs would not be en- 
gaged or if they did they would simply tear down a 
portion of the shaft and would not act as a brake at 

MR. ANDERSON: Particularly at high speeds. 

MR. FROST: Particularly at high speeds. I 
do not think it would be proper for me to discuss this 
matter fully, particularly on any controversial matter; 
but the hon. members here who are familiar with mining 
operations know that these shafts are very deep and the 
cages travel at very great rates of speed. 

You will see that if the cage is dropping down 
in this manner the pressure you would imagine would be off 
the cable itself » The cable goes up and over a shaft 
wheel and on to a drum, and acts as a means by which the 
cage is stopped or changedo 

In this case the rope broke just as it was going 
over the drum, and the brake would be the least capable 
of working for the reason that when the cable is under 
pressure it acts as a brake itself » But when it is at 
depth, it is different. There are many items that come 
up when you start studying the matter of cable devices. 

As I say, the African rules were stricter than 
our own in some particulars and for the obvious reason that 
they are not dealing with the type of labour that we are 
dealing with in this country. In Africa everyone of any 
responsibility in mining Is under the strictest super- 
vision in connection with the efficiency of safety 
deviceso However, we have, as I say, these contro- 
versies which we find exist particularly In connection 
with heavy equipment. Now, as you can quite see, sup- 
posing a safety device does not work, supposing the cage 

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Mr. Frost 

is going down at a great speed and safety device worked, 
it might just drop down from the ceiling of this chamber 
to the floor when the safety device worked. As I say, 
you get a great deal of controversy in connection with 
this particular matter. 

Now, Mr a Speaker, we have decided this: Seeing 
the difficulties that there are in connection with the 
whole safety device matter and the fact that some people 
think that despite everything it is better to depend on 
the strength of the cable itself, we have felt we should 
make certain inquiries into the whole matter of safety 
tests and, furthermore, some tests which can be made of 
the cable itselfo Now» our Regulations prevent the 
use of a spliced rope^ It may be that our Mine Regu- 
lations should be changed in that regard o As I say, 
advances have been made to us in connection with elec- 
tronic device to test the strength of cable by means of 
electricityo It may be quite possible to devise some 
method of that sort which would keep the cable con- 
stantly under supervision by means of the cable run by 
some electronic device in its ordinary operation. If 
that were done of course it would get away from the diffi- 
culty of merely testing the cable at one place, and that is 
immediately above the skip itselfo 

To give this matter impartial consideration and to 
bring into the whole problem fresh minds we cast about for 
some days to determine what was the proper thing to do. 
We finally turned to the Engineering Department of the Uni- 
versity of Toronto, and we have asked a committee headed by 
Dean Young to act in the matter of the investigation of the 
whole thingo The reference that Dean Young and his 


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- 325 - 2-S6-45 

Uto Frost 

committee have been given is quite broad, and, to be 
quite frank, we left off tbat committee any mining men 
at all, for the reason that they have been dealing with 
the problem and we wanted a Jury of fresh minds to look 
into the matter from the scientific standpoint <> We have 
asked Dean Young's committee to investigate these matterso 

(1) The cause or causes of the accident o That 
may be a matter that will not require any investigationo 
It may be crystal clear when the inquest is heldo 

(2) The practicability of devising improved 
methods of inspection for the purpose of disclosing any 
weakness of a hoisting rope or its attachments, or any 
defects in the hoisting machinery. Now that is something 
that obviously this committee can look into and look into 
very thoroughly <> 

(3) The practicability of devising safety devices 
that would effectively arrest the drop of a cage or skip, 
if the supporting rope should break or slip, or the 
hoisting machinery should get out of control. 

(4) The possibility of improving existing regu- 
lations pertaining to the safety of operation of mining 

The committee, as I stated » Mr. Speaker, is under 

Doctor Young, Dean of Engineering at the University of 

Toronto, and consists of: 

Professor To Ro Loudon, head of the 

Department of Civil Engineering 

Professor Eo Ao Allcut, head of the 

Department of Mechanical Engineering 

Professor Vo Go Smith, of the Department 
of Electrical Engineering, and 

Professor Lloyd Mo Pidgeon, head of the 
Department of Metallurgical 

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- 326 - 2-26-45 

MTp Frost 

Mpo Speaker, that ia about all of the information 
that I can give at the present time, and I simply desire 
to reiterate what I have said, tliat there is not anything 
that we will not do in connection with this matter of 
looking into improved methods of inspection and improved 
safety devices, and I say to hon. members of this House, 
if any of you want to give us any information or have any 
suggestion that you feel would help us we would be glad 
to have ito I think the Deputy Minister of Mines is here; 
if you want to see him or see myself at any time, come 

MR. WILLIAM J. GRUMMETT (Cochrane South): I beg 
to congratulate the Minister of Mines (Mr. Frost) on his 
very full explanation of this pointo I do not believe 
I would be right, Mro Speaker, in discussing this accidanto 
I do not wish to infringe on the rights of the inquest, and 
I only hope that later on the Minister will allow us to 
discuss this whole question after the inquest has disposed 
of the matter. We can then discuss the whole question, 
and perhaps we can arrive at some conclusion which would 
prevent an accident of this nature in the future* The 
Minister has pointed out many angles that have occurred 
to some of us, and I am sure we are willing and ready 
to cooperate with him in preventing accidents of this 
nature, and as soon as the inquest is over we shall cer- 
tainly contact the Minister and discuss it,, 

MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day, 

MR, DREW: First order o 

CLERK OF THE HOUSE t First order, third reading of 
Bill NOo 25, "An Act to provide for the Voting of Active 
Service Voters at a General Election to the Assembly o* 

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- 327 - 2-26-45 

Mr. Blackwell 

HON. LESLIE E. BLACKWELL (Attorney General): Mr. 
Speaker, I move that Bill Noo 25, "An Act to provide for 
the Voting of Active Service Voters at a General Election 
to the Assembly," be now read for the third time. 

Motion agreed to and bill read the third time* 

HON. GEORGE A. DREW (Prime Minister): Order No» 5. 
Mr. Speaker, I move that you dc now leave the chair and the 
House resolve itself into Committee of the Whole to consider 
certain billso 

Motion agreed tOo 

The House in Committee: Mr. Reynolds in the chair. 

CLERK OF THE HOUSE: The House in Committee on 
Bill Noo 26, "An Act to amend the Mental Hospitals Act.* 

Sectidns 1 and 2 agreed tOo 

MR. DREW: Order Noo 6. 

CLERK OF THE HOUSE: Sixth order. House in Com- 
mittee on Bill No, 27, "An Act to amend the Children*3 
Protection Acto* 

MR. WILLIAM DENNI30N (St. David): Mr. Chairman, 
I would like to draw the attention of hon. members to this 
amendment which in effect rather weakens the authority of 
social workers. It deprives them of the authority they 
previously had regarding the well-being of a child who 
might be neglected. In other words, before this is passed 
the Act as it now stands would allow any social worker, for 
instance, to require parents to look after the well-being 
of a child and any nurse or, I suppose, the superintendent 
of any Children's Aid. At the present time we are taking 
away from those people that responsibility they previously had 
and we are putting that responsibility solely on a physician. 

Now, a physician might not in the first instance 
know the case. Physicians very seldom in the larger cities -• 


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- 328 - 2-26-45 

Mro Dennison 

— in the smaller places they do perhaps -- but in the 
larger places it is the social worker or the minister or 
someone who knows whether a child is being neglected, 
Mow, previous to that, that parent would have been pre- 
sumed to have been neglecting their child if they refused 
to have proper medical attention or look after the well- 
being of the child when it was brought to their attention 
by a social worker o This may not be the case, I may 
be wrong in that interpretation of the statute. But 
in reading the two statutes and comparing them it seems 
to me this amendment weakens rather than strengthens the 
protection we are going to give the children, 

HON, R. P. VIVIAN (Minister of Public Welfare): 
I think the point of the hon, member is well taken but I 
would like to direct his attention to the Act itself* 

MR, DENNISON: It is on page 4153, section 7, 
MR. VIVIAN: The purpose of thia amendment i8 
to define more accurately than occurs in the present Act 
"neglected child** and I would refer the hon, member to 
section 7 regarding "apprehension of neglected children,'* 


Thia proposed amendment has to deal with effective methods 
of dealing with problems of this sort, and I think you will 
find in that first section of Paragraph (J) from 1 down. 
Nothing has been done in this amendment which would take 
away from those people that right or privilege but 
when it comes to the proposed amendment "competent author- 
ity" as at present in the Act is insufficiently clear for 
a Judge to make a proper decision regarding a problem of 
communicable disease and, Mr. Chairman, I do not think 
the hon. member (Mr, Dennison) is suggesting that any 
welfare agency is competent to judge whether or not it 
is a communicable disease. I think perhaps that is 


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- 329 - 3-26-45 

Mr» Vivian 

tlie pointo 

MR. E. B. J0LLIFF3 (Leader of the Opposition): 
There is a further point which might help to clear up the 
matter. The effect of the change really is that the words 
which previously read •ordered by competent authority* 
become now *when recommended by a duly qualified medical 
practitioner.* I believe that is correct. I take it, 
therefore, that the department's difficulty has been with 
the words "ordered by competent authority* and I would like 
the Minister to tell us just in practice what those words 
do mean "when ordered by competent authority.* I think 
it is clear what the new amendment means. He might tell 
us how the old words worked and what difficulty was 

MR. VIVIAN: It is a difference of interpretation. 
There are certain sections of the province in which it is 
possible to secure proper attention for neglected children 
who have been excluded from school because of communicable 
disease, neglected by parents and brought into court i ^C 
in which the judge has ordered that proper attention be 
given to them, and that attention has been given. But in 
the City of Toronto there seems to be some difficulty in - 
interpretation of what is meant by "competent authority* 
and this is inserted to assist the City of Toronto and 
others to be able to decide what is *oompetent authority* 
and as far as communicable diseases are concerned we 
believe competent medical authority is competent authority. 

Sections 1 and 2 agreed tOo 

Bill reperted. 

MR. DREW: Order No, 7, 

CLERK OF THE HOUSE: Seventh order, "Bill No. 28, 


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- 330 - 2-26-45 

*An Act to amend the Territorial Districts Acto* 

THE CHA-IRMAN: Shall clause 1 form part of the bill? 

MR. BERTRAM E. LEAVENS (Woodbine): If the Minister 
will explain this — the other day in explaining it he had 
two interpretatioAa which rather got me mixed up before he 
got through, I would like him to explain the whole thing 
to me again, 

HON, WESLEY &, THOMPSON (Minister of Lands and 
Forests): Mr, Chairman, I will try and repeat and make 
myself more clear. In 1899 the Township of Coffin and 
Coffin-additional were changed to Aberdeen but at that 
time n» mention was made of Aberdeen-additional, and this 
is clarifying Aberdeen-additional to straighten out some 
difficulties in sending out tax billso 

MR. LEAVENS: I wish to apologize to the hon. 
Ministero I was thinking of the other, 

MR. W. LYNN MILLER (Algoma-Manitoulin) : I might 
say the township referred to happens to come within the 
glorious riding of Algoma-Manitoulin, and I do not think 
the CCF will have anything to do with it. 

Bill reported. 

MR. DREW: Order No. 8. 

CLERK OF THE HOUSE: Order NOo 8, Bill No. 29, 
•An Act to amend the Surveys Act," Mr. Thompson. 

MR, LEAVENS: I might say that that was the one 
I was confused on. 

THE CHAIRMAN: Shall section 1 form part of the 

MR. ARTHUR A. CASSELMAN{Nipissing) : I think, Mr. 
Chairman, if the hon. Minister in charge of this bill would 
give a little lecture on this astronomic course, probably we 


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- 331 - 2-26-45 


could all understand the bill, but I think the bill is 
quite cleaPa 

MR. GEORGE I. HARVEY (Sault Ste<, Marie): The only 
thing I could suggest is that in re-surveying properties, my 
only hope is that this amendment to the Act will not in any 
way change the physical assets of the property. That is 
my understanding, 

MR. THOMPSON: It cannot o 

MR. E. B. JOLLIFFE (Leader of the Opposition): 
That is not what has been clearly explained to some hon. 
members of this House, at leasts What they have been given 
to understand so far is that the bill will make some changes 
in the survey lines, but it does not make any difference. 

MR. THOMPSON: This only applies where the lines 
have never been run. That is why it does not change any 
property of any individual. 

MR. JOLLIFFE: No existing rights affected? 

MR. THO^IPSON: Right. 

Sections 1 and 2 agreed to. 

Bill reported. 

MR. DREW: I move that the Committee do now rise 
and report certain Bills., 

Motion agreed to. 

The House resumed: Mr. Speaker in the chair. 

MR. WALTER B. REYNOLDS (Leeds): Mr, Speaker, the 
Committee of the Souse begs to report certain bills. 

Motion agreed tOo 

MR. DREW: Order No» 9» 

CLERK OF THE HOUSE: Llinth order, second reading of 
Bill NOo 30, •The Voters' List Act, 1945,* Mr. Blackwell. 

HON. LESLIE E. BLACKV-'ELL (Attorney General): Mr. 




"iD -ret* 



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- 332 - 2-26-45 


Spealter, before proceeding with the second reading of 
Item Noo 9, "The Vcters' Liat Act, 1945,* I would indicate 
to the House that that bill and the succeeding bill have 
been printed and in the books ever the weekend, Thi» 
bill and the succeeding bill represent legislation to 
implement principles recommended by the Select Committee 
on the Election Acto If, however, the Leader of the 
Opposition or for that matter any other group in the House 
feel that there has not been time to give consideration 
to Acta of that length and would wish the second readings 
postponed until the next day, I would be quite prepared to 
do so. If, on the other hand, the House is ready for 
the second reading, I am quite prepared to move them. 

MR. E. B. JOLLIFFE (Leader of the Opposition): 
Well, I do not think we have any objection, as far as this 
bill is concerned, to proceeding with the second reading. 
I assume he will be speaking on it at some length and I 
know there are some hon. members who wish also to speak 
on ito If that is so, it may be necessary to adjourn 
the debate. I am not suggesting there is going to be 
great controversy about it, but there are some things I 
think ought to be said on second reading. I would suggest 
that the Attorney General move the second reading. 

MR. BLACKWELL: Mr. Speaker, I quite appreciate that 
some hon. members of the House may have a substantial amount 
to say on second reading. My only thought was that some 
of the hon, members had not an opportunity to adequately 
examine the bill* I wish to make clear if the hon<> members 
felt that they had not an opportunity to adequately examine 
the bill, I did not wish to precipitate the debate* 

Mr. Speaker, quite contrary to the expectation of 

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- 335 - 2-26-45 


the hon. Leader of the Opposition, in so far as I am 
concerned I do not propose to make a lengthy speech on 
the principles of The Voters* List Act, 19456 For me 
to do so would, in my view, exhaust the patience of the 
House o Sufficient for me to say that the report of the 
select committee, of which I was chairman when it report- 
ed, came to certain conclusions and make unanimous recom- 
mendations on those conclusionso As a result, the Govern- 
ment, through myself as responsible minister in the matter, 
has seen fit to introduce legislation termed "The Voters* 
List Act, 1945," which, according to the view of the 
Government, implements the recommendations unanimously 
made by the committee » The principles of what is recom- 
mended by the committee are fully set out in the report 
and for me to simply review what no doubt every hon. member 
of the Legislature has by now read would be tedious. It 
may be that there are some hoh» members who are in disagree- 
ment with those principles and who wish to debate them but 
that, of course, is open to them, but so far as I am con- 
cerned as a member of the Government, I now move that The 
Voters' List Act, 1945, be now read the second time, 

MR. WILLIAM DENNISON (St. David): In speaking to 
the principle of this bill, I want to say that the group 
representing all sides of the House, who met and spent many 
days going over these bills, did a very good job. I believe 
that if these bills are passed Ontario will have perhaps the 
best voters' lists legislation we have had for many years. 
I was sorry, however, during the sittings, or when we dis- 
cussed these bills, that we did not admit the public or 
the press. The first meeting we held I recall it was the 
hon. member for Bellwoods (Mr. MacLeod) and the hon. 

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- 334 - 2-26-45 


Provincial Treasurer (Mro Fr»st) who made a motion that 
we issue a statement from time t© time rather than admit- 
ting the public or the press, and that carried, over my 
opposition. I d« not say that the Voters' list Act> 
as we have now drawn it, is the last word, because I be- 
lieve had we allowed the public to sit in — it has been 
my experience in matters of this kind that if you let the 
public sit in, if you give the widest possible attention 
in the press to these matters, you get ideas sent in by 
the general public of reforms of the subject matter under 
discussion* • So that while I think we have accomplished 
a good deal, there may be many objections we would have 
had and many suggestions we would have had from the 
general public had we been able to give them a greater 
opportunity of knowing what was going on in the mind of 
the committee from time to time, as we did in that Lignite 
Committee, for instance, where we did get plenty of such 
suggestions from the general publico 

I make this suggestion now, that in future I 
believe select committees of this House should be wide 
open to the public and to the press. 

Now, there were suggestions I made which would 
have altered the principle of this bill and I want to 
bring these to the attention of the House so that when — 

MR. BIACKWELL: Before the hon. member for St. 
David (Mr. Dennison) proceeds, I would like to make a 
point of order, if I might. The fact of the matter is, 
Mr. Speaker, that the remarks that the hon. member for 
St. David (Mr, Dennison) has so far directed to the House 
have not the slightest thing to do with the principle of 
this billo They are directed to the presentation of an 

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- 335 - 2-26-45 

Mr » Black we 11 

entirely personal view — that the public should have 
been generally admitted to the hearings of the committee. 
That has no relation whatever to the principles of the 
^ill under discussion,, 

MR. RIGG3: He is leading up to that, 

MR. BLACKWELL: If the hon. member had anything 
worthwhile to direct to me , I would be pleased to have it. 
Now that the hon, member for 3t. David has, quite out of 
©rder, made a statement as to his personal views, I, as 
chairman of the committee, should like to say on the 
point of order that the consensus of opinion of the 
members of the committee was that the public should not 
be present at these hearings, was a unanimous decision, 
with the exception of one minority vote, and that de- 
cision Was reached for the obvious reason that it was 
the desire of all the members of the committee that they 
should be perfectly free to think out loud and speak out 
loud -- 

MR. LEAVENS: What is the point of order? 

MR. oPEAKER: I have the point of order. 

MR. LEAVENS: As I understand, on a point of 
order, a member is not allowed to make a speech. 

MR. BLACKWELL: I am ©n the point of order, and 
am first dealing with the out of order remarks of the hon. 
member for 3t, David,, 

MR. SPEAKER: I think I can settle this — 

MR. BLACKWELL: I am just about through, Mr. 
Speaker o 

MR. SPEAKER: Just a minute, please, I appeal 
to every hon. member of the House. Let us cooperate fully 
as we did last week. May I say to the hon. member for 
St. David that it is quite improper to reflect upon the 

3WJ!o C 


6 X ij 'J 

J-—- I 



- 336 - 2-26-45 


actions of the House in regard to any former decision. 
If there is any objection to take as to the manner in 
which the committee was conducted, the proper time is 
then the report is presented. Let us get on to a dis- 
cussion of the bill, and never mind what happened in 

MR. JOLLIFFE; I would like to sui^gest this, 
I think the hon<> member for Sto David (Mr. Dennison) was 
moving on to a different point, but I would point out 
that when the hon. Attorney General (MroBlackwell) w^s 
introducing the report of the committee he made a sug- 
gestion which I thought was a good one, that we should 
deal first with the bill;, and- if there then remained 
anything to be said, one way or the other, about the 
report, that would be an appropriate time to say it. 

Now, when I say that was a "good suggestion," 
I have in mind that in discussing the bills themselves, 
there should necessarily be a certain amount of latitude. 
The committee is not sancrosanct, and while the remarks 
of the hon. member for St. David may not have been 
entirely addressed to the principle of the bill, I would 
like to see a little latitude allowed in this debate. 

MR. SPEAKER: I think I allowed that latitude 
in allowing the hon, member for St. David to make the 
statement. It was only for the benefit of the House that 
I made the statement I did; let us get on with the principle 
©f the billo 

MR. DENNISON: Mr. Speaker, the hon. Attorney 
General raised the point of order, and succeeded in dis- 
cussing the question I raised in regard to whether or 
not we should have invited more opinions from the general 
public. I do not say that every one supported me, but 




B B^-n 


?in &?!- 

- 337 - 2-26-45 

Mr o Dennis on 

that was my opinion, and I still hold the opiniono 

I now want to draw the attention of the House t© 
the principle of this bill, or certain deficiencies in the 
principle of this billo It seems t© me that any bill pro- 
viding for voters' lists should recognize the principle 
adopted in other parts of the British Empire, that one man 
has a right to one vote and one vote onlyo I saw in the 
press the other day that in Great Britain they have now 
eliminated even the meagre restrictions they previously had 
on the right of a person to vote in civic elections, on the 
same basis as they do in their federal elections, so that 
in Great Britain, right now, the principle of *one man 
one vote** in that election applies whether that man is rich 
or whether that man is poor, and if this House intends to 
draw up a proper voters' list Act, I believe that is one 
fundamental principle this House must now decide. 

There was a time in Ontario when, in provincial 
elections, q man had to have a certain amount of wealth, 
property or worldly goods before he had the right to vote 
for a member of this Legislature o There was a great re- 
form took place in this province due to the effort of 
Loutt, Matthews and others in the early days of this pro- 
vince, and that reform established in provincial elections 
the right of every man to vote, with one exception , We 
still have a vestige of 1835 remaining on our statute books 
in this Voters' List Act, and I hope that will also be 
eliminated by the House at a later stage. We still make 
this exception, that persons who are living in a house of 
industry or a house of refuge, supported in part by muni- 
cipal funds, are denied the right to vote in this fair 
province of Ontario in this year of 1945, — in this year 

Q3 db WW . 

afim en 







- 338 - 2-26-45 

Mr. Dennlson 

when we are giving lip servioe to the principles of freedom, 
democracy and the ideals for which the United Nations are 
fighting on the battlefields of the world to-day. 

I think this House should take upon itself this 
session the task of wiping that blot from off the statute 
books of this fair province, and extend to every man and 
woman, regardless of their status in society, and the amount 
of their property or goods or chattels, which they may 
possess, the right to vote at all times in provincial 

I want to say that in civic elections, under 
this Voters' List Act, not only do we fail to recognize 
that principle but we go away beyond that in our injustice 
to democracy, and the principles of democracy. We say 
that in certain instances a man in the city which is 
organized on a ward principle shall have a vote in every 
ward in which he owns property. In the city of Toronto 
some men have, therefore, nine votes, because they own or 
rent property in each of the nine wards, and they may live 
in Forest Hill Village and they get their vote there just 
the same, making a total of ten votes on civic election day. 

MR. DUNBAR: Not for the same man. 

im. DENIJI30N: No, not for the same man; for differ- 
ent aldermen in different wards, but if you know the system 
we have for presenting plural votes for rrayor you will realize 
that a good 'many plural votes go in for mayor right across 
the line, and there is little we can do about it, as the hon. 
member, who has been in civic life, well knows. 

I would like to say that I consider that a vicious 
principle — a vicious principle. It is not even fair to 
the property owners, because I know of a property owner, 

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- 339 - 2-26-45 

Mpo Dennis on 

Alderman John Innes, in this city, who lives in the riding 
represented in this House by the Hon. Mro Blackwell, and 
he has nine properties in one ward and he gets but one vote. 
■A few years ago he succeeded in getting council to ask the 
Legislature to abolish this plural vote system, because, 
as he pointed out, why should he only have one vote while 
his neighbour who also owns nine properties, but happens 
to have them in nine different wards, has nine votes for 
nine different aldermen. 

That is a relic of the past, and it is an ex- 
pression of a principle which I believe is a wrong prin- 
ciple in the Voters' List Act, that property should be 
the measure of a man's ability to vote in any election. 
I believe we have outgrown that. If we have not, we 
should outgrow it at this session. We have an opportunity 
this year to outgrow it o 

Another principle I think we should establish in 
the provincial Voters' List Act, which is established in the 
civic voters' list act, is this: In the case of a civic 
election, if a voter happens to be left off the voters' 
list, inadvertently or otherwise, he does not thereby lose 
his right as a citizen to go before the returning officer 
or the revising officer and submit the names of people, 
including himself, who should be added to the list or should 
be taken off. He still has the right as a citizen to assure 
a proper voters' list, but in the Act that was presented 
to this House a provincial voter, if he is left off the 
voters' list, loses that right; he cannot go before a board 
and ask to have names taken off which should not be on, nor 
can he go before the board and ask that other names be 
added, which should not have been left off o He can only 

^ ?>.'.', !Jf*0 



- 340 - 2-26-45 


ask that he himself be put on the voters' list. 

It seems to me it should be the right of the voter 
to amend or correct the voters' list, and that that right 
belongs to any citizen who is entitled to be a voter. 

Iffi. DUNBAR: Pardon xne , Mr. Speaker; you know in 
the municipal Act there is power to place the names oil the 
list, but no power to remove a name. Therefore, we are 
offering an amendment this session to rectify that. 

MR. DENNISOK: Yes. There has been in the large 
municipalities power to remove a name. I think there are 
three distinct forms given, one for the name to be added, 
one for names that have been misspelled, and one that names 
should be removedo There are three distinct forms in the 
larger cities. 

MR. DUNBAR: No power to remove it, unless he 
makes that reo^uest himself. A man could live in Ottawa 
and own property in Toronto, and sell it, and the pur- 
chaser would be entitled to a vote here and the man who 
sold the property could eome up here and also vote. 

im» JOLLIFFE: Mr. Speaker, I do not propose to 
speak at any length on this bill«» I merely wish to say 
that, in my opinion, the voters' lists Act here and now 
proposed represents a real improvement over the old legis- 
lation in many respects, and I am, therefore, in favour of 

I say that, notwithstanding the fact that I agree 
with many of the statements that have been made by the 
hon. member for 3t, David (Mr. Dennison), 

However, the bill upon which agreement was reached 
in the select committee does improve our present machinery 
for assuring correct and adequqte voters' lists at election 


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berfosflri ■ Epw j" nexus 9«i5ijs rfolriv 

- 341 - 2-26-45 

Mr. Jolliffe 

time. It may be in these modern times people do not 
appreciate just how important it is that voters' lists 
should be reasonably correct, or they may have found out 
how important it is, in the general election of 1943. 
I should like to remind the House, however, of an exper- 
ience which some citizens in a neighbouring province had 
seventy or eighty years ago, when it was alleged that 
during a certain election in our neighbouring province a 
large number of people, long since dead, had been placed 
on the voters' list and had actually voted during the 

There was an exhaustive investigation, and it 
was found that amongst many historic figures who not only 
appeared on the voters' list but who had actually turned 
out on election day and voted, there were Napoleon 
Bonaparte, Marie Antoinette, Julius Caesar and, of all 
people, Judas Iscariat, who appeared on the voters' list 
and had been actually recorded as voting on election day. 

I think the experience on that occasion only 
illustrates how important it is that the proper machinery 
should be provided to assure a complete and correct 
voters' list. 

Motion agreed to and bill read the second time. 

MR. DREW: Order No. 10 

CLERK OF THE HOUSES: Tenth, order, second reading 
of Bill No. 31, "The Elections Act, 1945, •• Mr. Blackwell. 

MR. BLACKWELL: Mr. Speaker, I presume that the 
hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Jolliffe) has the same 
attitude with regard to Bill 31, that he feels he has had 
an opportunity to consider it? 

toa Ob 

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- 342 - 2-26-45 


¥R. JOLLIFFE: Mr, Speaker, I do not know that 
it is quite fair for me to express an opinion on it. 
After all, I was a member of the select committee. Most 
hon. members of the House were not. I hesitate to 
express an opinion about whether we ought to go ahead 
with second reading at this time. I know that one 
of two hon. members have intimated to me they should 
like a little more time to consider such an important 

4 MR. DREW: In that case, we will withdraw 
second reading of Bill No. 31. 

Bill stands. 

liR. DREW: Order No. 11. 

CLERK OF TH3 H0U3E: The eleventh order; second 
reading of Bill No. 32, "An Act to amend the Counties* 
Reforestation Act," Mr. Thompson. 

HON. WESLEY G. THOIvaPSON (Minister of Lands and 
Fcrests): Mr. Speaker, at the present time townships and 
districts which have not county organizations have authority 
to enter into an agreement with the Department with regard 
to reforestation. 

Townships where we have county organizations are 
not permitted to enter into these agreements, and the pur- 
pose of this bill is to extend that authority to those 

I move second reading of the bill. 

MR. OLIVER: May I ask the hon. minister if there 
have been many inquiries from tov.'nships with regard to this 

MR. TH0I.1P30N: Quite a number. 

MR. JOLLIFFE: The legislation will extend to the 


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siir «de 

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- 343 - 2-26-45 


whole province, hereafter? 

I\!R. THOMPSON: Yes, it will. 

MR. DENNISCK: Mr. Speaker, I would like to sug- 
gest that perhaps the hon. Minister might v.'iden the scope 
of this bill, not necessarily limiting it to a certain 
group of municipal hO'. ies, but allowing any municipality 
to do what this bill allows. I have in mind the knowledge 
of certain cities in the United States, end 1 believe in 
Great Britain and other countries, where the cities, al- 
though you may think they have no interest in reforesta- 
tion, have purchased large blocks of land outside their 
boundaries and have entered into qi^ite an extensive refor- 
estation plan for the purpose of recreational facilities 
for the citizens of those cities, and to provide municipal 
forest areas for the cities. I would make that sugges- 
tion to the hon,. Minister, if he would accept it. 

HON. GEORGE H. DUI^MR (Minister of Municipal 
Affairs): That would have to be looked after by an amend- 
ment to the Municipal Act, and it is under consideration at 
the present time. Many municirialit ies have approached me 
for permission to enter into reforestation. 

MRS. RAE M. LUCKOGK (Bracondale ) : I would like 
to ask the hon. Minister (Mr. Thompson) a question. I 
was listening recently to a broadcast concerning conaitions 
in Sweden and I heard the speaker say that in Sweden v/hen a 
tree is cut down by anyone they have to replace it. I 
saaetimes am rather worried about our forests. Even at 
Christmas time I am worried about these trees being wasted, 
and that is one angle I wish to mention. 

I wonder if the hon. Minister would consider some 
way in which a law could be brought in whereby people who 
cut dovm trees must replace thegi. 


- .344 - 2-26-45 

MR, SPEAKER; Does the hon» Minister care to 
answer the question? 

MR> THOMPSON: Mr. Speaker, the question raised 
by the hon. member for Bracondale (Mrs. Luckock) is being 
given some consideration at the present time, and I would 
rather not comment on that until the report of the 
Agriculture Corairiittee has been tabled in the House, 

Motion agreed to and bill read the second time. 

MR. DRI£?7: Order No. 12. 

CLERK OF TIIR H0U3S: Twelfth order: second reading 
of Bill Noc 33, "An Act to amend the Crown Timber Act,»* 
Mro Thompson.. 

HON. WESLEY G. THOMPSON (Minister of Lands and 
Forests)? Mr-. Speaker, in moving second reading of Bill 
Noo 33, "An Act to amend the Crown Timber Act," the word 
"merchantable'* is left out of section 1 to simplify matters, 
in that the crown would not have to prove whether the lumber 
was merchantable or not. 

In section 2 the purpose of this change is to make 
it possible for the Department to deal immediately with all 
trespass cases, without having to take them into the courts. 
This authority would be granted to the Minister, without 
referring these small trespass cases to the courts. 

Iffio THOMAS P. MURRAY (Renfrew South): This bill 
is rather hard for me to understand. You perhaps know that 
1 claim the right, with all due respect to hon. members, 
including the hon» member for Peterborough (Mr, Scott) of 
having more fundamental knowledge concerning lumber than 
any man in this House. That is, amongst the bushmen and 
the trees, IVhen I am here amongst men, of course, it is 
different. I s onetimes got balled up. 

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- 345 - 2-26-45 

Mr., Murray 

I notice here, in the explanatory notes, it says 
where there is going to be two per cent of the timber dues 
taken off the timber cut on road allowances , given to the 
municipalities to improve the roads. 

Kow, I do not see any part of the bill where that 
is mentioned o However^ I would like to know how they are 
going to find out in a wild 'j^ountry; where the lines are not 
opened up, just how much timber Ja going to be cut on these 
roads. iVe are lumbering in the county of Ileyton, an 
organized territory, and there are many proven lines and 
concession lines which run throuc^h \;be limits, and natural- 
ly we cut on them., I think it assi to be the rule years 
ago that all the timber dues that came off timber cut on 
the road allowances was turned into the municipality. I 
do not know just why this rule was abolished, or the Act 

I see here, tooc, where you are going to charge 
timber thieves, as I call them, a fee of $15 a tree. Of 
course, when they pay this, they will have no right to the 
timber. If that clause was not there, I would say that 
the charge should be more than $15 a tree, because you can 
go out and cut trees which are worth |50 a tree, even in the 
country where part of the timber has been cut over several 

I would like an explanation as to just what this 
two per cent means o It seems to me very small, if I unde3>- 
stand it correctly o I think the whole hundred per cent of 
the timber cut on road allowances should be turned over 
to the municipalities o A.s you know, we are l\;imbering In 
municipalities where we require roads, -and we often ask the 
government, in our municinal councils, to help us provide 
roads to the different mill sites and camp sites, and some- 



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- 346 - 2-26-45 

Mr. Murray 

times we do get assistance, and this part of the bill would 
be all right then, and I am in favour of it. But I do think 
the whole one hundred per cent should be given to the 
municipalities o How will you find the amount of trees 
that are cut? If you go into an old bush, you can trace 
the old blazes made there eighty or one hundred years ago, 
if you are a good timber cruiser;, and I suppose the govern- 
ment scalers will have to determine just what trees are 
cut on these road allowances ^ and naturally that will 
cost quite a lot of money o 

The money does not amount to a lot, because the 
hon. Minister can afterwards reduce the amount under $15 a 
tree, if he wishes to do so^ and turn the lumber over to 
the men whom we call "timber thieves <>• You know, there 
is a lot of that being done yeto 

MR. SCOTT: Not in Peterborough County. 

MR. MURRAY: It used to be done in a great many 
places, and large amounts of timber would disappear. 

I have to admit that great progress has been 
made, and lately we have been bringing these fellows to 

I do not want to delay the House, but this is 
my pet hobby, and I thought I would get going on it. As 
I said in the first place, some of the university language 
we find in these bills I do not understand as well as I 
would the shantymen's language, and, therefore, I have to 
go down to the Department of Lands and Fcrests and take the 
matter up with the proper officials, who are very kind to 
me. I took the Surveyors' Act up, and I found it was going 
to be of benefit to the settlers in these municipalities 
mentioned in the bill, and I suppose now I will have to go 

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- 347 - 2-26-45 

Mr. Murray 

in to-morrow morning and see some of my friends in the Lands 
and Forests Department, and we will discuss this thing. I 
should have done it before this, but the bill was only- 
brought down lately. 

I am in favour of all the timber dues for timber 
out on the road allowances being turned over to the municipali- 
ties. iVs far as the $15 for a tree that is stolen, it is 
quite all right; because it says even if the amount is paid, 
it is like a fine, he does not own the timber that comes out 
of that treeo I understand it that way, at least, and that 
is all right. But the agent of the government, or the 
department, has a right to make a bargain with these men who 
started out with the wrong intentions, and if they think 
they have made mistakes they can sell him the lumber at what 
they believe is a fair priceo If that clause were not 
there — if a man were paying $15 for a tree, and then 
owning the lumber, it would not be enough, because I can 
take hon, members through my own timber limits and can 
show them pine trees worth ;|75 for the lumber that comes 
from them, and that country was cut over nearly fifty 
years ago. The same applies to birch and oak and maple, 
which are very valuable at the present time, and ^15 would 
not be enougho But, considering he does not own the lumber 
after he has paid the fine, of course » it is all right. 

MR. ROBIIBON (Waterloo South): Mr. Speaker, I 
would like to ask the hon. Minister (Mr, Thompson) if the 
general effect of this bill is not to deprive individuals 
of some of their rights in the courts which, incidentally, 
is contrary to point No. 17 o 

MR. STANLEY J. HUNT (Renfrew North): Mr. Speaker, 
I would like to endorse what the hon. member for South 
Renfrew said with respect to remitting to the municipalities 

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- S48 - 2-26-45 

Mr, Hunt 

the crown timber dues collected for timber cut on road 
allowance?, and I think the Department of Lands and Forests 
might give some consideration to the suggestion offered 
by the hon. member for Renfrew South (Mr, Murray). 

In 3outh Renfrew and in North Renfrew both we 
have municipalities where the population is very scattered. 
In the township of Fraser, in which I live^ less than fifty 
per cent of the road allowances has been cleared.. Now, 
somebody approaches the crown land agent and gets a cutting 
permit to cut the timber on certain road allowances, and 
they take only the timber, and all the brushing and clearing 
is left to the municipalities, assisted by the Department of 
Highways, and it throws an undue burden on the municipality, 
especially where the settlers are so scattered. 

I think the. local municipality should be entitled 
to have remitted to it the total amount of crown timber dues 
received for timber cut on these road allowances, to assist 
in opening up any of these roads which may be asked for by 
the local council, I would suggest that the Department 
of Lands and Forests give due consideration to the sug- 
gestion of the hono member for South Renfrew, 

MR. ROY SMITH (Parry Sound): Mr. Speaker, I would 
like to endorse what the two hon, members who have just 
spoken have said. Nowadays, a lot of our timbering is 
done by small, portable mills, and a great many more logs 
are hauled on trucks than are driven down a lot of the 
smaller rivers, and I want to endorse what the two previous 
speakers have said. The counties and townships are called 
upon to build roads for these lumbering concerns, and I think 
it is only fair that thp one hundred per cent of the amount 
of dues paid for this timber should be remitted to the 

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beXJij: I .eri* :Inlrid X 

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*»i3«ft oo ,89onewoXIe osot: ©eeri?' ho tuo 'lodmlt tol bevleasi 

inemJi ©qea exlJ J-ailJ^ JessguE r»j loawoo XaooX ©dj^ 

-8i;a ©rf? OCT not*eT:©&|prroo • /is e^apno^ 6n to 

biuow I ,1' .tTfl^) YOfl .m 

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aX saii&aoiXv 0,0 j. b ^z^fiOBwo^:. «btR& ovbiI aejloqa 

,esoX ©^oin "^am Je* yae <aXXXin ©Xcfs;fapq ^XXaoe '^cd ono5 

of(;j- tn .tof ^- nsvlTb e-re nsrfi' 83{O0icf to ftaXusri oia 

euoivaiq ow- <>£;a6 oJ jflijw X fans ^aiavxi -ioxxB/na 

•baXXao aia eqXileflwod- bna 8©Xd-ai;oo ©rPF .bXae ©vail aa©iaa»q8 

.3{tiid* I bfl£ ^amaonoo snitadim.'f sEari;t -rot eSsot bXlucf o;t nocTt/ 

tauoaa et. tii©o loq £>«aficiJ£l auo o/iJ j^jxiJ ixai y^'^^c ex jx 

wi;r .tJXinei ©cf JbXtfoxfe i©ditti;f eiri^f lol blaq 8©iib lo 


- 349 - 2-26-45 

Mto Thompson 

MR, THOMPSON: I oan plainly see where the lumber- 
men and the Department of Lands and Forests are going to get 
along fine from now on, since we have the lumbermen advocating 
higher prices than the Department has been chargingo I am 
sure that we will be very close friends^ 

With regard to this trespass matter, this only 
applies in the smaller eaaeso All the large cases are taken 
before the courts « 

Regarding the mo.'iey received frpra the so road 
allowances, I want to be frank and admit that these are the 
first representations which have been brought to me that 
the dues should go one hundred per cont to the municipali- 
ties from trees cut on road allowances o This amendment 
was brought in because only two per ce2it of the dues was 
going to the municlpelitieso Bute, out of forty-one 
municipalities, the total amount for one year was $738, 
or an average of |18 to each municipality* 

The accounting, in keeping track of those trees, 
where they were cut in the municipality, was costing con- 
siderably more than that. They run all the way from five 
dollars — there is one of them up into a hundred and 
twenty-six dollars, and that was the reason this bill 
was brought in, and I am not prepared to discuss whether 
one hundred per cent of the^ dues made on the road allow- 
ances should go to the municipality, because this is the 
first representation made to me along these lines, 

MR, MITCHELL t Might I ask the hon. Minister of 
Highways a question? What is the usual grant toward the 
municipality being involved iu a development of this kind? 

HON, G, H. DOUOETT (Minister of Highways): It 
would all depend in what section he was. The minimum would 
be fifty per cent, and in certain cases we handle as high 

aoeqaoffT oiU 

« e*£ 

^ss ot snioa cma eocene 

OS I "---"srio n9»d - - 

aexBS fie eeeso ©s'S'Si- »- 
cTertJ em 

-aoo saxJBOo saw 

9Si;i e 

f.eiti C e-p 


•ft J iirf cn..f 

uJifiqeCl Bdi ban atm 
Tt snll snoXa 

W * fill J Oti/B 

-it fll eeiXqqa 
joo erf J eiotod 

a;raeeoi(rarr tfcitil 

;tri3JJ0id earn 

ft o;t Sfl^oS 

itiw iLaqtoiava 

©gsievfl ac to 

t.w xf^rf^ eiadw 

. - e.iflllob 

-.11 frisuoid eew 

• ■ " ^fi-^^^uA ©rto 

a 5IiJCile eeoas 

aitneaaiqea ieiil 

bluoa mjoitalm. exlT ^^an ed 


"■ 350 - 2-26-45 

Mr. Doucett 

as eighty per cento 

I think the hon. Minister of Lands and Forests 
(Mr. Thompson) is to be congratulated on this change. If 
the municipality is in among one of these lumbering sec- 
tions, they might get eighty per cent of the road, so 
they would hardly be encitled to the tiraber and the 
eighty per cent grant, as wello 

Motion agreed to bill read the second time. 

MR, DREW: Ordar Noo 13 o 

CLERK -F THE HOUSE i Second reading of Bill No. 34, 
"An Act respeefcing Foreac Kngineersg* Mr, Thompson. 

HOJL IVEoLEY Go TnOMPSON {Minister of Lands and 
Forests) s MTo Speaker .> In moving aecond reading of this 
bill I would like to explain that this Act provides for the 
establishment of a boar«i of examiners in forestry and for 
the registration of forest; eiogineerso "Fareatry* is de- 
fined and while the bill does not prohibit the practice 
of forestry by any class of persons, it restricts the 
use of the title "forest engineer" to persons registered 
under the Acto The riglit to use the courts for the 
recovery of accounts for services which fall within the 
definition of "forestry" is limited to forest engineers 
registered under the Acto I move second reading. 

MR. GEORGE I. IlARVEY (Sault Ste . Marie): Mr. 
Speaker, It might be apparent we have forest engineers 
working in private industryj or so-called forestry engi- 
neers. In view of that fact, it might be suggested 
that this bill should come under the Professional 
Engineers' Act and not become a separate bill to take 
care of the forest engineers^ 

MR. Fo TTo. WARREN (Hamilton-Wentworth) : Might I 


,fs za 




*rtc r 

•d;f 10'J a© 



i- ■ 


- 351 - 2-S6-45 

Mr. Warren 

suggest to the hon . Minister (Mr. Thompson) that he use 
the initials "FoE."* to indicate the forest engineers, and 
the initials "CE.** for civil engineers, and that would 
give them a distinction. 

I.:R. CYRIL OVERALL (Niagara Falls): I would like 
to make the same observation on this particular bill, I 
happen to have the honour, along with the hon. member for 
London (L^r. VJebster), of being a professional engineer^ 
and I think, properly speaking, this bill should be under 
the Professional Engineers' Act. 

I notice you have here that there shall be a board 
which shall be composed of five persons wko shall be 
appointed by the Lieutenant Governor in Council and the 
Lieutenant Governor in Council may appoint one of the 
members to be chairman. Under the Professional Engineers* 
Act we have five executive officers and three councillors, 
and under the Forest Engineers' Act we have chemical, 
mechanical, civil, electrical and mineral, and in time 
to come we shall probably have other branches of engineer- 
ing, as the subdivision of labour — we will have ceramic • 
and structural and aeronautical -- we have them now -- 
they are not registered under this Act — and administrative 
and oombustiono We had a combustion engineer with us on 
the lignite trip north, although that is not recognized 
under the Professional Engineers' Act. I think in time 
it will be. Under the Forest Engineers it will be re- 
stricted to persona registered under this Act. That is 
exactly the wording used in the Professional Engineers' 
Act. I would like to recommend that, as the forest 
engineers will be working with the pulp and paper mill 
companies, as wellas for the Government, they should come 

fienaW '.tU 

tebau^' 06^" bluQAB Hid eidJ iesqe ■'^fTer 

.3cA ' 

5li30 ' 

sricr ' ../^o ;?ixloqqe "^^ .laivoi) jaaneJi/eiJ 

,Xaoi iseai' 

c ■ 

• oiaQiei -'iw sv» - • 

evtiaiSBtnusiiim iw 
no 81/ (i*iw lesnlTifT 

3l , •■■■•■■ -' 

iXi-:n Tsqi - " ■ ' • ■ ■ ■"■> 

352 - 2-26-45 

Mr» Overall 

in the Code of Ethics such as laid out in the Engineers* 

Act. I will read one section, Just to illustrate: 

'•He shall not accept com- 
pensation, financial or otherwise, 
for a particular service from more 
than one source, except with the 
full knowledge and written consent 
of all interested parties^" 

That ifould mean this Code of Ethics would apply 
to forest engineers, and there would be no need to write 
another Code of Ethics or duplicate it for this special 

There may be some question as to the number of 
forest engineers.. Unlicensed forest angineers, I think 
you will agree, are very small » The nuiaber of mechanical 
engineers registered in the province of Ontario are aroun^ 
eight hundred and forty-^seven; civil, eight hundred and 
fifty-seven; electrical, eleven hundred and ninety- three ; 
mining, two hundred and ninety- three, with a maximum of 
three thousand, six hundred and thirty-six registered to- 
day in the forest engineers, which would approximate around 
two hundred unlicensedo 

It seems to me the logical place for that bill 
would be a branch of the Professional Engineers' Act, 
I would like to recommend the hon. Minister take into 
consideration the re-drawing of this bill, and put it 
in there as a separate Act, so the Administration would 
not be duplicated, and these men would perform the same 
Code of Ethics as laid out for all engineers in the pro- 

MR. J. B, 3ALSBERG (St, Andrew)? You will par- 
don me for speaking, Mro Speaker, on the question of for- 
estry, of which I know very little, I would like to ask 
a question of the hon. Minister, whether, for the sake of 

• sec 

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f Tcisur r V. rf^ 




u.i«i is ©ILL 

U D 01.' 


bnuoib eieatxoi 



juIB t 

-TRcjae 5 sfi 


- 353 - 2-26-46 

Mr, Sals berg 

clarity, it is understood that the registered engineer, 
whether it is chemistry or any other science, must neces- 
sarily be a graduate of a recognized university having a 
department studying that specific subject, ' That is, does 
the bill also call for or limit the granting of the degree 
to graduates only of -che physiology department, if such 
department exists in the university? 

I listened to the contributions made by the other 
hon. members, and I did not see how the comparison could 
be made» 

When engineers speak of their Act covering engineers, 
and this bill should be under the other Act, I know that else- 
where there are specific requirements which students must 
meet, under which they are entitled to use the degree. 
This means that the board will have authority to grant 
this title to anyone they consider fit and possessing of 
sufficient knowledge of forestry problems. Is that right? 

MR. 1E0MPS0N: Yes, 

MR. SALSBERGj If that is correct, I can under- 
stand why it should be a separate Act, rather than an 
appendix to the Professional Engineers' Act. 

Then I am not clear about this, how this Board 
will determine the qualifications of a person if he will 
not be a graduate of an existing school of forestry, if 
he will not have taken a course in Forestry, how will the 
Board determine whether one will be an expert or not? 
How do we know that there will be no favouritism? How 
do we know what qualifications will be required to receive 
this degree from the board, except such as the board it- 
self may set up? 

I think we have in the University of Toronto a 
department dealing with forestry. If that is the case. 

-eSoan Jei/flt ,don»loe. •x»4<^p..xafl .^o .Yi*«-tiBerio al ;fl iarf*«rfw 

e aniVBJl Y^lateviau ijestngooa-r a lo eiaubBT^ s ed xXiiaa 

eeot ,ai i'adT ' ,2-09iatte otlic-t " d^ ^j.^b>jj'-; .^laqeb 

aeiso^ 9rfJ lo 8nrt*flBTa«-sriJ eo oaifi Xlid; erf^ 

i-lotiE il , J-noiiii laqafc YscicleYric sfl; ^ S8;tBJj£. . 

ticJfeiQViiiii eflj ni sjexxe itaefflJiBqab 
•lariio eAi ^d abao enoiJudiUfloo .ad* o,t 6dna7etl I 

bluoo noeliBqinoo eff:^ wor' ese ..?on bib T fenB .aTadmem .nori 

.aDBOi i>d 
,«ie0hi:s«e aaliavoo :foA iJrari? lo slBaqa aTeonisne a^tH^ 

-aeX© ;teri* woa:i '!■ « ;toA isriJood* lebxiu ed ; Hid st... 

;teuai e;fflabi/^8 rioirim aJn^mailxip^i otlioeqe aifl eisd^ eiedw 
.astgab erf* aeu o3 baX^iffna eie \edi rfoirfw lebau ,*8afli 
iH&ts oi xttiodms ©TjBd iXln- bisod eri* isdi Baiea"' «^""^ 

lo sflieee«eoq bna ttt ^abieaoo >iedJ ono>tnB o^ eX;fJt^ nidi 

-'■■,'. i, 

?;»rfsli ;Jeri:r al .aaaXdoifl; -n^eariol lo asbeXwoni taeUtfiua 

-iabdtj nBO I j^o&tioo ei ;t8((J II ;i[)flSaEXA.8 .HM 

OB ABdi lediai ,JoA eianeqea b 96 BXt;orie.;rJ: y^w baB;fe 

.*oA 'ei^aalanS XflfloJteee': ■ ^ )p-..^rre 

bifioS fiiri* worf ,eiM;f ti/ods leaXo Jon ms I nan'i 

iXJt* '*d It noaiacr e lo axioiJBOilJXsi/p sdJ dninne^teb IXlw 

Vi *,^iir.Baial 1:. i oaoe -snl^aixe as lo 9;tsi/i)6-ig b sd ;tofl 

erf J X'Xi-* wGri ,tX*tiB9io'i ai fiaiuoo ,b na:lB* svsri ion XXiw ed 

jieoxe n r' ad ilivr ejao lari^tsrfw eniffl'ie;f8b biBoS 

woH ^jaauxtwovei ,<?ii :ad iiiw eiedt i^.iii woai sv? o5 woH 

&vi&&»^' 6i betlu^^Qi ^6 li.iiWrfaotlBOt'tlLBUp Ssfim voaoi ew ob 

-;f X • b^Bod- erij; ee !d?iyE ;*q,09X9 .biBod edt tuorr^ ©en^sab ztdi 

; 8E Y''^-^ iXee 
6 bttiO'toT-io \^it'iwi^U.94i,.$it, ayad ew ^inirf*. I 
^e-EBO'ed*. Bl- iikAi'Htl ...y^rj-aeiol , d;f Jtw .'Qailfi^b ifnafflttiBaeb 

- 354 - 2-26-45 

Mr. Sals berg 

why should we not merely grant this degree to persons 
who graduate from this faculty — either limit it to that 
or grant it to anyone who has worked in the forestry indus- 
try for a certain period of time. 

I would like some clarification if the hon. 
Minister will be good enough to make it. For instance, 
some hon. member who is dealing in lumber may come and 
secure this forestiy engineering degree, to which they may 
be no more entitled, and in many instances far less entitled, 
than a practical lumberman in our forests. We can quite 
visualize a number of lumber dealers getting it. But I 
cannot see any lumber jack getting it; and it seems to me 
that lumberjacks would be better entitled to it, unless 
the degree required is from a reoognissed school. 

MR. THOMPSON: Mr. Speaker, it is difficult for • 
me to understand some of these arguments. First of all, 
I am not a university graduate, and for that reason I am 
not prepared to say whether this Act should cane under 
the Professional Engineers • Act or not. But I do say 
that professional engineers do not deal with public 

It has been suggested here to limit this Act to 
graduates of universities. I think that is wrong and I 
am surprised at any member of this House advocating such 
a thing. 

MR. SALSBBRG: Mr. Speaker, I rise to a point 
of privilege on the limitation of this degree. I am 
the one who asked the question. I do not want to say 
who shall have a degree but I want to have it clarified. 
In fact, I thought I made it clear that I would favour 
lumberjacks; but I would like to know who would get it. 

-Si .t^eaiol edt ni baMtow eari orfir er ^J ;fi: ir-- 

,aoii'Z-di '; isXo amo8 ©Mil bluow I 

".obfijsl'efli TO"? f 9>iBm o;^ rigi/one f>oos «cf iliw iQ^tsl.illi 

.uaa Siuou ^ijf.: -i sc :Ieeb ei ...lis •^ssaeisai .noa umoa 

.bal^ti^fna Reel islaBOCflifEr. : ynfim at fans .i7el?id-n9 sTQ-ai on -f^rf 

&.SIU9 aao «*' .ajreeiol ici/o-ax aEaneciaiii ^iioxj-aaiq vc aaiijr 

1 tiM^ .^ i";fe8 BieXae lediCi/n s asiXeueiv 

aaeXaJJ .«'i o^* fiifti^riara* •^;»;t5'ad ad fiXiJow BTio^ilrtrdBul-ioiii 
,looAi>tt bssta^ooai betlupBi -to^^ab »c(i 

tXXfi lu ;r87il ,Banern.u^ia aaeti^ lo aflioa baai^i^kfiu oi 9m 

fits I xiQSaai tfaxf^ lol bna jOtf^By&Bis x^Xaieviau a ^on cis I 

lafeai; anoo bXuoile ^oA ^tii^ Tari^er^''' -«'» oj^ &aia(f#" ' ■ -^ri 

-gaa o5 I J0a .,*Oii tc t9kk »ei»e XBnoiBse'ioi'i »ii^ 

oiXdi/q lllTXir Xaaib *cft of; eiaenisff© XaflotaealQ^iq •;tBill» 

od^ ioA zlAi ita.lL ot ared &at&o3§i;a asad aeil ^Z 

V,, I'-oovba a4 ^.;' ''^n> ladlaiaa x^a *a fieeliqrura toM 

,;^attL^ a 
;thie(i a oi aaiT I .-lajleaqe .tit :Oaaa8.IA8 ,m 

late I -eftT^sy 3.tiJ to flotstaJiaiX ad* no aaaXXvjtiq Id 

^ac: oit ^a&K tois oib t .a0^4-880p all* fiasfaa odv eao (&d* 

• fiailtiaXo #1 ay-alt o* #«»» 1 Jod asTaaS e ©rpil JIXbxIb oii# 

luovat ftXx/bw r Jsfiir ta*iC« sfx ai)aa i jjosijorf* I ^d-oai af 

.;rJ: *9a bXifow ©If* wottA &S mill blaow I *i;tf jaJloaft-itadmwi 

355 - 2-26-45 


HON, LESLIE S» BLA.CKft'3LL (Attorney General): Mr. 
Speaker, I would like the opportunity of making a few remarks 
on this billo May I first remind this House that the prac- 
tice is not new» It is already found in the Optometry Act. 
I do not know whether, being a university graduate, I can 
pronounce it, but Chiropody Act also has it o Those Acts 
all fall within the arsa of aMeavour where it i» in the 
public Interest that the people who are registered there- 
under should be qualified in some respect and registered 
as such. Thatj might I say., in principle;, is the entire 
Justification for such an Act, if it is,, in the serious 
consideration of this Lagisla':;ure, in the public interest 
that such people as may be dOHcribad as forest engineers 
should be registered:, Now^ if it is in the public 
interest, we then oame to this problem. There are al- 
ready operating in the forests of the province of Ontario 
many people well qualified to be registered under any 
proper regulations which would be passed under such an 
Act, A legislature should be very scrupulous in passing 
legislation of this description where it is establishing 
a qualification basis, a registration basis, that it has 
due regard for what may bs described as the proper vested 
interests of decent people who have acquired their qualifi- 
cations in the practical and hard way and can functiono 

Like the other Acts that I have nientioned, that 
exhibit this theory, as being somewhere between the 
straight professions and those things which are not 
professional, being in between, from the point of view 
of the university 'degree, the protection that the public 
interest gets is the traditional way of setting up a 
board, where the responsibility for the selection of that 


' BjoA eeor.' 

J sais^f I 

■■)■ I' Hj^F>.; 

ia.i&t> 6> 


VO iq !:>» 1 

Y:nB '■:. 


i eonuofio'iq 
i.Bi&iat oJtIcft;q 

n iTv i) !_' ».-» rr rA r^ 

'xj*:>i*-.'-»a<7J. J, 

icF\.i%/ ^v.j 

5^ . bL a .J-oA 

Jb©;t&©v isqot joediioaftij ©a ^anx *8riw to^ l)aBS©T sub 

,- , ^ h ^ - 


•tefia jD©riOi:?a©ai svb; rf* Oo 9311 J 

©d;t nser orfrt pM:t -ifidirfxe 

^■on »-ia aoiuw ^^liiiJ a«u.ij uaxj auoieeaioaq .JiiaieiJe 
wei: . oq ©dij moil ,ii©©wi-e xeesloiq 

T ©Hit Jsrl^ noi/.'jo.toiq '3rlJ . asrr:?,© Uj 

- 355 - 2-26-45 


board is delegated by the le/?;lslature to the gcvermiient , 
which is responsible again to the legislature for the way 
it functionso Then the actions of the board which has to 
pass upon the people who are to receive the degree are 
again subject to review by the legislature of the pro- 

I would also like to deal with the other ques- 
tion, and I am quite sure this was the view of the hono 
Ivlinister, unless it is the intention to deprive throughout 
this province many practical people who are well qualified 
for their right to practise o in some profession; the time 
is not yet ripe in this province when the Act should be 
brought together with the general Engineering Acto The 
time may come when all forest engineers who are qualified 
in the future may be graduates of the 3chool of Forestry 
of the University of Toronto; but, Mr. Speaker, I would 
remind the hon, members that that time is not yet, unless 
a great injustice is to be done a great number of well 
qualified people. 

l-Ji. ROBINSON (Port Arthur): Mr, Speaker, it 
seems to me that this Act might well come under the 
Engineers' Act, as has been stated over hereo I would 
agree that they would possibly not be electrical engineers 
or other engineers who sit for examinations o But I agree 
that the Forestry Department possibly should set up the 

It seems to me that it is unnecessary to set up 
a whole new set of machinery for the Forestry Engineers, 
when we already have an engineering organization in this 

I/!R. OVERALL: Mr. Speaker, I would like to say 


„ It Oil 


^ »*" rj ■*^ rf 

.^ortuTt it 





Toiia t- 






•It 0©aafi 


/r'en sXorfw 8 
3 evsri x&eeiXfi^ ew n»div 

.eor ■' • "■- 

w I « 

- 357 - 2-26-45 

ItTo Overall 

that I never expect that at any tlma the engineers in 
this country will be all graduates of the School of 
Forestryo But may I say that the members should be 
graduates of the School of Forestry or the equivalent; 
that gives a man a chance to qualify under a board of 
examiners > and that is how it ought to be. I would 
like to say to the hon. Attorney General that if we 
took out all the men who are not graduates of the uni- 
versity, we would not have many engineers in this pro- 

This Act ought to include all men who are 
qualified in the province; and, as I read it, that is 
what this Act does not desire . A man who is qualified 
from experience and those who have qualified by graduation 
and have two years experience in engineering should be mem- 
bers. It is identically the same, and I hope you will 
forgive me for saying so; but you will find that the forestry 
engineers will be an absolute duplication of the professional 
engineering act in respect of machinery; and there is no code 
of ethics set up, but I suppose there will be and will pro- 
bably be a reprint of the professional engineers; and I cer- 
tainly urge on the hon<, Minister to incorporate it in this 
Act, where it belongs, and put it under the Professional 
Engineers' Ac to 

HON. WILLIAM G, WEBSTER (Minister without Port- 
folio): May I make an observation on this engineering 
business? I happen to have spent a good deal of my life 
in engineering and I would suggest it would be Just about 
as sensible to take the chiropodist and call him a foot and 
bone engineer and take chiropractors and call them bone 
engineers. Forestry has nothing to do with engineering. 

8* -as -a 

XXB19V0 oOM 

a J: eiaeaisae Qd$ matt x^n ^^ ^aif^ ^oeqxe ler^i I ;tad^ 

esfsyfceT?^ ' rtJffuoo Bid;} 

m tt 

-oiq o 

AfA ' ri» aem I la ^r, 

ac^. . ^ .J.-., ij »^ ^wi fc?* '' 
-n»fs ed biuods ^aiitmai^tf 

iXtw uov Tfl ,flM0e ar 

VX^aoiol «ri* w:ii.v bait litw uox ti< 
iBaoieed'loTq wii 1 
Bboo on ai ©TsHt ftns 

-rrao i 

la: - 

elJtl Y^f lo I Be! ^fleqa eviui 

aaocS ifleri? I.:bs! ivi^a ?. 

odv nanr erf;? LIV: iim 3loa3" 

f ^^fT 

'i bellilBUp 

»tiitia»bt Bl II .81 ad 

« enaealaae 

- ,. V r^ -S V -^ y^ 

©d Ylaad 
a^ii; Y-^lB* 

- '^'j ji e-idilir «.^oA 

.^oA •eiean.:. 


0& aegqBii I Taeenlaucf 

, : . . J exaxEa&a ee 

leanisfle snod 

- 358 - 2-26-45 

MPo Webster 

Engineering, after all, is about the most abused term in 
the worldo You could add engineer to men who run peanut 
stands if you wanted to, but engineering is something which 
originally » in my Judgment, included civil engineers, 
mechanical, electrical, mining engineering — all calling 
for a thorough knowledge of higher mathematics; ability 
to design, and when you start adding all theae other 
appendages to' engineers you make engineering a joke.. 

MR, SALSBBRSs My question to the Minister, Mr« 
Speaker,- is that if this bill is tv> app3.y to practical 
forestry men, , whether the bill has been discussed with 
organizations of practical forestry a^n, I hare in mind 
not only an association but also a union of forestry men, 
such as lumber workers' unions of this province? 

BSR. SPBAKBR: That is your question? 

UR. 3ALSBEBG: Yesg and whether he would agree 
to submitting this bill to associations, unions and other 
bodies of forestry men for approval before its final adop- 
tion. That is the questiono 

MR. THOMPSON: Mr. Speaker, my answer to the 
latter question is noo To the other one, the bill does 
not include graduates of universities, I would just like 
to know what territory the hon. member is taking in when 
he asks if it has been discussed with certain -- 

MR. SALSBSRG: In reply to the hon. Minister I 
want to say to that that I am not a university engineer, 
and I do not favour granting an engineering licence to every 
forestry employee just as we do now to stationary engineers, 
but I want to be clear — will such titles be given to every 
practical forestry worker or not — and I am not objecting 
nor am I approving the bill nor am I oomplaining. 

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- 359 - 2-2&-45 

Uro Salsberg 

MR. SPEAKER: You are making an address now. 

MR. SALSBBRG: In reply to the hon. Minister I 
merely want to say as a member of this Legislature that 
all I desire is clarity as to the limits and purposes of 
the bill, which I am sorry to say I have not as yet ob- 

MRo MURRAY: I have been in the lumber business 
a long time but I have never seen a forestry engineer, I 
do not think, in my part of the country. I was Just 
wondering what the duties of a forestry engineer is. I 
have heard of it and I have had some correspondence with 
them, but we have government scalers and government cruisers 
and we have men in different categories coneerning the 
lumber business, but a forestry engineer is a man I know 
very little about, and the very idea of giving everybody 
that is connected with the lumber business .-- whether 
log maker or roller — the title "forestry engineer,"* I 
am surprised that any hon, member would think of it. 

I would like to put a question on that particular 
point: What are the duties of a forestry engineer? One 
of the most valuable men that we have in the lumber busi- 
ness -- I do not know whether women are going to take up 
this occupation or not — is timber cruiser. He is the 
man who goes into the bush and tells us what is in it. 
Then another valuable man is the man who, after you are 
through cutting, can tell you what is left and what should 
be taken outo That is one of the great sins of the 
lumbermen to-day. The inspector -- he is a qualified 
government culler -- should know something about trees, 
and if he is able to go through the bush and compel 
lumbermen to cut proper logs and eliminate waste, then 
he is a very valuable man, and the government have what 

- 360 - 2-26-45 

MTo. Murray 

is called a government cruiser go over timber limits and 
develop different kinds of timber on it and say what it is 
worth on the stumpo We find in a great many cases we have 
not got them any morCo I think I would have a practical 
man who has learned this in the bush — where you get real 
fundamental men -- rather than get men educated in the 
University of Toronto.,, 

I perhaps will speak on this when I am speaking 
on the Speech from the Throne, if I feel like it. Anyway, 
this is a very important matter because I know it and I 
am in the business long enough and I know all the mistakes 
made and the inefficiency and how hard it is to get lumber 
men. I am not one of those fellows who just get up and 
talk incessantly for the lumberman » I am not here to 
represent the lumbermen at alio I am here to represent 
the people of Ontario and the owners of the timber of 
Ontario, including all residents and inhabitants of the 

MR. SPEAKER: A lot of these details were discus- 
sed in the Committee of the Whole, May I say — 

MR. E, B, JOLLIFFE (Leader of the Opposition): 
I would like to say a word about the principle of the bill, 
and there may be others, I don't know-. 

I do not pretend to be an authority on the issue 
which has been discussed this afternoon with respect to the 
duplication there may be between machinery set up under 
this Act and the Professional Engineers* Act. I do want 
to suggest, however, that it is worthy of consideration by 
the Government and by the Minister* Certainly we have 
not heard to-day any convincing explanation of the neces- 
sity for a different billo 

- 561 - 2-26-45 


The Minister without Portfolio (Mr. Webster) who 
represente London in this House, and who has recently 
ascended to engineer the distribution of liquor, has said 
that these people, under this Act, have nothing to do with 
engineeringc Well, if that is so it is very strange that 
they are described in the Act as "For est Engineers*, and 
the hon„ Minister of Lands and Forests (Mr. Thompson) I 
think should re-examine the Act he defendSo 

I was very pleased to hear an assurance from 
both the Minister of Lands and Forests and the Attorney 
General (Mr,BiactL;/3ll ) that there is no thoughts for a 
long time to comss of limiting this qualification of i«aceu 
graduates of the Forestry School » I have the greatest 
respect for the work being done by that school. I think 
it is of great importance to the future of forestry in 
this province and I may say to the hono member from Renfrew 
South (Mrc Murray) that the students of the forestry schools 
spend a great part of their time in very practical work, 
not in theoretical work. But the point I wqnt to make is that 
I do not believe it is a good principle — and certainly it 
is not being done in this Act — to limit a certain field 
to professional qualifications or graduates of one forestry 
school. We would probably gain a great deal of value 
from time to time by accepting people who are graduates 
of other schools or people who are practical men and who 
have by study or experience qualified professionally. 

We can probably learn a great deal of value from 
forestry engineers who have spent some time or who have 
qualified in some other country where it may well be for- 
estry practice is more advanced than our own. So that I 
am pleased to see that the bill itself does not place any 

3*-as-s - Ldtr- 

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- 368 - 2-26-45 


severe limitation on queliflcations. However, it does 
authorize the board to establish the necessary qupllfiea- 
tionso As some one has suggested, I do not believe 
it will have the effect of quallfyipg engineers in the 
same sense as stationary engineers are qualifledo Uy 
understanding of this bill is that it opens the door to 
a general improvement and raises the standards of forestry 
practice in this province by giving recognition to a cer- 
tain group of technically qualified people. And I would 
like to assure the hon. member for St« Andrew (MroSalisberg) 
that forestry ca-ii be a highly technical occupation, and one 
that calls for a very high standard of training experience* 

My main purpose in speaking to the bill is to 
suggest that unless there is some much more convincing 
reason than we have heard regarding the Professional 
Engineers* Act, the Government ought to take into con- 
sideration the advisability of bringing them together, 
and if they are willing to do that, I am sure the hon* 
member for Riagiara Falls (Mr<> Overall) would be quite 
prepared to let the hon. Minister take the credit « 

MR. LESLIE HANCOCK (Wellington South): Mr* 
Speaker, certainly I feel the Ministry is to be con- 
gratulated in bringing forward a hill of this nature. 
From my experience of what has been going on in Ontario, 
as compared to the older countries, I personally do not 
see any better way to improve the status of our forestry 
than the introduction of this billo Of course, it is 
a debatable question, whether you make all your registered 
engineers graduates of a forestry college or not. This 
Act, however, does not give this House any place in saying 
who shall be registered engineers. I note it says 

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- 363 - 2-26-45 

MTo Hancock 

••regulations' shall mean regulations made under this Act,* 
and then we find there are no regulations to be actually 
made under this Act o They are all to be made by a 
board of examiners, subject to the approval of the 
Lieutenant Governor in Council o 

Now, that is the faulty I think, which appears in 
all these Acts, that we pass a great many points, and the 
interpretation of those points is entirely in the hands of 
boards, I know that a board is a good thing in matters 
scientific, and we must have boards c» because even the 
ninety hon. members of this House could not decide what 
form these qualifications and standards should take<, 
However, I am certainly concerned as to how these boards 
are appointed o Personally j I think that in cases where 
science is primarily and entirely concerned, we do wrong 
to leave the appointment of a board such as the forestry 
board entirely in the hands, say, of a government » I 
think we should state in the Act — I think we should tie 
it up with those authorities in the country who have al- 
ready trained men for forestry work, and I think this Act 
should be tied up with such schools of forestry as we do 

I believe there should be two types of registered 
engineers, the graduate engineer, and the man with long, 
practical experience in forestryg and I would certainly like 
to leave this thought with the Legislature and with those 
who may finally have the appointment of the boards, that so 
long as we follow the practices which have obtained Ip. Sweden 
and those countries which have already made a name for them- 
selves as expert forestry countries, we cannot go wrong. 
And although I should like to see just how the regulations 

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- 364 ~ 2-.26-45o 

Llr. Hancock, 

tie in, I would like to see theia written into this Act, 
but I rather deplore the fact that boards are appointed 
entirely at the discretion of the Government. 

Motion agreed to and hill read the s:econd time, 

IjIR. DREW: Order NOo 15 o 

CLERK OF TIIE HOUSE: Fifteenth order, second read- 
ing of Bill No„ 36, "An Act to arnend the Public r:/orks Act," 
BJr. Doucett, 

HON. GEORGE H. DOUCETT (Minister of Public V/orks) : 
Mr. Speaker, I move second reading of Bill NOc 26o This is, 
as I explained the other day, tji amendment to the Public 
Works Act, which makes it permissible for us to obtain 
tenders by letters instead of legal tender. In the case of 
buying properties, heretofore if we wished to make the offer 
it was by way of legal tender, and now xie are asking to be 
permitted to do it by letter. 

Motion agreed to and bill read the second time, 

HON. GEORGE A. DREW (Prime Minister): Mr. Speaker, 
it being now close to six o'clock, I move the adjournmejnt 
of the House o 

MR. JOLLIFFE: Mr. Speaker^ perhaps the hon. Prime 
Minister might indicate, for the benefit of other hon. members 
of the House, the nature of the business to-morrow. 


MR, DREW: Yes. As I explained on Friday, it is 
our intention to proceed with the debate on the Speech from 
the Throne, subject, possibly, to giving third reading to a • 
fetr of these formal bills, which will not take more than ten 
or fifteen minutes at the outside. In other words, I will 
talce up nothing which will cut into your time. 

Motion agreed to- and the Plouse adjourned at 5:55, p.m. 

(Page 380 follows . ) 

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- 380 - 



Toronto 9 Ontario, 
Tuesday, February 27,1945. 

SPEAKER; Honourable William J» Stewart, C»BoE. 

Tile House met at three ,o* clock. 


MR. SPEAKER: Presenting petitions o 

Reading and receiving petitions, 

CLERK OF THE HOUSE; The following petition has 
been received: 

Of the Corporation of the Township of Stamford, 
praying that an Act may pass granting the Township the 
standing of a town for the purposes of Section 12 of the 
Assessment Act and Section 24 of the Public Health Act. 

The following petition was brought up and laid 
upon the table: 

By Mro Martin, the Petitition of the Ontario 
Music Teachers' Associationo 

MR, SPEAKER: Presenting reports by committees. 

MR, HARRY A. STEWART (Kingston): Mr. Speaker, I 
beg leave to present the first report of the Committee on 
Standing Orders, and move its adoption. 

CLERK OF THE HOUSE: Mr. Stewart (Kingston) from 

k K 

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- 381 « 2-27-45 

the Conimittee on Standing Ordei-s presents the first report 
as follows J 

•Your Standing Committee on Standing Orders begs 
leave to present 'the following as its First Bepcrt; 

•Your Committee has carefully examined the 
following petitions and finds the notices as published 
in each sufficient: 

Of the Corporation of the Town of Barrie, praying 
that an Act may pass authorizing the Petitioners to 
purchase the Barrie arena from the Barrie Agricultural 
Arena, Limited, and to issue debentures of fSOjOOC in 
connection therewith^ 

•Of the Corporation of the City of Woodstock, 
praying that an Act may pass validating a by-law and 
agreement to confer an exclusive tec year franchise 
for the operation of buses made between the Corpora^' 
tion and the Bluebird Coach Lineso 

•Of the Incorporated Synod of the Diocese of 
Niagara J praying that en Act may pass extending the 
authority of the Petitioners in the matter of the 
investment of its general trust fundr.<, 

•Of the Evangelical Lutheran Seminary of Cans da » 
praying that an Act may pass authorl icing an increase 
in the nuraber of members of the Board of the Seminary 
and an extension of the powers of the Board to hold real 
and personal property » 

•Of the Corporation of the City of Sto Thomas, 
praying that an Act may pass authorizing the said 
Corporation to establish or acquire an airport, to close 
certain streets and for other purposeso 

•Of the Homan Catholic Separate School Board of 


.iuOj an J 




:. cr bac 

- 382 - 2-27-45 

the ©Ity of Ottawaj, praying that an Act may pass authoriz- 
ing the holding of elections to the said Board every 
second year on the same day as the election of the 
Municipal Council of Ottawa. 

•Of the Sacred Heart College of Sudbury, praying 
that an Act may pass raising the College to the status of 
a university to be known as the University of Sudbury o 

*0f William Ao Armstrongj, Harold Jo Badden, 
Eo Hoy Butler, at al , praying that an Act may pass 
authorizing the incorporatioh of a Club to be known 
as the Kingsboro Club and to borrow money and pur- 
chase property for the purposes of the Club» 

•Of the Corporation of the City of Toronto, 
praying that an Act may pass authorizing the Corporation 
to pass by-laws for slum clearance and low housing pro- 
jects ;> to pay certain debenture interest in funds of 
the United States or Canada and for other purposes* 

•Of the Corporation of the City of Toronto ^ pray- 
ing that an Act may pass authorizing the said Corporation 
to establish and appoint a permanent, Planning Board o 

•Petition of the Corporation of the City of 
Wellandj praying that an Act may pass valid8.ting an 
agreement between the Petitioners and the Erie Coach 
Lines, Limited, providing for an ezclusive franchise to 
the said Erie Coah Lines » Limited o 

•Your Committee recoimnends that Hule NOo 63 of 
your Honourable House be suspended in this that the tins 
for presenting Petitions for Private Bills be extended 
until and inclusive of Wednesday, the 28th day of 
February next,* 

ME» KELSO ROBERTS (Sto Patrick): Mro Speaker, 


- iQO 

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- 383 - 2-27-45 

Uro Roberts 

I beg leave to submit the final report of the Select • 
Standing Committee appointed by the Legislative Assembly 
to consider the problem of the development and processing 
of the Lignite Deposits in OntariOo 

CLERK OF THE HOUSE: Mr, Eobsrts, from the 
Select Committee appointed by the Legislative Assembly to 
consider the problem of the development and processing 
of the lignite deposits in Ontario, presents the final 
report as follows: 

•This Committee begs to report as follows: 
•On the 24th and 25th of July, 1944, the 
Committee members with certain exceptions visited 
the deposits at Onakawana and were accompanied by 
the following technical staff — Dro Ho Co Rickaby, 
Peputy Minister of Mines , Do Go Sinclair, Assistant 
Deputy Minister of Mines and in charge of the lignite 
development, A., Ro Crozier, Mine Assessor, Dro EoAoRo 
Westman, of the Ontario Fuel Commission, Dro Grenville 
Frost, Professor of Chemistry, Queen's University, Dr. 
George Langford, and Ro Lo Sutherland, Combustion 
Engineer of the Truaz-Traer Coal Company of Chicago, 


*The secretary of the Committee, Raiph Hyman, 
and William Nlxonj, former Industrial Commissioner of 
the To and No Co Railway, as well as Messrs. E. Ro 
Tucker of Cochrane, R. Do Gumming of Haileybury, Roy 
Thompson of Kirkland Lake, and James Horniek of Timmins, 
accompanied the Committee at the invitation of the 

•The Minister of Mines, the Honourable Mro Frost, 
also accompanied the Committee memberSo On July twenty 


0^ ^IdmeaaA i&> 

»fl -rid- If 

I og ■ 1 »iarrt 

« ^ao'xt > 'ill 8 

- 384 - 2-27-45 

seventh, 1944 9 an interim report was submitted to the 
Premier and the Government of the Province o 

•On the twenty-seventh and twenty-eighth of 
September, 19449 ^^'^ Committee met again in Toronto, 
At this meeting a progress report from Mr. Do Go 
Sinclair, Assistant Deputy Minister of Mines and in 
charge of the lignite development » was received and 
the memoranda supplied to the Chairman from the 
following expert staff were considered: 

•Mro Ho L. Sutherland} Combustion Engineer, 
Truax-Traer Coel Company, Chicago, Illinois o 

"Mto Ao R. Crozier, Mine Assessor, Department 
of Mines o 

•MTo D. G-. Sinclair, Assistant Deputy Minister 
of Mines o 

•Dro Grenville Po Frost, Professor of Chemistry, 
i^ueen's University s, Kingston, Ontario » 

*Dro Ao Bo Ro Wastman, Ontario Research Founda- 
tion « 

"The following is quoted from the interim report 

submitted by the Committee to the Premier and the Govern^ 

ment of this Province » dated September twenty- eighth, 


•'At the request of the Committee 
and in the absence of Mro Sutherland 
and Dro Frost, Messrso Crozier^ Sinclair 
and Westman who were present at the 
deliberations s, analysed the recom" 
mendations contained in the memoranda 
and advised the Committee that there 
was substantial agreement among the 
technical advisers with regard to 
factual data pertaining to the 
Onakawana development and with 
regard to the following con- 
clusions and recommendations except 
where otherwise indicatedo** 

Herewith are their conclusions and recommendations: 

--•wi fine rfd^r. *• 




3aiyci3vei^ ajiogii ofi. 3TBilo 

ctosuisa.! . aaai^o^iui. 





- 385 - 2-2f?-45 

•lo The mining cost is the most 
important factoro 

•E. The processing can be ace cmpli shed. 

•So There is a potential market for 

100,000 tons of processed lignite 
a year but not an assured base 

•Dr» Frost *s memorandum is less favourable than this 

since he concludes: 

•(1} The proposition that 100,000 tons 
per year of Flejtssner lignite can 
be marketed in the Cochrane-Kirkland 
Lake-Timmins area, as a self- 
supporting enterprise , without 
access to the railroad market, is 
unsound o 

*4o In view of the investment already made 
the experimental development should be con- 
tinued on a tentative basis o There is a 
difference of opinion as to whether it 
should be confined to mining or should 
include processing. The Sinclair and 
Frost memoranda suggested mining only. 
In view of later discussion in the 
Committee, Mr« Sinclair now agrees that 
processing be included since the amount 
to be saved by eliminating the process- 
ing is small in proportion to other 
expenditures (possibly $7,500 capital 
and |3,500 per month for two or three 
months o ) 

•5o As an additional recommendation 
we would suggest that, if it is 
decided to discontinue the develop- 
ment now or at a later date, arrange- 
ments be made to stockpile from 2,000 
to 5,000 tons of raw lignite so that 
experiments with possible new pro- 
cesses which may prove advisable 
in the future will not require 
reopening of the deposit," 

•Whilst Messrs- Crozler, Sinclair and V/estman 
were preparing the above quoted memorandum, the members 
of the committee discussed the project and the con- 
clusions which they reached were in substantial accord 
with the foregoing memorandum, 

•The Committee has had an opportunity now of 
studying various reports, seeing the property itself and 




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- 386 - 2-27-45 

hearing the views of both the technical experts and 
others o The evidence at present available indicates 

that any field of commercial operations, will in all 
probability be confined to the areas known as A and B 
unless new means of recovery or treatment or both are 
later developedo The estimates of lignite reserves 
including both lower and upper seams in the Areas A 
and B approximate 10,000,000 tonso :lrea A, which 
is the more favourable area and is the area which is 
at the present time being worked, is estimated to 
contain approximately 3,000 jOOO tons of nearly all 
lower seam material <> Only actual operations will 
determine what proportion, if any, of the upper seam 
can be utilized and therefore the estimate of re- 
serves may require downward revision.. Beyond these 
areas and with a substantially greater ratio of 
overburden, a further 90,000,000 tons of lignite is 
indicated, the development of which cannot, in our 
opinion, be economically undertaken under present 
known method So 

•It should toe borne in mind that it. requires 
three tons of the raw mined to produce one ton of the 
Fleissner dried lignite <> Inevitably a variety of 
sizes would be produced so that industrial as well 
as domftstic markets would be necessary <, It is • 
anticipated that not more than 75 per cent of the 
Fleissner dried product will be suitable for the 
domestic market* 

*The expenditures for experimental plant and 
equipment, including present comiriitments and costs of 
installation amount to t432,000<> This is an experi- 
mental plant only and will be capable of producing 

n«iBolbal BidBlteye 

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8 IS .■.: fTOfp;*-?. 

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- 387 - E-27-45 

about 60 tons of the Flei saner dried lignite per day. 
Obviously, this limited production could not be self- 
supportingo In order to enlarge and equip the 
operation for a scale of production of 100,000 tons 
per year of Pleissner dried lignite — ioCo about 
365 tons per day — additional capital expenditures 
estimated at $750^000 would be required o It should 
also be stated that the expenditures to date, in ad- 
dition to the cost of the plant and equipment, amount 
to approximately |553,000. It will be observed 
that total expenditures to date have reached about 

•Gf the $100j,000 allocated to the enterprise 
by the Legislature at its last session^ $73,000 has 
been spent or committed^ leaving |27s,000 to take care 
of the requirements up to December Isto Hr^ Sinclair 
estimates that this amount may carry the enterprise to 
the period of entering upon production and estimates 
that approximately 116;, 000 per month will be required 
to Carry on the experiiaental operation after December 
1st next 3 assuming that no revenue is derived from 
the sale of the product to apply against this expendi- 

•From the evidence before the Committee 3 the 
facts as they have been able to ascertain them and the 
advice of the technical staff, the Committee (loes 
not believe that the development of the lignite 
deposit at Onakawana is economically sound, particular- 
ly in view of the lack of evidence of any substantial 
backlog of industrial markets o In view, however, 
of the large amount of money already spent on the 

,j ;. . ■%:■ .-• ^ 

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- 386 - 2-27-45 

project and particularly the amount that has been 
spent on the partial installations of a plant to 
dry the material by the Fleissner method, the 
Committee is of the opinion that for experimental 
and research reasons, it is advisable to complete 
the small scale plant and produce therefrom suffi- 
cient quantities of Fleissner dried lignite in order 
that the fullest possible information can be mad* 
available as to the methods and results, in case 
at some future date this information should be of 
value <» 

•In this connection we wish to draw particular 
attention to the summary and recommendations contained 
in the memorandum of Mto Bo L. Sutherland, dated August 
30th, 1944o 

•lo A study of the various reports 
covering the exploration of the lignite field 
and the experimental work on processing and 
burning the processed lignite indicates that 
while definite progress has been made there 
are still a number of variables in the mining, 
processing and marketing phases that have not 
been fully explored, and which can only be 
determined by actual experience. 

'2« Elimination of the fuel require- 
ments of the To & N. 0, Railway has reduced 
the potential market and the most promising 
backlog tonnage for a commercial develop- 

*3o The mining and processing equip- 
ment required to provide reasonably definite 




ii) lenaaieX^ 


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- 369 - 2-27-45 

data on the cost of production is either 
Installed at th« property or is in process 
of fabrication, 

*4. A substantial part of the 
stripping required for one season's opera- 
tion of the processing plant has been com- 
pleted » 

'So A large investment in explora- 
tion and development work has been incurred* 

'60 An estimate of the cost of com- 
pleting the small scale plant now under con- 
struction and of operating the processing 
plant for a period of nine months has been 
included in the Fuel Commission's Report* 
This cost can be considered as insurance 
protection in determining whether or not a 
commercial development would be a prudent 
investment. The actual operating period 
required will depend on conditions encount- 
ered and cannot be determined accurately 
in advance. 

'In view of the investment in explora- 
tion and development work to date it is recom- 
mended that: 

lo The stripping, mining and processing work 
now under way be continued long enough to pro- 
vide reasonably accurate information on (a) 
mining conditions, (b) proecessing technique, 
(0} costs of mining and processing, (d) market 

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- 390 - 2-'27-45 

reaction in both domestic and industrial 

2o In the initial stages of market develop- 
ment close attention be given to the use of 
the fuel in all types of burning equipment 
to ensure that best results be obtained <> 
This may require the services of one or 
more qualified engineers until the use of 
the fuel is well establisheda 
3o Consideration be given to provision of 
an assured base of backlog tonnage before 
undertaking a large scale commercial develop- 
ment to avoid operating losses during the 
period of market development., This ton- 
nage can best be provided in industrial 
plants burning fuel throughout the year,, 
The cooperation of owners contemplating the 
erection of new steam plants or having 
plants in which the installation of modern 
burning equipment would be most helpful. 
Lignite can be burned in plants having pul- 
verized fuel equipment without change to 
burners or furnaces o Additional pulver- 
izing capacity may be required on account 
of the lower heat value of the lignite per 
ton and the relatively low grindability of 

•With the completion of such a 
program enough information should be avail- 
able to determina with reasonable accuracy 
whether the lignite deposit has a place in 
the immediate economic life of Horthern 


e*-^s-a - 09S 

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- 391 - 2-27-45 

Ontario or should be considered as a 
potential resource to be reserved for 
use in connection with other natural 
resources adjacent to the deposit <> In 
either case the value of the deposit will 
have been determined and further large 
scale work will not be required if or 
when commercial development becomes 
practicable o ' . 

"We also recommend that a competent strip 
mining consultant be engaged to survey the mining pro- 
blems at the property and submit a report on practices 
and costs, as soon as possible ^ with regard to the 
product which will be produced from the experimental 
plant, the Committee is of the opinion that this 
should receive as wide market tests as possible for 
the purpose of obtaining information concerning pos- 
sible useo In this connection someone experienced 
in the burning, use and marketing of lignite might 
well be employed to further explore and develop a 
purely experimental market, whose duties would 
include the collecting of data on these experimental 
marketing tests. 

"It is the view of this Committee that the full 
position of the lignite project should be placed 
before the people of the province and particularly 
those most interested in the project in its true per- 
spective and, to this end, the Committee recommends 
that consideration be given to the issuing of factual 
statements and the publication of a pamphlet on the 
subject o 


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- 392 " 2~27-45 

•Tte Coinnilttee wishes to again express its 
apx?rQSlation of the work of the technical experts 
and in particular of Mro Ro Lo Sutherland and DTo 
Granville Frost » both of whom gav® freely of their 
aer^lees and whose counsel and advice have been of 
great value to the Coinmittett Iz. its deliberatlonso 

•The foregoing quotation coamenoing as indi- 
cated on page two and continuing to this point eon" 
tains the main findings of the Gommitteeo 

"The Comxaltte® met again on the twenty-third of 
Februftr>% 19463 and authorized this chairman to submit 
this report after considering a further progress report 
by Mro Do Go Sinclair o Mr. Sinclair'*s report bearing 
date seventeenth of Februarys, 1945a indicated that two 
autoclaves h*%'e now been completed and received at the 
property and that a contract for inataliation of the 
high pressure steaia lines from the boiler plant to 
serve the autoclaves has been let and will be com- 
pleted as soon as necessary » Materials Tor the in- 
stallation are available. Utc Sinclair reports that 
in the fiscal year beginning April Ist;, 1944;, and up 
to February ISth., 1945, expenditures relating to the 
deposit totalling ^893242 dS in addition to certain 
commitments not paid for during the periodo Ee also 
reported that a fire at the property had destroys*? 
the garage, machine shop and part of the warehouse on 
February 9th, 1945o A considerable quantity of parts 
of essential equipment was damagedo The committee 
recommends proceeding in the most economical manner 
possiblej and that such essential work as may be re- 
quired bo earried outo Recommendations set down in 
the above mentioned interim report on September 27th, 
1944, are fully quoted o 

*S« J«fll 


- 393 - 2-27-45 

*Th9 Committee stresses the view that it does 
not believe that the development of the lignite de- 
posit at Onakawa^a is economically sound particularly 
in view of the lack of evidence of any substantial 
backlog of industrial markets but for the reasons 
already quoted herein is of the opinion that a suf- 
ficient quantity of Fleissner dried lignite should be 
produced in order that the fullest possible informa- 
tion can be made available as to the methods and re- 
sults in case at some future date this information 
should be of value o 

•The study of the Committee has been confined 
to the question of the lignite deposits in OntariOo 
No other question has been referred to it. 

•All of which is respectfully submitted, 
(Signed) A> Kelso Roberts, 

Chairman, Select Committeeo" 
MR, JOLLIFFE: Is this the final report of the 

MR* ROBERTS: The final report, yea. 
Motion agreed tOo 
MR, SPEAKER: Motions <> 
Introduction of billso 

MR. M, Fo HEPBURN (Blgin); Mr«Speaker, I move, 
seconded by Mr,, Nixon (Brant) that leave be given to intro- 
duce a bill intituled, "An Act respecting the City of St, 
Thomas," and that same be now read the first time. 

Motion agreed to and bill read the first time, 
MR. ROBERT lAURIER (Ottawa East): Mr, Speaker, 
I beg to move, seconded by Mr, Patterson, that leave be 
given to introduce a bill intituled, "An Act respecting 


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- 394 - 2-27-45 

Hto Laurler 

the City of Ottawa Separate School Board,* and that same be 
now read the first timeo 

Motion agreed to and bill read the first tim«o 

MR. HOWARD E, BROWN (Well«nd); Mr. Speaker, I beg 
to move, seconded by Mr* Robinson (Port Arthur) that leave 
be given to introduce a bill intituled, "An Act respecting 
the City of Welland,'* and that same be now read the first 

Motion agreed to and bill read the first time. 

MR, JOHN Ho COOK (Waterloo North); Mr, Speaker, 
I move, seconded by Mr* Overall, that leave be given to 
introduce a bill intituled, *An Act respecting the 
Evangelical Lutheran Seminary of Canada, "and that same be 
now read the first time. 

Motion agreed to and bill read the first timeo 

MR. Ao KELSO ROBERTS (St. Patrick)? Mr. Speaker, 
I beg to move, seconded by Mr<. Murdoch, that leave be given 
to introduce a bill intituled, "An Act respecting the Synod 
of the Diocese of Niagara,* and that same be now read the 
first time. 

Motion agreed to and bill read the first time. 

MRo THOMAS R. DBNT ( Oxford ) s Mr, Speaker, I move, 
seconded by Mr, Arnott, that leave be given to introduce a 
bill intituled, "An Act respecting the City of Woodstock, • 
and that same be now read the first timeo 

Motion agreed to and bill read the first timeo 

MRo JOHN L. Mcdonald (Stormont); Mr, Speaker, I 
beg leave to move, seconded by Mro Martin, that leave be 
given to introduce a bill intituled, "An Act respecting 
the Town of Barrie,* and that same be now read the first 


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- 395 - 2-27-45 

MR, SPEAKER: In the absence of Mr, Johnston, 
MPc McDonald moves that leave be given to introduce a bill 
intituled, •♦An Act respecting the Town of Barrie," Does 
the hon. member for Haldimand- Norfolk (Mr, Martin} second 
the motion? 

MR. MARTIN: Yes, Mr, Speaker. 

Motionagreed to and bill read the first time. 

MR. AURELISK BEIANGER (Prescott); Mr. Speaker, I 
beg to move, seconded by Mr. Murray, that leave be given to 
introduce a bill intituled, •*An Act to amend the Municipal 
Act,** and that same be now read the first timoo 

Motion agreed to and bill read the first time. 

MR. DUNBAR: Will the hon. member for Prescott 
(Mro Belanger) kindly explain the bill? 

MR. BELANGER: Mr. Speaker, the bill looks forward 
to the abolition of the improvement districts as they have 
been created and modified by an amendment to Section 44 of 
the Municipal Act. I do not suppose any further explana- 
tion is necessary* The sole intent of it is for abolish- 
ing districts that were created in 1943 and modified in 
1944 by Section 44 of the Municipal Act. 

MR. SPEAKER: Any further bills? 

MR. BELANGER: Mr. Speaker, during the recess 
I was advised officially by the Department of the Pro- 
vincial Secretary that a new policy had been inaugurated 
regarding the incorporation of companies or corporations 
without share capital, more particularly social clubs. 

Whether that is a permanent policy or just a 
temporary one has not been made clear; and it is important, 
I think, that the hon. Secretary of State should kindly 
tell us what this new policy is regarding the incorporation 


265 - 

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- 396 - 2-27-45 

Ur. Belang«r 

of a club. Then, again, the f«« has been raised from 
ten dollars to twenty dollars. There must be a reason 
for that, I would like the hon. Secretary of State, 
who has been advJ^sed of my question this afternoon, 
if he would kindly advise us -- 

HON. GEORGE H. DUNBA.R (Provincial Secretary): 
I thank you very much for the promotion. 

Mr. Speaker, regarding any new policy, I have 
not heard of any. In 1942, I think it was, in this House, 
where there had been complaints that the police in larger 
municipalities had great difficulty with social clubs than 
in existence carrying on gambling games, it was decided 
not to encourage the issuing of charters to social clubs. 
That was before my coming into the office of Provincial 
Secretary o And my predecessor asked for the particulars 
regarding the clubs, their finances, where- they were to 
be located, the names of the members which constituted the 
incorporation, and also a report from the local police and 
from the provincial police, to see if any objection was 
raised to a club being established there. 

Also, further, the charter of an incorporated 
club in this province is not worth the paper it is written 
on; it does not amount^ to anything. It does not give them 
the privilege of gambling or doing anything at all. But if 
you have it hanging on the wall, some of the members may say, 
"This is a chartered club,* and start doing things which they 
should not do. 

Another thing that has made it difficult in the 
past few years is an amendment to the Criminal Code of the 
Dominion of Canada > in which you can sit in a bona fids 
club if you pay ten cents an hour, not to exceed fifty 

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ari^ to •I)o0 Los 9£i& orf ;t.fT9ffl&ii«i(n* ne ei STUtY w**^ .tea^f 

- 397 - 2-27-45 

Mr. Dunbar 

cents a day, and you can play games. 

That has caused trouble to the police and to 
municipalities; because, if you have permission to enter 
a club and sit there at a charge of ten cents per hour 
or fifty cents per day they may be in trouble, after 
seeing money handled o 

They do not require a licence to carry on the 
functions of a social club, in reality. But the charter 
has been taken and placed on the wall, and they say, 
"We have a charter o* A lot of people who did not know 
the meaning of the charter felt that they were licensed 
to do almost anything* 

So far as my policy is concerned, it has not 
changed from the previous policy. I might agree, per- 
haps, with the hon. member for Prescott (MroBelanger) 
that we should arrive at some definite policy. But I 
think things have been going on fairly well and it has 
been handled very well by Mr. Johns, my deputy » 

So far as the charge of $20 instead of $10, I 
shall get the information* The Deputy says "No increase," 
I thought it was very singular that I did not know of the 
increase to double the fee, but my deputy says there is 
no increase. So I want to assure the hon. member for 
Prescott that I shall be glad to talk it ove? with him and 
arrive at a policy, so that he may get that information. 

I agree that it is not fair to the public to lead 
the people to believe that they have a charter which gives 
them some protection which does not exist o 

MRo BELANGER: With your leave, Mr, Speaker, I want 
to elucidate the subject, and perhaps the information I am 
about to give will be welcomed by the hon» Provincial 

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398 - 2-27=45 


I was coDcerned when the ruling was given to me 
that the incorporation of social clubs was being changed a 
I might say that in practically every parishj, say in 
Ottawa^ there is formed one of those social clubs, the 
object of which is simply this: It is not a proprietary 
clubj, there is no gain which goes to anyonso The profits 
are simply taken to instal a library, or increase the games 
and enlarge the poolrooms and so on^ the object being 
simply something like the YoM.C»A. There is a miniature 
YoMoC»A. in each one of those parishes^ with the object 
of taking away j^rom the billiard rooms and pool rooms the 
young people of our parishes <> 

Of course s I understand the parish can have it, 
but if there is no incorporation there is personal lia- 
bility; whereas with incorporation there is no such thing 
as personal liabilityo I think that is why those ssc°= 
tions of the Companies Act were enacted for thc3se cor=^ 
porations without share capital, just so as to help along 
these formationso 

I understand, and I agree with and sympathize with 
the question raised by the hon. Provincial Secretary {UTo 
Dunbar );> that these might develop into a racket o 

If you will allow me I might make a comparison » 
I was very much interested years ago in this House and I 
was instrumental in getting legislation passed and amended 
in respect of the Credit Dniono Now, at one period^ 
suddenly the Department thought that it would stop the 
incorporation of those credit unions because of abuses 
that had crept upo Steps were taken, by amendment, to 
do away with those abuses; and oredit unions are very 
rightly incorpoi'ated and they are doing really much goodo 

- sec - 

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e^iloicr onT ,9fioYnje rioiriw hIbs en ei ©tericf 

■ e baa emoc eriJ t ns 

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399 - 2- S 7-45 

Hi-o Bel anger 

It is too bad, if on account of certain racketeers 
and abuses, really good social clubs should be prevented from 
talcing the development which an incorporation would give 
thexao So that it is a question, which has happened very 
often, that in order to stop a particular evil a general 
good is abandoned o 

Mro Speaker, my object is simply this, to call 
the attention of the ho|a Minister to these facts and ask 
him to look into them and see that social good is not 
being prevented throughout the province of Ontario a 

MRa DUI'IBAR: Mr^ Speaker, I want to say to the 
hon. member that I was not acquainted with the fact that 
these things were connected with the church. I want to 
assure you that you will get your charter in order to 
own property and be exempt from public liability, which 
Is the only thing the charter does. But I tell you we 
have to be careful, and you will agree with me. 

Take for instance, Eastviewo That picture taken 
in there with men marking the blackboard in connection with 
races going on. The police stopped that; but as far as the 
church organizations are concerned, I v;ant to assure you 
you will liave a charter o 

MRo SPEAKER: Third readings o 

MRo DREW: Order KOo 1= 

CLERK OF THE HOUSE 2 First order, third reading of Bill 
NOo S6, "An Act to amend the Mental Hospitals Act,* 

HON» R, P. VIVIAN (Minister of Health); Mro Speaker, 
I move third reading of Bill NOo 36, "An Act to amend the 
Mental Hospitals Acto* 

Motion agreed to and bill read the third time. 

MR. DREW: Order No. 2. 

I 61 on as 

11. I&iiti^ 





iir beioeaac 

^ S91 





- 400 - 2-27-45 

CLERK OF THE HOUSE; Second order, third reading 
of Bill KOo 27, "An Act to amend the Children*s Protection 
Aot»" Mr. Vivian. 

HON. R« P. VIVIAN (Minister of Health): Mr, 
Speaker, I move third reading of Bill No, 27, "An Act to 
amend the Children's Protection Acto* 

MR. WILLIAM M. DOCiOER (Kenora)j Mr, Speaker, 
I think v« should take a moment to see what the bill is. 
I have been trying to find the bill but have not had time, 

MBo SPEAKER: All you have to do is ask. 

MR. DOCKER: All right, Mr» Speaker. 

Motion agreed to and bill read the third time. 

MR, DREW: Order MOo 3o 

CLERK OF THE HOUSE: Third order, third reading of 
Bill No. 28, "An Act to amend the Territorial Districts Act," 
Mr<, Thompson. 

HON. WEBLBY a. THOMPSON (Minister of Lands and 
Forests) ; I move third reading of Bill KOo 28, •An Act 
to amend the Territorial Districts Act o* 

Motion agreed to and bill read the third time, 

MR, DREW: Fourth order. 

CLERK OF THE HOUSE: Fourth order, third reading 
of Bill Noo 29, "An Act to amend the Surveys Actj* Mr* 

HON. WESLEY Go THOMPSON (Minister of Lands and 
Fores-^s)? Mr. Speaker, I move third reading of Bill 
Noo 29, "An Act to amend the Surveys Act," 

Motion agreed to and bill read the third time. 

HON. GEORGE A» DREW (Prime Minister): Mr.Speaker, 
I wish to ask leave to withdraw from the Chamber in order 
to present the Lieutenant Governor, if you will permit. 


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- 401 - 2-27-45 

{The hoHo Prime Minister retired from the 
Chamber and after some time returned accompanying His 
Honour the Lieutenant Gove r nor o ) 

HON, ALBERT T, MATTHEWS (T.leutenant Governor of 
Ontario); Please be seatedo 

THE CLERK'S ASSISTANT: The following are the 
Bills to which Your Honour's assent is requested^ 

An Act to provide for the voting 
of Active Service voters at a general 
election to the Assembly. 

An Act to amend the Mental Hos- 
pitals Act. 

An Act to amend the Children's 
Protection Act. 

An Act to amend the Territorial 
Districts' Act. 

An Act to amend the Surveys' Act. 
CLERK OF THE HOUSE: In His Majesty's name, the 
Honourable the Lieutenant Governor assents to these bills, 

(His Honour the Lieutenant Governor retires 
from the chamber.) 

HON, GEORGE A, DREW (Prime Minister): Mr. Speaker, 
before proceeding with the further orders, I might explain 
that the reason for proclaiming the bills which have been 
proclaimed is so that the Attorney General's Department may 
proceed with the discussions with the Dominion authorities 
in connection with the regulations under the Active Service 
Elections Act, and until that was actually law it was not 
possible to take up the final drafting of the regulations 
with the authorities at Ottawao 
MR. SPEAKER: Orders. 

9dS eie T 


Tilltd Bi 


- 402 - 2-27-45 

im, DREW: Order NOo 7, 

CLERK OF THE HOUSE: Order NOo 7, resuming the 
adjourned debate on the motion for the consideration of 
the Speech of The Honourable the Lieutenant Governor, at 
the opening of the sessiono 

MR. E, Ba JOLLIFFE (Leader of the Opposition); 
Mr. Speaker, when this debate adjourned on Thursday, I 
had Just referred to the eighth point in the Progressive- 
Conservative Program of 1943, in which it was pledged to 
create an Ontario Housing Commission for the purposes 
of wiping out slums, improving home conditions in the cities, 
towns and country and providing postwar employment on a large 

With reference to this point, speaking on the 

radio on December 13th, the hon. Prime Minister said; 

•We undertook to set 
up an Ontario Housing Comr 
mission to plan housing through- 
out the provinceo We have 
gone beyond that undertaking 
by setting up a Department of 
Planning and Development which 
includes the work of such a 
commission and within its powers 
that undertaking has been fully 
carried out by setting up this 
new department in the GoverniTiento.* 

Now, Mro Speaker, how much has been done with 
respefrt to housing by the Department of Planning and 
Development remains to be seen, and as yet we have seen 
little or no evidence of it. However, the eighth point 
in the Progressive-Conservative program referred not only 
to postwar planning and better housipg, but it also refer- 
red to the elimination of slums, and I would invite the 
hono Minister of Planning and Development (Mr .Porter) to 
give the House the fullest information of what has been 
accomplished to date during the nine or ten months in 


- 403 - 2-27-45 

- Mr. Jolliffe 

which his department has been astabllshedo What has 
been established to date in a conerete way with respeet 
to the removal of our slums? 

Just after he was appointed, I think in the 
month of May, the hon. Minister told a gathering of 
Toronto architects, as reported in the Globe and Mail 
of May 5th, that the government ownership and control 
of housing projects will not be part of the program of 
the newly-formed Department of Planning and Develop- 
ment » 

Notwithstanding that statement to the effect 
that the Government would not be associated with owner- 
ship of new housing projects, the hono Minister was 
obliged to announce, according to the Globe and Mail 
of October 19th, that the Government would assume a 
share of the responsibility for providing adequate 
housing on a low- rental basis by agreeing to share 
with the municipalities fifty per cent of the equity 
subject to the National Housing Act, Part II o 

Now, I understand that to mean that the lend- 
ing institution approved under the National Housing Act 
would put up ninety per cent of the capital required, the 
municipalities five per cent, and the provincial Govern- 
ment would be responsible for five per cent. However, 
the subject referred to is that of low-cost housing — 
that is, low- rental housing for those in groups which are 
not in a position to pay the full cost of housing accom- 
modationo Every housing expert in the world to-day agrees 

that there are a great number of people in the low- income 

for them 
groups, and there will never be adequate housing within any 

foreseeable time without assistanoeo 

- 404 - 2-27»45 

Mro Jolllffe 

I say to the bono minister if he thinks five per 

cent represents the provincial share* of the responsibility 

for low-cost housing, and if he seriously thinks any 

adequate housing development will ever take place in this 

on that basis 
provinc^for the low-income group, then he is mistaken, 

because it will not take place on that basis, and such 
has been the experience in every other country which has 
undertaken better housing o The lending institutions are 
not interested in low-cost housing; they are interested in 
housing on a higher level, for people in the upper brackets 
of the working class groups and for the middle class people o 
But, our experience everywhere in this country, as well as 
others, has demonstrated beyond doubt that lending institu- 
tions are not interested in, and are in no position to cope 
with, the problems of low- cost housing for large numbers of 
our people, and neither is the private builder; and neitl^er 
is the working man himself, if he is in the low income group, 
and they can hardly be expected to take the initiative in 
low-cost housing, particularly when we have to expect — 
and we must expect — that from time to time, as a result 
of economic insecurity and depression conditions, legisla- 
tion will be introduced to protect the equity of the unemployed 
home owner o 

I was interested to hear in this debate the seconder 
of the Address, the hon. member for Peterborough (Mro Scott J, 
comment on the gravity of our housing problem and the existence 
of slxim conditions in this wealthy country at this time. I 
was pleased to notice his interest in the subject, too, when 
he went on to say, "As long as we have slums we will have 
communism and socialism and the likCo" I was very much 
tempted to remind him that so far we have not had communism or 

- 405 - 2-27->45 

Mrp Jolllffe 

socialism in this country, but what we have had for many 
years is Toryism, and still we have the slums » So, what 
the hono member might better have said is, "As long as we 
have Toryism, we will probably have the slums »* 

The ninth point of the twenty- two-point program 
pledged the Government party to encourage home ownership 
and home improvements by a sweeping revision of the whole 
system of real estate taxation ooimnencing with the payment 
by the Government of fifty per cent of the cost of education* 
This, Mro Speaker, has probably been the most discussed of 
all the twenty-two pointso It was discussed not only at 
^he time of the election and all during the last session, 
but very much since the last session^ 

Now, Mro Speaker, I hope that in discussing the 
matter we shall be able to keep some sense of proportion about 
It 8 and we shall be able to look at it in perspective. I 
ahftll endeavour to avoid anything in the nature of an extra- 
vagant statement, one way or the other, about the relief 
which is now promised to the municipalities of this pro- • 
vinee on account of their educational costs,, 

Tl^e first point I want to make, since I think it 
is essential that the whole njatter should be clarified, is 
this: The ninth point of the twenty- two points, in reality 
does not relate to education o The realsubject matter of 
Point NOo 9 is the financial position of the municipalities 
and their ratepayers. That was the real subject matter of 
the promise, and although education is affected in many 
respects, that is the point to which we should, in the first 
place, address ourselves <, 

As far as this group is concerned, we have urged, 
for many years, that the province should assume a larger 

406 - 2-87-45 


share of the cost of social services, not merely because 
of education, but because of our social service, because 
it is perfectly clear we are no longer living in the 
kind of society which existed in 1867, or even twenty 
years ago^ and it has become increasingly clear that the 
municipalities do not have power to finance adequate 
social services under modern conditions. 

We, therefore, welcome the decision which was 
announced by the hon. Prime Minister in December, the 
decision to give increased assistance to the municipali- 
tieso We welcome it in principle, but we are obliged 
to reserve our right to analyze and to criticize the 
manner in which the principle is being appliedo 

I think at this moment I should say that some 
very extravagant statements have been made, and continue 
to be made, about the benefits ^ich are likely to accrue 
from such a changco While we welcome increased assist- 
ance to the municipalities, let us not be carried away by 
wild and extravagant statements that this is going to 
mean an entirely new dispensation for the taxpayers or 
the municipalities of the provincco 

It is folly, in my submission, to talk as though 
some trivial reduction in real estate taxation will result 
in a great building boom in this province. Actually, Mr. 
Speaker, the financial position of the municipalities, as 
the hon. Provincial Treasurer very properly pointed out in 
his budget speech a year ago — the financial position 
of the municipalities to-day is very considerably better 
than it has been for years past* The total gross deben- 
ture debt of the Ontario municipalities has declined 
from |504,000p000 in 1932, to about $281i)000,000 in 1943, 

» 407 - 2"27-45 

MTo Jolliffe 

a decreases in eleven years, of more than $220, 000 » 000, 
in the total gross debenture debt of our municipalities o 

Total tax levies have been reduced from 
♦1279000»000 in 1932, to $111 ,00 0^000 in 1943o I think 
those are facts which must not be forgotten if we are 
going to think about this problem in a realistic way, and 
with a proper sense of proportlORo 

The actual savings to taxpayers, under the new 
scheme of general legislative grants, will be very small 
to the average taxpayer, and- I doubt if it is wise to en- 
courage them to believe that they are going to get very 
great savings, when, in fact, they are noto Even if the 
entire benefits of the grant were passed on to the 
taxpayers — which is not likely ^ in view of the fact that 
many of them, I think properly, desire to raise teachers' 
salaries to a better standard — > but even if the entire 
benefits were passed on to the taxpayers, the result 
would not be very substantial.. Unfortunate though 
that may be., we may as well face the facts, 

I can mention some representative cases where 
municipal authorities nave already computed what the saving 
is going to mean, if it is all passed on to the taxpayers » 
In the town of Parry Sound, the saving will amount to about 
49 per year per thousand dollar assessment, or, in other 
words, about $16 a year on an assessment of $2j,000o 

In York Township the saving, I am informed, will 
amount to about |4 or possibly $5 per thousand dollar 
assessment per yearo 

In the City of Gait, a middle-sized city, it 
will amount to $4ol4 per thousand dollar assessment, or, 
for the average home owner, probably about $9 a yearo 

408 - 2-27-45 


In the city of North Bay, it will amount to 
even less, $3,37 per thousand dollar assessments 

Then, if we turn to the much larger cities ;, in 
the City of Hamilton it will amount to $3,25 per thousand 
dollar assessment per year. And we are informed by the 
assessors of that city that their average home owner's 
assessment is in the neighbourhood of $2^000, so that 
in the average case the saving will amount to about 
$6o50 per yeara 

In the eity of Toronto, of course, it will be 
even less, and, assuming that It were all passed on to 
the taxpayers — which will not be the case -- but assum- 
ing that it were, the saving has been computed at $3o09 per 
thousand dollar assessment per year« 

Now, while these improvements are to be welcomed, 
I see no advantage whatever in extravagant statements 
being made to the effect that savings of from $5 to $20 per 
year will result in a new heaven and a new earth for our 
municipalities or our taxpayers. 

I am vei'y glad to hear that some of the rural 
municipalities — but by no means all of them — will 
benefit more than the large urban municipalities, and 
that is probably as it should be, in view of the disad- 
vantages under which they have laboured in matters of 
education. But even in their case the amount involved 
will be, at most, only a few dollars per person per year. 

I suggest, and with all respect to the rural 
municipalities, that it would be absurd to conclude that 
that kind of tax revision in itself will solve the problem 
of establishing proper educational standards throughout 
the rural areas of Ontario » 

- 409 - 2-27-45 


The Government, and the hon. Provincial Treasurer 
partioularly, have urged the municipalities that the 
benefits of the new grant be passed on to the taxpayers « 
I think the whole .House appreciates that in many cases 
that will Just be not possible, and in many cases it is 
not desirable, because of the need for improving education- 
al services, and in particular, for improving teachers* 

HON. GEORGE Ao DREW (Prime Minister): I do not 
want to interrupt the htpn. Leader of the Opposition (Mro 
Jolliffe), Mr. Speaker, but in case the hon. member does 
not know, that was explicitly stated to the school boards 
that teachers' salaries were not excludedo 

MRo JOLLIFFE: Oh, J know that; I am well aware 
of it, and I have said nothing to suggest that it has been 
forbidden. I think I am stating the position fairly when 
I say that the Government, and the hon. Provincial Treasurer 
in particular, have urged that the municipalities pass on 
the benefits of the new grant to the taxpayers. And 
the hon; Prim© Minister and Minister of Education will^ I 
assume, agree that the hon,, Provincial Treasurer has advised -■ 

MR. DREW: May I — 

MR» JOLLIFFSj Just a moment — has advised the 
school boards that the Government does not intend to prevent 
proper increases being granted to school teachers » 

Kow, I am quite well aware of that, and I do not 
think I have misstated the position when I say we must expect 
that considerable increases will be granted to school teachers 
— and very properly granted to school teachers — because 
we have recognized, in common with other political parties, 
with the Labour movement and many other organizationsg that 

- 410 - E-27-45 


a batter standard of teachers^ salaries must ba established 
throughout the province « 

However, the point I wanted to make was this; 
that the Government cannot have this thing both ways. If 
they are going to say, in one brea'^h, that the benefits 
of the new grant ought to be passed on to the taxpayers » 
and in the next breath that this change is going to 
equalize educational opportunities, then they are 
talking in highly contradictory language; they cannot 
have it both ways; if the taxpayers get the benefit, 
education will not get the benefit, and vice versfto 
I suppose the ultimate result will be a sort of com- 
promise between the twoo 

But what is more serious, Kr, Speaker, is 
the way in which the plan actually works out in its 
application, under the new regulations o Bhile we 
welcome increased assistance to the municipalities, 
we are regretfully bound to regard the new grant 
system as being highly inequitable in many respectso, 
Urban schools are receiving grants on a percentage of 
their approved costs for last yearo Now, everybody 
knows that some boards have had much more money to spend 
per capita than other boards <> That happened for a n\imber 
of reasons o In some cases it happened because prolonged 
depression weakened one municipality more than another* 
Some boards have had to meet a heavy influx of new popu- 
lation, particularly in recent years, without a cor- 
responding increase in tax reoeiptSo Some municipali- 
ties are, and always have been, much poorer than others, 
and their educational expenditures have been consistently 
and continuously lower than others o Some separate school 

- 411 - 2-27-45 

Mr» Jolllffe 

boards have had far less money to spend per pupil than 
other boards, and far less than was required to provide 
anything like equality of educational opportunities* 

All these examples of disparities and injustices 
are, in my submission, aggravated by the new grants system* 
The more money an urban board spent last year — that la, 
the greater their approved costs last year — the more they 
will receive from the province this year. The less they were 
able to spend last year, the less they will receive from the 
provincial government this year. It simply means that the 
Government is being more generous to the strong than they 
are to the weak, and it is my hope that some method will 
be found of correcting that highly obvious injustice to 
many of the municipalities of this province. 

I have a further suggestion to urge upon the 
Government, namely, that an arrangement should be made to 
make advances to the municipalities in the spring — or 
perhaps I should say, to the school boards in the spring — 
toward their 1945 educational costs. The present policy 
of payment in the fall or autumn forces some municipalities 
to borrow now against the grant to be received later, and 
even if the grant to be received later will be larger 
than it was last year, they will still be facing that 
difficulty. It costs them more money to borrow than it 
would cost the Provincial Treasurer, and since he Wa 
able to tell us last year that the treasury is in a much 
more liquid position than for some time past, when he was 
able to report, I think, a reduction of $40,000,000 last 
year in treasury bills, it should be possible — it should 
not be difficult — to arrange practical assistance of that 
kind to our school boards. 

- 412 - 2-27-45 

Mr. JoUiffe 

I am very much puzxled indeed by one devel(q)ment 
In connection with school costs » and that is the fate of 
the Hope CS^ommlssion or Conmltteeo. During last session, it 
was announced to this House, Just before the budget, that 
because of the complexity of this proDipm, the Government 
found it necessary to appoint a royal commission — that 
was the term used, I am certain, by the hon. Provincial 
Treasurer -- to investigate the whole question, and we 
were given to understand that it would take time and would 
involve a very exhaustive inquiry into many associated 
matters, as well as the specific problem of grants to our 
school boards. 

Little or nothing was heard of that Commission 
during the summer, except that one of His Majesty's Judges 
was announced as having accepted appointment as chairman. 
And when the hon. Prime Minister made his announcement in 
December regarding the new scheme of legislative grants^ 
for which the municipalities were to receive the details 
about the middle of December, there was no report of the 
work of the Royal Commissiono There was merely the assur- 
ance that the Hope Committee — as he now referred to it -- 
would continue to investigate the problem. I think the 
House, in view of what we were told last year, is entitled 
to some further enlightenment on the general subject of 
that inquiry o 

The House, I am sure, would be interested to 
know what facilities will be offered, and at what time, 
for all interested organizations to make representations 
to this committee or commission, whatever it may be -- and 
I can think of many municipalities, and many other bodies, 
which would wish to place their case before such an inquiry* 

- 413 - 2-27-45 

Mr» Jolliffe 

Now, Mr. Speaker, what I have been discussing was, 
I inay say, not the education point in the Progressive Con- 
servative program, but that point which related to the 
financial position of our municipalities and their tax- 

It was the next point -- No« 10 -- which actually 
related to education, and it was a most specific and sweep- 
ing pledge which was made by the Government, No, 10 reads: 

•To give every child an 
education to the full extent of 
its mental capacity, together 
with vocational instruction for 
farm or city lifso* 

1 would willingly concede that a program as 
ambitious as that one would take some time to fulfil, but 
in our view, that promise, apart from a few changes, and 
perhaps a few improvements in the educational system of 
this province, is not being seriously kept. In my view, 
the Government has been making such a noise about the 
other point, the one that relates to municipalities and 
their educational costs, that their admirers and supporters 
have been losing sight of the pledge made to every child, 
because Point No. 9 was essentially a promise made to the 
children of this province, and their needs are entitled 
to just as much consideration in this House — and, in 
my opinion, more — than that of those who are able to 
make so much noise about their taxeso 

There has been some increased assistance by way 
of scholarships to some of the students of Ontario, and 
as far as it goes it is praiseworthy, but we believe it 
to be but a drop in the bucket. It does not compare with 
the facilities which have been created in Great Britain 
through the years for the assistance of students of merit. 

- 414 - 2-27-46 

Mr. J"oi).iffe 

both in the secondary schools and in the universities. 

When I attend a British university, I was 
informed by one of the authorities of that university 
that more than fifty per cent of the under- graduates 
of that day would not be attending that university, would 
not be there at all, were it not for the assistance they 
were receiving in some form, either from the university 
itself, from the oantral government, or from the muni- 
cipalities, from which they came. 

I do not think that our scholarship progress 
in this province compares in any way favourably with that 
long since developed in Great Britain, and while the 
Government is entitled to take some credit for whatever 
improvement there has been, let them not imagine that 
the problem has been met in any wayo 

And, secondly, although I do not want to return 
to the question of municipal financing, I will say this, 
that there can be no real equality of opportunity for the 
children of Ontario until the amount spent on education 
per child in each municipality is approximately the same, 
having regard to the varying conditions o Until that 
time comes, until all the children of this province get 
an education as costly as the best, or the opportunity 
to receive that education, there is nothing like equality 
of educational opportunities — nothing that even remotely 
resembles it. One group of school children in the city 
of Toronto have the experience of obtaining their primary 
education at a cost, in 1943, of less than $50 per child, 
and another large group of school children in the city 
of Toronto, attending public schools, financed also by 
the taxpayers, were educated at a cost, in 1943, of over 

- 415 - 2-27-45 

Mr, Jolliffe 

$109 per child. How can anyone possibly say there is 
any resemblance whatever to equality of opportunity, in 
a situation of that kind, and we find nothing in the 
Government's program to show that iheasures are being 
taken to remove the gross disparity between the oppor- 
tunities available to some, and the opportunities avail- 
able to others. 

Similarly, Mr* Speaker, Point No, 11 of the 
22 Points, was equally sweeping in its pledge to the 
children of Ontario, The promise was to assure all 
children — all of them — adequate medical and adequate 
dental services and health protection. Is there a 
single hon, member of this House who would, for a moment, 
suggest that all the children of Ontario are getting ade- 
quate medical, adequate dental and health protection, or, 
if the present Government goes on, will they get it ten 
years from now or twenty years fi'om now, on the basis of 
the kind of program presented to us- by the Speech from 
the Throne, and by the hon. Minister of Health (Mr. 
Vivian) whenever he has had the courage to speak to us? 
It just has not been doae. 

There is a very lengthy passage on Health in 
the Speech from the Throne, and I am amazed to find, in 
spite of Point No, 11, that it does not contain a single 
reference to the health of the children of Ontario. It 
contains references to other matters which do involve 
children, but there is no specific reference whatever to 
the children, to whom that sweeping pledge was made in 
July, 1943. 

The Government has continued and extended — 
and perhaps improved in some respects — many of the measures 

- 416 - 2-27-45 

Mr. Jolllffe 

initiated by previous administrations in connection with 
industrial and social diseases, tuberculosis, mental 
hospitals, cancer control, and so on. Patchwork measures, 
all of them. Valuable for what they are, and I am sure 
such work would have to be continued and extended by any 
Administration. But essentially they are only nibbles 
at the problem of health, nibbles at the edges of one of 
our greatest problems. 

The Grovernment has increased grants to mental 
and other hospitals, but I think they could do no other, 
in view of the need and in view of their greatly increased 
revenue , 

Mr. Speaker, in the Speech from the Throne the 

claim is made that the Government, or the Department of 

Health, have the cooperation of the medical profession. 

I am greatly relieved to hear it, because some people 

might have suggested that the profession had not very 

much cooperation from the Government, if they were to 

accept what was said in the Journal of the Canadian 

Medical Association, of May, 1944, where the following 

report appeared, under the heading of "Ontario*: 

"A special meeting of the 
Council of the Ontario Medical 
Association was held in Toronto 
on March 21. The purpose of' the 
meeting was to discuss the Health 
Bill which had just been passed ■ 
by the Legislature of Ontario. 
The Bill had been hastily prepared., 
without any consultation with any 
of the Interested parties. The 
Council was assured that the bill 
had been already enacted, but the 
actual enactment took place at a 
later date. The Minister of 
Health and the Attorney General 
addressed the Council at luncheon, 
and explained the necessity and 
the purpose of the new legislation.* 

I can well remember, Mr. Speaker, when some of us 

- 417 - 2-27-45 

Mr. Jolliffe 

were so bold as to suggest that that particular ineasure had 
been prepared in a hurry, and we were frowned upon from 
great professional heights, and now we find, according to the 
official organ of the Canadian Medical Association, that the 
bill had been hastily prepared, without consultation with 
the interested parties. 

However, Mr. Speaker, to progress to a more imr 
portent matter, and probably a much more significant one 
to the hon. Minister of Health, I want to urge upon him 
what we believe to be a perfectly feasible suggestion, 
which his Government* or any other government of Ontario, 
might well be proud to attempt. 

I am going to state it as carefully and clearly 
as I can, as I wish to make it perfectly plain at the out- 
set that it is not being put forward in any partisan way, 
but as a constructive suggestion which we hope will be 
seriously considered. 

No matter what approach we adopt, it would be 
several years before a full-fledged system of modern 
health services could be established in Ontario* That 
much delay is inevitable, due to the present shortage of 
both personnel and buildings. It takes time to train 
doctors and build hospitals* 

The shortage of personnel will not be so acute 
if the war ends. But even then, after the return of all 
the doctors and nurses to civilian life, we shall need 
many more doctors, many more dentists, nurses and other 
personnel. As for the deficiency in buildings and equip- 
ment, it 'is probably worse than the deficiency of personnel, 
and unfortunately very few plans are ready for construction. 

Admitting all these difficulties, we are anxious 

- 418 - 2-27-45 

Mr. Jolllffe 

to assure the best type of health care for our people, to 
be initiated and developed as quickly as possible. We of 
the CCF have consistently advocated a system of socialized 
health services, because we i»elieve that both the weight of 
evidence and the lessons of experience show that such a 
system would produce the best results for both the general 
public and the personnel of the health services. 

But what could be done now and what we challenge 
the Grovernment to do is this: Give the system of socialized 
health services and its rival systems a fair trial, a truly 
scientific testing in three or four experimental areas in 

There are many like ourselves who favour socialized 
health services. There are others who favour a type of health 
insurance such as the Haggarty plan which has been under 
consideration at Ottawa. ■ Still others defend the present 
system and oppose both socialized health services and 
health insurance. Why not give these three systems a 
thorough testing in three similar areas in Ontario? 

Of course, it would be necessary to make the 
test by the scientific method — that is, by checking and 
by the use of controlled and re- checked observations and 
experiments objectively recorded with complete statistics 
and with Absolute honesty and without fear or favour, in 
all these three experimental areas. 

We say that three areas in Ontario should be 
selected and they should be comparable areas, in connec- 
tion with their population. They should contain both 
oity and country people so that we will be able to get 
results for both urban and rural populations under both 
conditions. In one area you would establish a complete 

- 419 - 2-27-45 

Mr. Jolllffe 

system of socialized health services, staffed by people 
who believe in that system. In the second area you would 
set up a health insurance scheme under the Haggarty Plan 
of operation. In the third area, you could let the 
present system operate as it does now, subjeet to this, 
that in all probability the Ontario Medical Association 
should be invited to supervise it in order to ensure that 
that system does get an adequate trial, and that a team 
of statisticians, independently appointed, should be the 
collectors of complete records and complete statistics 
for the results in that area. Notwithstanding the pre- 
sent shortage of personnel and materials we believe that 
sufficient doctors and nurses would become available or 
will soon be available to give a fair trial to these 
three systems in three* areas in Ontario* 

We know it dould not be done throughout the 
whole province but it could be done in three representa- 
tive areas, and if the Ontario Mihister of Health were 
to launch such an experiment I think he would be naking 
historyo The thing has never been done before in any 
country at any time. No scientific comparison of the 
various health services is available, absolutely none» 
Different systems have been tried in different countries 
but they cannot be scientifically compared as to results 
because the initial conditions were so very different. 

The Dominion Government also professes to be 
interested in health services, and in their improvement. 
I suggest to the Ontario Minister of Health that he 
challenge the Hon. Brooke Claxtpn, the federal minister, 
to cooperate financially and otherwise in making such 
an experiment in the province of Ontario* Probably 

420 - 2-27-45 

Mr. Jolliffe 

Ontario is the only province where the thing could be done» 
probably the only province where there are available three 
coraparable areas in which the experiment could be carried 
on. I do not believe that such conditions do exist in 
other provinces o So all I am proposing is that the Govern- 
ment engage in ^scientific experiment of great social 
importance, which is feasible, which can be undertaken 
within a reasonable period of time and which will provide 
results of greatest value to the people of this province, 
to the Dominion and even to other lands. 

I might say that there is evidence in support 
of the suggestion from the Speech from the Throne itself 
because we are there told that there is •a total lack of 
reliable information as to the cost of operating ccm- 
prehensive curative health services.* Here is a chance 
for the Government to find out, and one of the results 
which could be ascertained from such an experiment would 
be the actual cost of operations in all three cases. 

Other results in which we are all interested, 
of course, would be the mortality rates, the morbidity 
rate and other information which I am sure the Minister 
will agree are not available to him now as he would like 
them to be available. 

But we, in urging that three areas should be 
selected for the purpose, have in mind, of course, that 
the consent of the people in these areas would be 'obtained, 
and the test would not only provide services for them but 
results for general use. In the meantime, of course, the 
rest of the province could not be included and I would assume 
that any administration in office would do its utmost to 
make progress. The services in the other areas would 

- 421 - 2-27-45 

Itr. Jolliffe. 

be provided according to the method considered moat saitable 
by the government of the day, Haarever, it would be, I think, 
advisable to develop the services in the other areas in 
such a manner that they could be adapted or further im- 
proved in the li^t of the results obtained in the experi- 
mental areas. 

May I say in leaving the matter that we are ^ust 
as convinced as we ever were that the peoples* health 
could be better served by a system of socialized health 
services than by any other. However, we believe in the 
scientific method and, unlike some of our critics, we are 
^ite prepared to allow it to beput to the test and we 
would welcome any fair test which would provide results 
lowing what act-ually happened under all three systems 
or even under a fourth, if the Minister desires to try 
out his municipal Health Service scheme oJT last year, 
and if our proposal is not accepted by the ProvinciaL or 
Federal Go'vernments, we can only conclude that they do ndt 
believe in the scientific m.ethod or the scientific approach 
to a great social problem or they are afraid off the results, 

Mx. Speaker I am happy to inform you and the House 
tljiftt I shall not be as long on some of the remainder of 
thdi Tw*nty-Tow Points as I have been on the first Eleven, 
I aa half way through now. It is not that there is not a 
great d9$.l I couH ss^r about the other eleven but I have 
in mind that others, I trust, will have an opportunity to 
speak in this debate. 

Point No, 12 pledged the government to prepare 
immediately province-wide j^l^s for post-war employment, 
I suppose this brings me back to the Minister fi3r "Planning 
and Developmoat, We were told al-so by the Premier on the 
radio during the cairpaigh that steps will be taken immediate- 
ly to prepare plans tot great public undertakings which 

- 422 " 2-27-45 

Mr. JollifTe. 

will create entployment in the period of readjustment immediate- 
ly after the war. 

How, I do not want to be -unfair to the Minister 
03t to the Government but I think we are entitled to ask the 
CLuestion: where are the plans? Unless we hear them very 
fully and convincingly explained in this debate at this 
Session by the Prime Minister or by the Minisrter for Planning 
and Development we shall be forced to conclude that they are 
still nebulae, that they exist in the imagination <£ the 
Government rather than in any concrete or definite fo^m. Of 
course a good deal depends on the whole approach to the matter 
of planning. If it is thought that planning consists in 
making helpful suggestions to people who have little money 
to invest then I think no doubt that can be done by any 
fourth-rate minister, but we believe that the problems of the 
day and the problems of to-morrow call for much more than a 
few simple suggestions to people with a little money to invest, 
which they perhaps will be too afraid to invest anyway. So 
far all we have from the Government is the reaffirmation 
that they will do everything they can to encourage and assist 
private enterprise and will spend some money on public works. 
Now, with regard to encouraging and assisting private enter- 
prise I would like to know what that amotmt s to anymore than 
a few helpful suggestions and holding a few conferences at 
which people can bandy back and forth the kind of suggestions 
which might be also bandied back and forth in this House if 
we had time but which do not addup to any real and construc- 
tive planning. As for public woifes , as for spending some 
millions on new buildings required by the Province itself amd 
highways and o-ftier worthy developments — well, what Govern- 
ment in the world would not spend some money on public works 
after six years of war? After six years of allowing our pub- 


- 423 - 2-27-45 

Mr, Jolliffe. 

lie properties to run doiwi, which was the only thing to do 
under the circumstances. What Government would not spend 
millions on improvements after the war? But allow me to sug- 
gest to the Minister and the Government that no anount of 
Rooseveltian or New Deal srpending on public works, and no 
amoTint of prattling about free enterprise and private 
initiative will break the back of the unenployment pro- 
blem in this country. 

It is all very well to spend millions upon 
millions on useful presets, most of them non-productive 
projects, which are a long-term asset but do not result in 
the production of real wealth at any foreseeable future time. 
That ia all very well but as Rooseveltians and New Dealers 
found out, it is not enough and it will not solve tmem- 
ployment in this country nor will it do enough to reduce 
^emplQyment in Ontario so far as the Province can do that 
Job. Tbsrefore, if the Government are pinning their faith 
on some ambitious works proja'Cts then I would say there 
is not very much hope from this Government for men ^o 
hope to find employment in us;efal and productive jdbs. 

The fact of the matter is, of course, most em- 
ployment of real importance and most of the, employment 
which will result in the production oJT new wealth, which 
along will make possible a higher standard ct living in 
this country, most of that employmmt is in productive 
fields which are now operated by private enterprise or by 
monopoly enterprise, a field into which the Government i3 
not prepared to enter. If the responsibility of employ- 
ment is to be delegated to these people then we shall ex- 
perience the same difficulty we experienced before this 
war when the same thing was being done for the same reason 

- 424 - 2-27-45 

Mr. Jolliffe. 

by previous administrations. 

I might add in this connection that many munici- 
palities and local rehabilitation committees have already 
done all the planning that th^ reasonably can be expected 
to do. Some of them have been active for years and they 
see now they are at a dead-end. Any number of than will 
tell you they feel they Just cannot go any further until 
they know more definitely what the Dominion Government is 
going to do and what th® Provincial Government ia going 
to do, if anything. I think they are entitled to know. 
We cannot expect this Govemne nt to tell them what the 
Dominion will do. I do not know what we can expect the 

Government of Ontario to tell the municipalities in this 
Province anyway what they can expect in the way of planning, 
so that they caa look for financial or other assistance 
from the Province in the post-war year. 

And Point number Thirteen: the Government 
pledged itself to free the Hydro-Ele;ctric fiom political 
control and to give rural Ontario the benefit of lo^ 
power rates and to remove the service charges for farms. 
Well, I would be the first to admit -that in some respects 
that promise has been kept. I do not expect to discuss 
this point at any great length but I do want tosuggest to 
the hon. Minister without portfolio who speaks for hydro 
in this house, or did last year — I do not think I have 
heard him this year — I want to suggest to him that he 
explain exactly what he means by political control. I 
think he ought to define exactly vihat he thinks the 
relationship should be between the Government and the 
Commission. We invite him to explain to the House, as 
I think we are entitled to know the details, all about 
the properties which have been acquired in the past year. 

- 42^ - 2-27-45 

Kr. Jolliffe. 

Until now announcement has been nade only about the bare 
outlines of these transactions. I am not rubier tafcing to 
criticize those transactions at the moment. I think, 
however, that the Minister should tell us more about th«m. 
The acquisition of the Northern Ontario Power Company- 
was one of great importance particularly tc^ the people in 
the Hoirfch and I think h« wuld do well to give us all the 
details about that transaction, I invite him also to tell 
us fully what the plans are for the expansion into rural 
areas. I know some gen»ral statements have been made about 
it by the Government but I suggest we might go into further 
detail in connection with that matter and probably he can . 
tell us what the policy of the Government is vlth reggrect 
to plans for new development in Eastern Ontario, As we 
are all aware great possibilities for industrialization 
exist there. I think it would be well in that connection 
for the Government to tell vb all they are in a position 
to tell us at thistim^, AgaJLn, about the future of the . 
St. Lawrence waterway, i"f it has aiy future • — which I am 
not in a position to say. 

That project, with certain nacessary limitations, 
is, I suggest, a proper project for report and discussion 
in this House. I suggest, also, that he might tell -us not 
only about the Government's views regarding political con- 
trol of the Commission, but also the Government's view 
about the relationship oS thse Commission to private enter- 
prise, and then the relationship to the great corporatLonas 
whicha^ply so much electrical equipment, ariL its relatioflyr 
dii-p to the private power companies which s^ill exist in 
some parts of this province and on the borders of this 

By point Ho. 14 the Conservative Party undertook 
to reclaim \inused land throughout the province for the 
settlement of retiirned men and their families on a so-unS. 

- 42 6 - 2-27-45 

1^. Jolliffe. 

economic basis, under the guidance of veterans* 

Mr, Speaker, I have very little to say about 
this, but what I do have to say js said seriously. 

There is much unused land throughout the province, 
some of it sub-marginal land, unsuitable for agriculture, 
which should be recognized as such, some of it marginal 
land, which could not be farmed satisfactorily unless 
adeq.uate capital expenditures weramade for drainage and 
improvements, and unless the prices now charged by the 
monopolies for fertilizer and implements were substantially 
reduced, and unless the farmers receive much better prices 
after the war than they have averaged during the past twenty 

Now, apparently, I take it, - the Gtovernment can 
correct me if I am wrong, ~ but I talce it their philosophy 
is with respect to agriculture, iiiat capital expenditures 
should be left to private enterpeise, and, secondly, the 
monopoly corporations which arenow in control of the 
fertilizer and inrplement businesses must not be interfered 
with, even where they could be interfered with by the pro- 
vince, for, after all, they stand for the sacred cow of 
free enterprise. 

And, thirdly, fai*m prices, even though the 
province could occasionally grant a stibsidy here or there, - 
farm prices are to remaia at the mercy of the processing 
companies upon ^at has been called the theory of a free 
market, but as a matter of fact, it has not been free for a 
long time. If that is the philosophy of the Government 
with respect to establishing people on the land and veterans 
on the land, then we feel there is not much hope for any- 
body who tries to farm on reclaimed or unused or abandoned 

- 427 - 2»27-4^ 

Mr. Jolli:rfe. 

land, and I think most Cajiadians, particularly thoae who 

know anything about land settlement schemes after the iast 

war, will be much too intelligent to even try it, I notice 

thft number viito are willing to go on the land at the present 

time of thoae discharged from the Armed Forces are very 

small, indeed. 

I was interested to notice in the speech from the 

Throne delivered a week or ten days ago in the Saskatchewan 

legislature it was said with respect to that province, 

"My Government has reached an agreement with 
those who administer the Veterans' Land Act 
to allow debt-free grants for the -purchase 
of stock, eq.uipment and improvements to 
returned men settling on Crown lands. Crown 
lands are now being withheld from sale, and 
will be available on special terms for settle- 
ment by ret"urned men, 

"Throu^out the whole of this resettlement 
policy, it has been one of the purposes cf 
my Government to assist in the re-establish- 
raent of these men on some other baai s than 
one which promises only an accu^ulati-o^ of 
debts. Thus it hopes to assist in avoiding- 
one of the major mistakes of land settlement 
schemes subsequent to the first w&rld war," 

That is a quotation from the speech from the Throne 
in the Saskatchewan Legislature on, I believe, February 15th 
of this jwar , and that sigreement which was entered into 
between the Saskatchewan Government, represented by the hon, 
John Sturdy, a man with long experience i^ settlement affairs, 
will mean in that province, at least, the Vettjxans will have 
a chance to acquire some land, the necessary capital and 
eqLuipment, (without acc-umulating a load of debt) which a great 
majority of our veteran experienced in the years after the 
last war, 

I come now, Mr, Speaker, to point Ho, 15, viiich was, 
I suppose, nothing new in -the way of election promises, but 
it was, in a sense, important, - to reduce taxes by stopping 
provincial government services w:|.-tti duplie^-te federal services, 

- 428 - 2-27-4^ 

Mr. Jolliffe. 

except where essential to the maintexance of constitution- 
al rights* 

As far as I know, there were no tax reductions ]a st 
year. It might not have been possible, but as far as I 
know there were not any. The revenues of the province 
compared very favourably wi-th the previous years, but there 
were no tax reductions that I can find. There was one 
increase, which we did not oppose, and that was last year's 
budget . 

I think the Government should tell us, in detail, 
what provincial services duplicated federal services in 
the affairs of the adminiatration. I take it it is 
referring to unnecessary services which previously existed, 
but we would like to know what duplication there was, aiad. 
what was it the Progressive-Conservative Party had in mind, 
and what has been done about it. 

How, Mr, Speaker, I am sorry to see that my good 
friend, the hon. Provincial Secretary (Mr, Dunbar), is not 
in the House, because I had a few remarks to make for hia 
particular benefit. It was point No, l6 of the twenty- 
two points which offered the promise to drive politics 
out of the Civil Service, so that civil servants need no 
longer fear for their jobs, thus increasing governmental 
efficiency. We are pleased to notice reference in th« speech 
from the Throne to propose amendments to the Public Service 
Act, and we hope they will have the effect of improving 
the security of our civil servants, becanse we would certainly 
agree most of tUiem have been doing excellent work under 
difficult conditions. 

The hon. Prime Minister (Mr. Drew), speaking on 
the radio on December 15 th, said, reference to the 

- 429 - 2-27-4^ 

Mr, Jolliffe. 


"We said we would put the Civil Service upon a 
aaund basis, and protect civil servants from 
political dismissal or interferance. That we 
have done. Affairs (£ the Civil Service are now 
under the guidance and review of the Civil 
Sei'vice Advisory Board, made up entirely of 
civil servants themselves. Our system is now 
very similar to that which has worked out so well 
in Britain. It will continue to improve under 
the advice and guidance of civi). servants working 
in cooperation with the Government." 

How, apparently the Government's policy is to give 
security to the civil servants it does not wish to fire, 
and- insecurity to the rest of them, hut where the line was 
to be drawn, I do not know. The hon. Provincial Secretary 
(Mr. Dunbar), has talked very freely on that subject, and 
I am sorry he is not here now, because, personally, I con- 
sider him to be one of the most likeable members of this 
House, and perhaps the fact he does so much talking<cwrt of 
turn is one of the things that makes him so likeable, not- 
withstanding the. hon. Prime Minister's claim that the stand- 
ards in our servise are comparable with these of th® British 
Civil Ser-vice, The hon. Provincial Secretary has no le ss 
than three departments on his hands to look after, and after 
I had criticized the Government's revival of the patronage 
system in some of the services, the hon. Provincial Secretary 
(Mr. Dunbar) was reported by the "Toronto Daily Star", speak- 
ing to a meeting of party members at the good city ot Chatham, 
Ontario, and, according to the "Star", this is wlmt he said, - 
apparently he had taken offence at some remark I had made, 
although most of my remarks have been inoffensive, he said, 

•*!ft.s for my own Departments, no one can dictate 
to me,' Mr, Dunbar told Kent Progressive-Conser- 
vatives. Where ^'little patronage' Jobs were con- 
cerned, he said he would discharge or replace, 
as he saw fit. 'You', he told the Progressive- 
Conservatives, 'are now on the inside, ILooking out. 
We'll tell Mr, Jolliffe we're here and you are 

- 430 - 2-27-45 

Mr. Jolliffe. 

When we heard of this fine talk about our stand- 
ards being like those of the famous British service,- really, 
I am obliged to tell the hon. Provincial Secretary (^Ir. 
Dunbar) that the kind of language he is reported as using 
at Chatham is not that of Westminster. That is the language 
of Chicago, - possibly Louisiana, 

I do wish to seriously suggest that this war did 
provide a great opportunity for the reformation of the 
Civil Service and the abolitipn of ths patronage system, for 
reasons which are well known to everybody. The pressure on 
the administration in office for jobs decreased during the 
war, and I do not think it is very great at the present time. 
I would expect, however, that failing the establishment of 
satisfactory standards of merit in oxir Civil Service the end 
of the war, and a surplus of labour, is going to mean a 
return of the pressure which previous governments have known 
and from which many previous Ministers have suffered. There- 
for e, I say that the past four or five years have provided 
an opportunity, perhaps a unique opportunity, to establish real 
civil service standards and to assure that the positions in 
our service will be filled with people of high quality, who 
will be able to give distinguished service and enjoy the 
sectrpity of their positions. 

Point Ko, 17, the Progressive-Conservative Party 
pledged to give every citizen the ri^t todefend his person 
and property before the courts, I think the Government 
might well explain how that has been done. It is perfectly 
obvious, in scane of the legislation before this House, there 
are cases where it is not feasible to interpret that promise 
literally, 7/hat I wish to say is, in the case of many (£ 
our citizens having free access to the courts, it does not 
mean very much unless they have the economic means with 

- 431 - 2-27-4^ 

Mr. Jolliffe. 

which to go to the eotirts and assert their ri^ts. 

Point Ko. 18, we have three promises, - to increase 
the mothers' allowances and old-age pension, and to relieve 
old people from the obligation of peirting with their homes 
before they can become eligible for their small pensions. 
Many of the allowances ard pensions have been increased, and 
the increases are welcome, ajadi I think fully deserved, but 
we still have large numbers of people on pensions and mothers* 
allowances who are not getting the full allowances. I know 
the rules provide for certain deductions, but it is extra- 
ordinary how many cases we discovered upon enquiry are entitled 
to the full allowances. It may be that the Department of 
Welfare is understaffed, but, whatever the explanation may be, 
there seem to be a great many cases v/here people who turn 
out to be ent tried to full allowances get much less. I think 
we should hear what is likely to happen to the- recipients of 
the mothers' allowances if, as and v/hen the Fed^eral Family 
Allowances' Act takes effect in July. Will their allowances 
from the Federal Government be charged against the allowances 
they are entitled to receive from the Provincial Government? 
If not, in what respect will there be a charge made? I think 
the Government is to be congratulated on the successful 
negotiations with the Dominion Government in removing the re- 
striction upon holding of property by pensioners up to a 
limit of two thousand dollars. 

That was a promise which the Provincial Government, 
of itself, could not carry out, as I understand the law, but 
it has been done by negotiation, and I think full credit 
can be given for what has been done. 

Point No. 19, - the Government undertook to assure 
the public of adequate sapplies of jftiel, milk and other 
necessities. That has not been done, and probably could not 

- 432 - 2-27-45 

Mr. JoUiffe. 

be done by the present Government. I simply take thla 
oppoctunity of pointing out no sach rash promise was made 
by the Party with which I am identified. Believe it or not, 
the Party with ^ich I am identified did make a serious 
effort in drafting its 1943 election programme to confine 
itself to matters within provincial Jvirisdietion, and made 
no such reckless promises as this one in Point 1? gf the 
twenty-two points. 

Point No« 20 was a promise to assure priority of 
employment to men and women who have served in the Armed 
Forces. The principle of priority or seniority is well and 
good, but I think we should turn our attention to the other 
problem from which we are not going to escape, and that is 
a problem of our men in the Armed Forces* 

I am aware a young man returning to-day, discharged 
from the services, is entitled to get his job back in the 
provincial service. For that natter, he would be entit],ed 
to that under private enterprise, but what is of far more 
importance is thia: What happens in the case of a yo\ing 
man who enlisted possibly at nineteen years' of age, when he 
held a very, very junior position in the Service or in the' 
Hydro, or whatever it might have been? He returns five or 
six years later, no longer a boy, aifi very likely he has 
acquired a wiife and two or three children in the interim. 
He has assumed, it may be, in many cases, much larger 
responsibilities and he has been told that he can have his 
old job back with the old responsibilities and at very much 
the same rate of pay. In many cases the old job is almply a 
meaningless thing; and inftiiat they are interested in Icnowing 
is what opportxinity they will have in employment with adequate 
remuneration for them and their families, so that they can 
carry on. 

- 433 - 2-27-43 

Mr. Jolliffe. 

The Gocrernment was olng to protect returned men 
and their dependents against mortgage foreclosures, insurance 

cancellations and other unjust financial embarrassment by 
creditors, who were to be reasonably protected by the court. 

I thinlc the Government has attempted to implement 
that promise in the legislation which they made last year, 
euad I believe it to be of some value. But I would say this, 
that, notwithstanding that protection, it is deplorable that 
do many men on active service with families have had 

difficulties in getting a home of any kind. And it is de- 
plorable that housing conditions were not dealt with earlier 
by the Government, which has been in power since Augist of 


I often wonder what would have happened in thia 

Province if we had experienced sane s.erious bombing, if our 

cities or some of them had been shattered by air raids, I 

ariiudder to think what would have happened v;ith referene-e to 

housing, because the necessary organization ani arrangements 


have not been in existence in this Province to cope even with 
the minor problems we have had for housing soldiers and 
war workers and others. 

Point No. 22 referred to the rehabilitation and social 
security committee, whida was to be appointed immediately, 
which would be instructed to draw plans which would assure 
security for all the people and also provide for the rehabili- 
tation and employment of the members of our armed forces and 
munition workers after the war. 

Mr. Speaker, that brings us back to the same old pro- 
cedure. I am not aware that any constructive plans have yet 
seen the li^t of day, so far as the committee is concerned. 
If there are such plans, then, if they have any merit they 
should be brought out into Ihe open. 

- 434 - 2-27-45 

Mr. Jolliffe. 

What we would like to Icnow, among other things, is 
what is being done to co-ordinate the Provincial plans with 
those of the Dominion and the municipalities. So far as the 
Dominion is concerned. It may be necessary tq wait for the 
Dominion-Provincial conferonee; but there is no use waiting 
about the other. Have they any idea of what plans are 

Even this Legislature has not been informed of 
what the Government has in mind about social legislation. We 
have only general assurances, and have towait to find out 
what the policy is, and what the Government will do in connec- 
tion with social security if and «to.en that conference takes 

I think we will be told that the Government intends 
to encourage private enterprise and social security when 
planning for the post-war period. Now, Mr. Speaker, I think 
it is necessary for me to say that in our judgment this 
Session of the House is faced with certain important issues, 
some of which arise out of the Government's program a£ 1943, 
mention of which even at that time and since has been made, 
one of these is niational unity. It is involved, certainly in 
the whole of the discussion which we have heard regarding 
the Dominion-Provincial conference. 

In this group we believe that a Dominion-Provincial 
conference is long overdue and ought to have been held long 
before this. We believe, even now when serious difficulties 
di viae the Dominion and several Provincial governments, such , 
a conference ought to be held wtthout any farther delay. 
We believe, however, that a good deal of give and take will 
be required from all, if such a conference is to succeed; and 
we are not prepared to accept the argument that all the lack 
of co-operation has been on the one side in connection with 

- 43^ - 2-27-45 

Mr. Jolliffe. 

this n&tter. ' 

During the months of February, March, April and 
June of last year there was a lengthy correspondence between 
the Prime Minister and the Prime Minister of Canada regard- 
ing a proposed preliminary meeting to prepare for a Dominion- 
Provincial conference. It is not my Intention, unless it is 
necessary to place the details before the House, to read 
that correspondence to the House, although I will do so if 
necessary to establish the point. 

The point is that the Governments of the Provinces 
were invited by the Dominion to send a senior civil servant 
to Ottawa for the purpose of some preliminary work looking 
toward the holding of a conference in 1944. And, for reason 
which he set out in the correspondence, which seemed good 
enough to him, the Prime Minister declined to do that until 
certain conditions which he laid down were complied with by 
the Dominion Government. How, perhaps the Prime Minister of 
this Province was doing the right thing. It may be that he 
was perfectly justified in thinking that he ou^t to know more 
about the proposed conference before going to Ottawa, or • • 
thought that the Province could only be properly represented 
by a minister and not by a civil servajit. But, whether that 
is right or wrong, every one of the other eight provinces 
was prepared to go so far as to send a civil servant to 
Ottawa; and I do not think that aiyone of them is less 
Jealous of its rights than is the government of this Province, 
But the government of this province declines to go that far. 
I think there is something more than a coincidence in that. 
Thls-'is set out in the correspondence tabled in the House of 
Commons in August, 1944. 

Further, Mr. Speeiker, it is necessary for me to state 

- 436 - 2-27-43 

Mr. Jolllffe. 

that the members of this group hold very strong views about 
the general attitude of the goerenment towards the Dominion, 
towards other provinces and toward new social legislation 
as expressed in the Prime Minister's speech on the radio of 
Augast 9th, 

If the hon. Prime Minister had not madt a more 
recent statement than he has made, the statement he made 
yesterday on that subject, then tb3 members of this group 
w)uld feel obliged to express their condemnation of the 
government on that specific iss-oe , namely, its attitude 
towards the Federal Family AllCHpances Act, vrtiich is now 
on the statute book of the Dominion Government, 

It is, however, our hope, that as a result of the 
more recent development it would be possible, when the 
Dominion-Provincial conference takes place, for an agree- 
ment to be reached between the Dominion and the- provinces 
with respect to not only family allowances but the othsr 
social services, as to which some appropriate allocation of 
responsibility must be made between ths Dominion and the 

That, however, is only one issue, because we have 
heard and v/e have read, not only in connection with family 
allowances, but in connection with other natters, state- 
ments made by members of the Government, either in their own 
individual capacity or a;peaking on behalf of the Government, 
which, in our view, do not represent the opinion of the 
majority of the people of this Province in the attitude they 
expressed toward the nationhood of this country, towards the 
Dominion, and towards other provinces, 

I am sometimes puzzled by the attitude which is 
taken now by the Prime Minister, when I recall that accord- 

- 437 - 2-e7-4^ 

Mr. Jolliffe. 

ing to the Winnipeg Free Press, his position in 1939 was 

thisi According to the Free Press, he said at Fort William 

in January, 1939: "My own stand is that in all natters of 

national importance there should be one strong Government 

legislating for the people of Canada in their common 


I could not agree that any Government should do 

the legislating, not being a great believer in Government 

by Orders-in-Council or anything of that kind. But, if 

the Prime Minister meant that there should be one strong 

Government giving the necessary leadership in this Dominion 

and that the Dominion parliament pass legislation on matters 

of common interest, than I would most certainly agree with 

what he said in January of 19 39. Matters of common interest 

are to-day even more deep-rooted than they v/ere at the 

beginning of this war; and they eire not at all the same 

matters of common interest as in I867 when the British Horth 

American Act conferred certain powers and responsibilities 

upon the Dominion, and others upon the Provinces. He also 

said — the hon. Prime Minister of this Province, who was 

then the Leader of the Opposition — in January, 1931: 

"I advocate the strengthening of national 
ties and divesting the province of every 
conflicting authority not necessary for 
provincial purposes. " 

With that statement also we to-day are bound t> 


He said also — and this, I believe, has never ' 

been better said or more truly said: 

"The welfare of the people of the west, of 
the maritimes , and of the Pacific coast, is 
part and parcel of the welfare of the people 
of this province." 

We believe that to be entirely true, but we believe 

- 4^8 - 2-2 7-4^ 

Ivlr. Jolliffe. 

it to be a deplorable and ominous development in tha life 
of this country, in that the hon. Prime Minister of Canada's 
greatest province diould have in recent months acSopted a 
position which seems to be so very different from hiff position 
in January, 1939 • 

He said also — and I assume that he would say tha 
same thing to-day, although we Cannot agree with hia inter- 
pretation of his pledge — he said, in January, 1939» as 
Leader of the Conservative Party: 

"I pledge myself without reserve to co-operate 
with any federal government in office to give 
ad^equate protection to our people during their 
working years, and after." 

AN HOU. IffiMBER: He has forgotten about that. 

MR, JOLLIFFE: With that statement also we agree, 
but ^ln fortunately we cannot agree with the interpretation of 
that pledge as we have heard it interpreted from the mouths 
of the hon. Prime Minister and his ministers in recent months. 

•Then, too, Mr. Speaker, I have, I think, indicated 
the more important promises of the Government which have not 
been kept, and which must be kept by any future government in 

'^^<ie Wo. ^^5" ^t\\ 


- 445 - 2-27-45 

Mr. Jolliffe 

office if the interests of the people of this province are 

to be preserved. 1 refer in particular to the promiee in 

respect to educatiOii, and the promise in respect to health. 

It is also of particular importance, in a provj- 
ince like oUts, that legislation should have been prepared 
and submitted to this legislature which would assure 
agriculture of an adequate price structure and adequate 
atricatiug machinery in post-war years, when that may again 
bscosM a responsibility of the province and the prov&noe 
•loae; and adequate legislation to protect the farmers* 

I tbink it is also deplorable that the present 
Qk>ver&Bent has not seen fit to recognize their own respon- 
sibility for sponsoring new labour legislation. Now, 
It has been suggested, first by a private member of this 
Bouse and now by the Government, that the whole matter 
tt labour legislat on should be reviewed by a select 

ocNBBlttee. Hay I say that we welcome thot suggestion. 

le regard it as a step forward, and we hope that it will 

JMwe satisfactory and constructive results. Nevertheless, 

tb« primary responsibility is that of the Government, we 

will cooperate in the work of any select committee. If 

Uiat is as far as the Government is pc eared to go, we will 

cooperate and endeavour to offer constructive suggestions, 

and to reach a satisfactory conclusion. 

iSfhen the new government took officein the 
pr-ovince of Saskatchewan that government immediatify 

accepted its responsibility for sponsoring better labour 
legislation. The government did not acthastily, it 
keard representations fromall interested parties and than.. 

81 1 
ill 9& 


- at 
i JoBq 

• \t eoirio 



aoos^lt » «Boo«d 


P.^OB. ©JdV 

t -).{•( 

,;ci wca £>aft •«lic8 
3*2 a sfi it biRHitn W9 

3 91 ylBttWtJ •d* 

axli 8« lAl 8S al ^*^ 

., ,„oY»»5no biid ©Jaic^irrooo 

lO790)«t^B8 a CL0M9% 0$ fru* 

-,- _ ->fl^ aerie 

li/odal ie;rj«<i anliwaoqe to5 Y^iiidiaaoqasi ati 5«*q»*o# 
^i . ili^fiAfOB foe. tlb Jasnnievo^ ©rfT .oolJalelSit 

,3a»Ied*'i9V©IB .aJI -r =^/ 
»r , :t.i9.'nn'tavor 9:ii ' . 

iUv ©w ,0:^ oi bsiB© 15 e 


- 446 - £-27-45 

Mr. Jolliff* 

like men, the hoa. members of the Saskatchewan goverciment 
accepted the responsibility, which they knew would subject 

them to bitter criticism, and they received very much bitter 
criticism, but they accepted the responsibility and pre- 
sented to the special session in October, new labour legis- 
lat on. They terminated their agreement with the Dominion 
government, believing it was more important that labor 

legislation in Saskatchewan she Id be established on a 

sound basis than that they should have a carbon c^vy of the 

Dominion measure, which is unsound. And the result is that 
•uch new legislation is in force in the province of 

Saskatchewan to-day. 

Finally, Mr. Speaker, as I ha ve endeavoured to 
the best of my ability tto make clear in the course of this 
lengthy speech, we are not satisfied, and we are obliged 
to express our dissatisfaction with the progress which ha« 

been made by the Government ia plaxming and organizing the 
raiources of this province for post-war employment, we thin^ 
tbat much bolder steps ought to have been taken. W« think 
that even though the Government to-day finds itself cir- 
cumscribed by the War Measures Act, and all the peculiar 
conditions mt the war period, they should be ready by now 

te present to this Legislature the most comprehensive plan 
for post-war development in Ontario, plans going much furtbe^ 
than public works pr-ojects, or anything of that kind. 
Now, Mr. Speaker, it may be that we have 
expected too much of the present Government. Far be it from 
me to say that all they have done i-s evil, and they iii ve done 
no good. That, I think, would be an unreasonable and a nega- 
tive approack. It is necessary for us, however, to eaprese 
our disappointment that the Government's policy — looked upon 
as a whole — does not represent what the people of thia / 

I9i i etii baa , i m»il:J 

■ u ■ ,-'^ : •'. .; : aoi«a»a i 

lodBi . -. ,. fliiom fi?w -t .^ ■5,nJv*M«rt .i'nsmfl'TSVc:;. 

'B«ta« •vol •^»«q8 .iM ,<cIXj^ 

, - jiiift iBw-tflioq tot »Oii .o»«*i 

sq tiii £L» batt ,;tOA s»-xi;8«*ti i«W 9X1^ \d b»dtzotimjo 




- 447 - 2-27-^5 

Mr. Jolliff* 

provinc* exi)ect«d, and does not represent what wa^ 
pledged by the hon. members of the Geveriiment themselves. 

We have the right, as aa Oppesltion, under aur tradltoiial sy stem 

of government, to express our dissatisfaction, and to record 

our dissent in this House, and that we propese to dOo 

New, at the last session it was necessary on 
more than one occasion for the Gevernment to enlist the 

understanding support and sympathy of other groups inthis 
Heuse in order to carry legislation sponsored by the 
CrOTernmeiit . 1 dc net think the Government have any grounds 

for complaint with respect to the support and cooperation 
they received with respect to all progressive measures 
brought before the House at the last session. I do not 
think they will kave aay grounds for complaint, after 
this session, because while the Opposition groups inthis 
House — or the group for which I speak — claim the right to 

attack the Government for what they have done, or what they 
have aot done, the Government, on its part, can only expect 
that they will receive support ou measures wh ch are, in 
part at least, acceptable to the majority of the hon. 

members ©f this House. 

NOW, it may be that because of criticism 
which bas been expressed, because of attacks which hake 

boon made against the Gevernment, and which could be made 
legitimately in any democracy, and which wo have every right 
to make — it may be that hon. members of the Govearnment 
felt the sense of annoyance which comes upon any 
of those who, after some time in office, begin to hav4i* 
foeliag of indispensability creep upon them. 

But, Mr. Speaker, after all, notwithstanii*g 
what may be said in this Heuse ia the future or what has 
boon said in the pa t. we are able to do busimess in a 
fairly regular and orderly way. There may be times when 

"t' " ~ 5 ij_i SJ OUUiV-.'iii 

.••vxafciiE*. .^d b»3en»Iq 

•il^ 7aiXA« iiavttC 9d3 191 aoiissoe aao aad^ WT.Qm 

•It oaiMa«qe fl»i)j«lBX3fI yii*o ^^ leino at aauaH 

aoiJaia^cciu J:)ua Jieqouc » tiilv Jalsiqaico lal 

aa^uaaein •vlaaaiaoiq I aqaai ri;riw baviauai ^ad* 

'•*'** ' ^'-^ '■ ia \l«a avAj XI iw ^^^di iLalslt 

•Uial a.,^uT.i, .ioiiiea dw aauaoad ,fla.aaaa aid* 

1S«1 J .aaob av#d v^d* ^axiv iaiinavaC' ad;r iiaa^ja 

***^** '^1*1 •^' -«nrac ^d? .?»n3h toa arad 

*vtwjri j-ix'a' {adi' i»di 
• acfl ad^ Ic alda^qaooa ,*ai-al )b timq 

• aaueH aidJ to aTSffrnani 

*■* e>Ioi»j?a to aausoBrf ^"^i^-ii't v« ,: 

•..u, .. ^xx/co uon;«r feu. .^ai.aa afiaia aaad 

^faafliMavoc r. «imsr/ 

— a^am ol 

'^'** aaaaa ad^ Jial 

*'*^*^^ ' •fliaa lana ,cdw a«ad^ !• 

IMaaaaqaxfifli t« aailaal 

^"- <^- ■ «qci .oM .^wa 


••d tadv ^. •,x;^wt •«* ax aauaH e i ^aa ad x-m ^adw 

^adw aamlJ ad y*« aiarfT , yaw yl^a^ia 6a. i-^.,,^^ ^^^.xal 

- 448 - 2-27-45 

Mr. Julliff* 

the h«n. Prime Minister thinks he i s badly used 

because he is severely criticized, but he is very well 
treated iadeed, in comparison with the hon . Prime Minister 
ef oae of the African ceuntries. l can assure him 
we have net hiag lilce that in mind. 

I, tkerefere, suggest siace there is ae 
pessibility ef any Sgyptiaa crisis arising eut of this 
4evflepment, that the Gevernment refraia fremadeptiag ' 
the attitude that their pregram ef legislatiea is te 

be accepted by the Reuse as an ultimatum. I weuld 
suggest that they f ollew the same ceurse which has 

already beea taken in ccaacctien with a number ef 
bills, that is, ts fallew the ordinary course sf cea- 

sultatien, discussion aad debate, which has character- 
ized the British system ef psrliament for so many 

ceatur ies . 

We are prepared to consider legislation 
OA Its merits, whether it comes from the GrOvernment 
or from a private member. The primary responsibility 
Mowsver, is that of the Governmoat. 1 said that last 
year. I say it again to-day. 

I said a yaar ago that the ooverameat 
should have the fullest opportuaity to implomeat 
their program. They have had it. They have had 
•ightoea months ia which to honour their pledges 
and at the last session they were able to coramaad 
a majority at all times, I gave warning then that 
while we of the C.C.F. Opposition would support forward 
steps and progressive legislation, we would resolutely 
oppose any reactioaary step on the part of the Govern- 
oioat and any failure to discharge their responsibilities. 


b0< .I9d •fif-t 

!' , few ^'. >. V ' ; u©V9a a 1 •!! sauisatd 

mtd •' a»Li:rau' A •£!;) to viio !• 

f-. ; ,*3il:t »•?? t f Tiis!T! j»Q •v«ri Mr 

blxj^w I .muSmmli lu k« «« •au«H •^l \d b9i<^iiy>» »<i 

. ••! tut ft to 
t b»iAq» Tti •!« af 
'•«•! la^tadv ,atiiaffi •) I aa 

.ladaaei atayinci a svtil la 

.^Maccaii^Tar; »rlJ 'tc l«ri,t e_^ .isvaarfi 

laaBin-f^raO aM? ay s ax- 

«t V '.i bluada 

6j>M »v *j< varfT iiajlJ' 

***' 5-w^Maia 

--■*■■•■■■"*» 6i i- .^w X**-' *ai:«aa# j*. '• bMM 

i^ii aa; ». *"«3 ; :* ^« ytliatam a 

<-■ i £?iBaa'iaaiq faaa 8qa:fe 

'^■^" % Y'l^a^ivfoaaT yaa aaaqqa 

- 449 - 2-27-45 


W« did so. 

' After *11 th« Itssoas ®f recent years, 
a great many peeple expected tkat the Administratio* 
weuld avoid a swing back t© reactieaary eld-time 
Teryiam, aad tkat the Admiaistratieii would face up 
to tkelr tremendous respeasibilitiea la tke pest-war 
peried. Yet tke Prime Mialster deliberately seuadeA 
tke call back te Teryiam ia kis deplerable radie speeek 
ef August 9tk agaiast family allewaaces aad agaiaat 
aatieaal uaity. 

Aj^i aew at the eutset ef this sessiea, 
witk tke ead ef the war swiftly drawing aear, we fa* 
aetkiag ia tke Geverameat'a legislative pregram te 
suggest that they are serieusly prepared to deal witk tke 

preblems a peat-war crisis will briag upon Oatarie., 

we have a© cenfidejace ia such a geverameat. 
we take ©ur stand agaiast the policy ef uaprepardaeea 
far peace represented by the jpt'eseat Admiaistratieas 
at Ottawa and at ^ueea'a Park, aad here ia this HMise 
we take our staad agaiast tke ferces ef react iea repres- 
ented by tke Cease rvattYe party. 

I tkerefere m©ve, secuaded by Mr. Leckkart: 

"Tkat tke Motion aew befere tke 
Hause be ameaded by addiag therete 
the fellewiag *erds: 

" 'But this Heuse regreta: 

(1) tkat tke attitude ef tke aeveramea* 
of oatarie tewarts tke Demiai©a aad 
etker previaces has aet assisted i* 
creatiag c aditieas ef aatieaal 
uaity 5 

(2) that after mere than 18 moatks ia 
effice tke Geverumeat have failed >a^ 
implemcat their promises with res** 
pect t© educatiea, healtk services aad 
etker impertaa* matters; 

(3) that the Geverumeat i» ye f*il«* ^ 
ferecaat legislatioa tkat would t- 

* " ' »gjt 6a« a«u ««>>'».' (-'' 

■^•0 •>. 

'•bi9t •Hat 

*«ftffiaT:»T«0 •■J 

*©ii«i ••/ /<^ J •©jxi... jssv»r. ft 

- 450 - 2-27-45 


a»»ur« «d«qu%t« prlcts f»r farm pr»4- 
ucta aad saourity of farm taaura 
ia tka pest-war yaars: 

(4) tkat tke Gfyornmerit have failed f 
racagalze tke irnmadiate aea^ far 
lagialatiaa that would pravida ugiea 
aacurity aai atker callactiva bar- 
gaiiiia^ rlgkta far labvur ia tk« 

pa St -war yaara: 

(5) tkat tka OaTeramaat kava failad ta 
accept tkelr ewa respeasibility 
fer plaaaias aad ergaalzlag tka 
raseurcea ef oatarle te guarantee pre- 
ductive emp3ieyaieat ia tke pest-war 
yeara fer mea aad wemaa aew la 
\iaiferm aad fer tkeae aew ea gaged ia 
war iaduatriea. ** 

^. SPEAKER: May I aak tke keA. Leader ef tka 

Oppeattiea (Mr. Jelliffe) if ke will ceaaeat te keldiag 
tlia ever uatil te-merrew fer ceasidaratiaa? 

MR. JOLLIFPB: Gk, yea. 

HON. GEORGE A. DREW (Prima Miaiatar): Mr. 

Speaker, start lag at this time ia tke afteraeek, it 
ia aet my intantiea te take tke wkele time, because 

af certaia arraagemeata whick kava beea made wbich 
Effect some ef tke kea» membera, aiad which will pvr- 

kapa skartea my time semewkat, befere I meve tke 

But 1 da wiak te say at tke eutset tktt 

we kava takea tke pesitieayery clearly ea erery 
eceaa ea wkea tke matter kas beea uader diacuaaiea, 
tkat this Oererameat welcemea auggestieaa, welcemea 
eeeperatiaa, aad tkat it is gereraiag ea tke rery 
beat demecratic basis passible, and that is by tke 
rete ef tke kea. membera ef tkia Legislature. 

We hae heard a geed deal abeut this beiag 
a naiaerlty geTernmeat«, I must say ia oaurteeua terme 
by tke kea. Leader ef the Oppfsitiea (Mr. jelliffe), 
aad muck less courteeus terms frem elsewhere. Hewerer, 

■^••Y a*w-Ja •q 

«t i«Iift avaM inMiaittTfC sit} imii (3) 
XtilidlaBtqafti ««• lifAl lg*oo« 

••iq ••^««ijiii& f^ tiistaa !• t»oiu»a«i 

t4fr-':r3«q M7 «i iu»mx*iq/a% avljouk 

«i wax aanaw ixa aaA lal ataav 

aZ ftasasA* *•« aaaii^ lal iaa irxaliav 

".aaiitei^ial taw 

•Mt la la&aaj .aa^ aM? sits I x»H i"^ 

salllaM al ^aaaa^ . mA 11 (allillal .iM) aaidtHaqqO 

?«6 .i»i»L. : ^A»-j i«i *ai'xaB«-a:r liiai; lava ulMi 

• auaaaj ,aii2i? alaalw aM;t »2ial 9J aajt^aafnl y« ^aa al 

~^*' =a«d «4J A* d.Uv;>. Joall0 

-aajfe aqait 

tidva «« «j^^ aaslal avaM a» 

.attiaai.' , ,^|[„ ,, aaeoa 

aaioaalav ,aaaltea3sx/a msx. ..- airiJ ja4J 


iltmi99m9k #aecr 
oa'xx/j«IiiiS»j tlMj -J, ai»d«i«fli . a«ij ^^^ «i« |>j,y 

aanaj eutts-iuMo aX yaa _ .^ jsatnuisvaa y;riiaaiai« a 

,(allillai; .iMj fl#l;?lBaqgC .*fld la 7o£,i,oj .a.,< ^gi ^^ 

.Tavawaii .oiaiwaala mai*^ aanej f^rt^^izu^o aa a£ Mowit 6aA 

-451- 2-27-45- 

Mr. Drew. 

perhaps that is to be expected^ But the situation 
is very simple. There is only one reason -- to 
paraphrase a quotation, vuhich I may re-quote, by 
the hon. Leader of the Opposition, that "You are 

there and we are here" -- the only reason for that 
is this, that this •'-egislature dealt with eighty- 
eight bills last session, and each one of thes$ 
bills was passed by a substantial majority. They 
were bills that were supported, and that is the 
only reason this Government is here; it is a 
majority government and it will fiot continue in 

office a day past the time when it is not a majority 
government. Jhat, after all, is surely the fairest 

possible test of all. 

As for any suggestion that we are deal- 
ing Arrogantly with the affairs of this House, as 
has been suggested by the irritable and hon. member for 
21g;in (Mr. Hepburn) — as for any such suggestibn as that, 
no government ever governed more fully with the acquiescense 
of not only the Opposition, but of each of the groups which 
were re|) resented. 

I throw out no challenge; I merely state the fact, 

that we have accepted the responsibility of government in a 

democratic legislature, under a constitutional system vfaich 

calls for majority support. I'hat is the basis upon which 

we shall continue. 

Had we not been In the mindst of as grave a crisis 
and as terrible a war, or more terrible than ever faced man 

.weiQ .iM 


actiBU&fa '^rfrf iisU .b^iiosqxe sd oi ai *eri* eqflrfieq 

yd .sJOi/p-e-^. ■'10m 1 riol" b eeBirf^flrtflq 

difl uoY" ?aoqqO 9xlJ lo labBdJ .aorl 9dt 

Siidii io1 noBssT ylno erf^ -- -^w 9w ftna (neAi 

-\ >t£B9b ©lu^relt ■ 'adS ,Bldi bI 

^»rfT .n?liot«m lBl*0B*acf08 « itrf beeeaq bbw aXIld 

tdi al JfltiJ bnfl , Jbetioqqus ©isw J-eri;t aillef snew 

B 8l ;ti jBiBd al ;tflBfl«n8V0v> aJtrid- noBaan %ltio 

al euatiao: 

itj leJiB .cfratamioiros 


. Ub lo ^e 

B a£ &no--. 

1 ». 

BiiBl'^e ^riJ ri*iw \X;fiiaforri* sol 

. ^. 6»^eey?ijje aeed eari 

'-•vaji Tfivs ^fjTsrrnTsvog oil 

;ion Jo 
.b9Sae9en<9ei eisw 

"! ; few 

£tolditr jaoqo alSBcf &dS ai J'ari^ 

.raiBlSBl ol^TBTOOfflBb 

tnotBffl lol bXIbo 

bIbIio e ©VBTS 86 "to izbnlm »rivl ow baH 

i'i3 ' : >ofct lave riBril sldiiie-t eiom no ,ibw b aldlnie* as bas 

- 452 - 8-27-45 

Ur. Drev 

before, I assure you we would not have continued in the situa- 
tion which existed, but would gladly have accepted the 
opportunity of further testing the opinion of the people of 

this province, 

I share the view expressed by other hon. members 
of this legislature; I share the view expressed publicly 
by the hon. Leader of the Opposition that it would be un- 
fortunate if an election were precipitated while we are 

in the most serious period in the closing days of the struggle 
that each one of us earnestly hopes is drawing very close to 
a conclusion. 

I know very well that amongst every one of the groups 

represented in this Legislature there is concern over their 
loved ones; there is concern over their sons, and their 
brothers, and those who are very close to them, and that con- 
cern will continue until this war is won. And thefeelings 
in regard to what their own flesh and blood are enduring 
is the same in each case. There is one thing about ^iiich 
every one in this Legislature, I know, can be in complete and 
unqualified agreement, and that is that in suaring those 
thoughts each one of us hopes and prays that victory may soon 
be ours, not only so that the wir itself may have come to an 

end, but that those lads, and those girls, may be back with 
us ^ere again. 

We do welcome the assurance of cooperation irtiere 
that cooperation can be extenil^do I do want to say, however, 
that if this Legislature is unprepared to support legislation 


ttfii :■ 

to aIqo.<»q en 

7fiff cton bi'jc-fi idw 

Bisdfflefli .norl -? ftoeaenqxe welv 

\loliduq beaaeiqre w©^ « c-.w ^ 
-xiu td fcluow J^l fBd3 aoqciO erl 

eiB aw ©Xirfw b9)Bitqt:09iq_ e 

3e I ■ , 9'xo1ed 

• \!' firi o •■ 

ifif.; I 




:i 'ti^resflifie bu to eao d.o«e JBxi: 

f)^aB act 

13VS jogao 

'rao ,v 

i bflfl ,81* 

:\i &t 'i 


0B9 e^xf^^uoxi^ 

Ti " r r r^ o- f 1 

at 3^ 


o aonaTUBBB e aif 

• 06 I .Bfllnevtxs arf nao rroMeieqoco J'ArfcJ 

- 453 - 2-27-45 

Mr. iJrew 

of a major character vhlch Is presented, then this Govern- 
ment naturally cannot continue to assume the responsibility 
for government. That, I think, is simply an acceptance 
of the basic principle of the form of parliamentary gsvem- 
ment that we have. 

Now, the -leader of the Opposition has read from 
some statements that I made in a speech in Winnipeg in 1939 
in regard to national unity, and without positively saying 
that I have reversed that position, left an implication -- 

in fact more than an implication — that in a later speech 

I had reversed that position or had departed from my earlier 
stand. Let me read exactly vAiat I did say in a speech 
which — quite contrary to the expressions of the irritable 

and hon. memeber for Elgin (Mr, Hepburn) — to which he has 
referred on different occasions -- I am quite prepared to 

accept respo'nsibility for what I said on that occasion, When 
it comes to the quetion of national unity let me read what 

I did say: 

"We have no thought of adopting any 
dog-ln-the-manger attitude as far as Ontario 
is concerned o We recognize that we heare 
great advantages. It is likely those ad- 
vantages will Increase as time goes on, 

"It is my firm conviction that no other 
part of the whole world offers greater 
opportunity for expanding production afld 
increasing prosperity than does Ontario, 
if we make full use of our possibilities and 
march forward into the future with courage 
and faith in ourselvi^s. But in recognizing 
the blessings which "^od has given us. I know 
I speak the mind of the people of Ontario 
when I say to those in other parts of Canada 
that we are Canadians first, last and all the 
time. Our strength is their strength. We are 
part of a great team. If at any time we are 
more fortunate than some other members of that 

■^n■^ .-vr:'. -.) ' h''^^ 'fi^s^- ■"■' 

>X» 10 

xioasqe e . ^ dbx© £»Bf. -bxaJre 

>ta9i. 69iT9T:ari 

.- T n ^>*^- t- 

00 oa 



■J dili 

- 454 - 2-27-45 

Mr. i>rew 

team, we will be glad to help them to the very 
limit of our strength whenever they need our 
help. We have no thought that the financial 

EesQurces of this province should not stand. ^ 
ehind every legitimate measure for the assist-!* 

ance of any part of Canada which is in need of 
help» We want to take our full share in building 

a powerful and prosperous nation." 

Now, I did go on to say — and I stand by that position 
as far as 1 personally am concerned — that in building that 

united nation for the future there is only one basis that can 
maintain that unity in the future, if national unity is to be 

a reality and not a pretense, and that is with equality of 
opportunity there shall be real equality of obligation to 
maintain the state from the Atlantic to the i-acifiOo 

In the remarks that have already been made in this 
LegHlature certain figures that I gave in that speech have 
been questioned. I stand by those figureso Those figures 
are not the unreliable figures of ^r. Claxtono Those 

figures are the statistician's figures. In fact, the 
figures do not go as far in the wro^g direction as was in- 
dicated then when a full compilation of the facts is possible. 
These figures that are being given out by Mr, Claxton in Ottawa 
have never at any time been supported by any statement from 
the Bank of (Canada nor by any statement from the i^omlnion 
Bureau of Statistics, nor can they be. 

On another occasion during the course of this 
legislative sitting I will have an opportunity of dealing at 
some length with the expressions about the civil service 
but 1 do want to say this in passing — this province and the 
members of this i-egislature have «very reason to be proud of 
the civil service we have in this province and to an extent 

•3 - -^^^ - 


bnecfe ;toa ^li/orie eonl lo aeoji/oes*! 

•;^aie8« arf^ 101 eiuaaeffl »iii»iaiJisaI x^^v® liiilrfea 

:[ has yfioq b 

flol^laoq ^sfl bflfii'B I bne --• yj38 ocJ i> 1 ,wol5 

nap ^BfiJ eiaaa ©ao liifi-- ;i ' '.-■;: ran D-- 

ed o.t 8i ucTlau If ' , tj-;/"; s •:] .U /.Jlr 'aleffi 

'" "'Ifiop© ditvf B.f ^firi^ bflB ,8e"-"~ , ~ '■-.-- — ^ 

03 nolie.'^iLdi. ;)9 Ibst tlnu^- . 

©eorfl .no^xBl .Tu:%ll eXcfalldTiiu erfj *on ©*ib 

©rfj ,Joa' li/Sil a' ^tB-ta ericf stb eeawg^ll 

-ftl £3w Eft -^w od* TJ in'> ?,fi c-a ^on oft asTasft 

.eldiae: ^Bt e ' a aaiiw aexi^ Aa-taoib 

aw? .tBilt s-' "- '1 98eriT 

jue a99C( aiail;f \a.& -Jb isven evarf 

if a s^i: aictj-te ©vhtalais©! 

ari^ ftofi 90c $fil8r I maw ob ^ 

(fa©^xa ca -i© aofllvonq a ©vsri aw •ojhrcda IItIo ©d;t 

- 455 - 2-27-45 

Mr. i-'rew 

that is not generally publicly recognized, ^e can claim 
in this province civil servants of as high a standing in their 
technical qualifications and in their devotion to duty as in 
any other legislative body that 1 know of. One of the very 
excellent men we have amongst that civil service is our own 
Statistician, vbose standing has been recognized by the fact 
that he was appointed as ^hainnan of the Joint Dominion- 
Provincial Committee of -statisticians. I am quite prepared 
to set his figures up against the unsupported figures vtiich 
have been given in this particular case. 

But this is not a matter ^rtiich can be reduced to 
mere dollars and cents. It goes much further than that and 
much deeper. I expressed views which were based upon things 
which had happened and statements that had been made in a 
particular province in this country. Now, Mr. Speaker, i 

believe very strongly in. tolerance but I find it difficult 
to understand the type of mind that never raises any question 
about the intolerance of those who damn everything that is 
connected with our British connections and I for one do intend 
to reserve the right to stand by those things that I hold dear 
as against criticism finom elsewhere, and it seems a surprising 
thing that the Intolerance only begins at the point that ws 

take issue with statements that would go to the very root 

of the continued existence of this country under the constitutional 

position it now holds. 

As for having made cooperation Impossible — well, 
I say that under this *^overnment which has been so condemned 
because of this supposed attack -- 

AN HON. MEMBER: Dominion government? 

flileis) HBO B« .69sln?^o r y.XI«T«ros ion nl iBil& 

Xiov ©a; .to woii>i j. jjsuj xcoa . •ii^ex lad^o \aB 

■tofil sri^iccf b9sia^oo9n n^ed sari sfliJbriB^B ©aoiinr ^a&i.otiBliBJZ 
-noInlaioCl J'cioX 9sii .<'.nl»d^ 8& ba&atoqiB eaw atf teriJ 

riolfW se^ni^lt Jbe^tToqqoem; 9di taalB^B qu aaiL-iil aid Joe o.J 

.eeeo lalifoliiflq 8iri>l at navls Hsdd everf 

o;t booubat ©d nuBt) rfoliW •i9;J^6(n b * -. c - 

5ns iBAi nflitt larfctio^ rfotrm ado;? il .ataeo bm analXofe ©tein 

8;m[1c' f baafid aiow doldw awaxv baeaa'iqxa I .ib^bq:) dotsm 

B al Bbftm nasff bsi n-fttfimB&B&B boB b«»n«»qqed borf dolrfw 

}Ii. ■■ .ti bn tl 1 YTsv availed 

""sil-t Jbxr'- ' - sqiit 9dt bnaiaiBbau ot 

sorTBtaXo^cl eri^ SvodB 

■ -^ - ^;.. ^+ fvv Jbo^oexinoo 

©▼leaeT; o* 
ji' -^- ..... -„-. ., - ...-:»' fi" f^ ea 

J-001 bli/cfw tBrtt ed"naffle^A^a riiflw eueal ©jia^ 

'^■:'^sSelxB bBualiaoo Btit 1o 

.afcXorf won cfl nol^leoq 

, r fftw . ,. _^ '"p-iaqooo 9bam sf^-f^sd lol aA. 

be doiffw itflaraiievoi'^ aixt* lefini; SBtii yas I 

TJ-flentot&vos coir .tlOH WA 

r ^ rt ,-, f + , . » ; + 

- 456 - 2-27-45 

Mr. Drew 

MR. DREW: No, this Government. Oh, I will have 
something to say about them. iJcn't be impatient. As fo-r 
the suggestion that this 'Government has made cooperation im? 
possible, let me point out that this Government has been able 
to cooperate more effectively with the Government of Quebec 
than has any preceding government in Ontario for many years. 

Not very long ago very satisfactory agreements 
were reached in regard to the coordination of the information 
n reference to minor matters as between the different pro- 
vinces and it was a tribute to the attitude of the Government 
of the province of CJ,uebec that they were the ones who supported, 
along with the other provinces, the idea that our own Minister 
of Mines, in spite of what may be said of his lack of mining 
experience, they have asked that our Minister of Mines be the 
coordinating official for the whole of Canada, and he has 
undertaken that task in full and hearty cooperation with the 
Minister of Mines from Q.uebec and from every other province 
that has a Minister of Mines. More recently the same 
Minister — not in his capacity as Minister of Mines, and 
perhaps it is a tribute to his geniality and his ability to 
get on with the people, that the same Minister has on behalf 
of this Government effected an agreement with the province 
of Q,uebec in regard to certain tax measures which is of very 

great importance to both provinces and to the people outside 
these provinces. So successful in fact that we now have 
an agreement with another province, the province of Nova i^cotia. 
And in the Order in Council passeii — and I am not referring 
to the Qrder in Council by this Government, but by the 'Jrder 


- .i~^i - 



fsa.1 n: 
eXde iiQ&d '■■ 

.BIS 97 vhr; 

Bri ;Jnofflm:evo'- 

lua dri^t 

f Jee 

69rfOBeT ST', 


^nn f , 




nemmevo*^ bIj 

.bI^ojHs bvoM to ©oc 

C^- : J. ^dl5r * ■^'' fflB 

:• rft [w iaem»»i^B ne 

Tefe'i'- erf^ '^cf iUKi .^flemmevr 

- 457 - 2-27-45 

Mr. Drew 

in Council adopted by the Government of the province of 
Quebec in «ranuary l3th this year, ♦'whereas the representatives 
of the province of (Quebec and the province of Ontario have 
agreed to the following -- and sets out the agreement in 
regard to the tax measures -- and then it says, "Whereas this 
draft agreement is just and reasonable to the two provinces 
as well as advantageous for them as well as for the country, 
and constitutes a reaffirmation of fhe rights of the province 
in its field of taxation and whereas this agreement may be of 
considerable help in the solving of post-war problems*'-- that 
was not prevented by anything that this Government has done. 

This Government had the utmost cooperation between it and the 
Government of the province of Quebec in regard to health 
measures and the Ministers of the two provinces and of other 
provinces have very clear understandings in that respect as 
well. But perhaps we will hear the suggestion that this 
represents the Drew-Duplessis tie. 

I remember seeing these Communist advertisements 
appearing periodically, lying advertisements every one of 


MR. A. A. MacLEOD (Belwoods): I object to that. 
MR. DREW: Oh, are you responsible for them? Well, 

if the hon. member assumes responsibility I must, of course, 
under the rules of debate, withdraw, but only if he does. 
Do you assume responsibility? 

MR. MacLEOD: I accept responsibility for the 
advertisements that the -t^remler refers to, that were published 

B9yl4B&n9B9iqm. erf.i sflolsrfw* ,ifl9^ e 

a . © L(Sb 

sonivotq »ri-J " 

lo erf Xtm *fl«fli«»i3» 8ixl:t bssm 

'fr, snrtfvoTCf 9 fit I'D 
flr, o -ffTrtirfvn Rp, Xfev; en 

»tl 9Xdfl19t 

dflUwevoO eirfT 

M 8ri.t fine Bsiweesm 
Bfi loeqe- *>id&ni. • ^iisv ©varf a©oxrlV(nq 

V '~ = *-<3f©1 


Ic ©no yisv© Btaeai©? 



.':< , ii-iR , -d .HM 

tanoqeei eeaiueeB isrfridjn .nod 9di 11 

.„. .wsitdiiw ,9Jed9b lo &eLin ©ri* iBfeiiu 

i\.;riXlrfi ail oq«ei ©flumsB uc? c'l 

ed^ ..^-- '7-' *- ^^rf|eaoqa^1 jqao'^*' T :Q02J3bM .HM 

J ©lew jflii? ,ocf 8a©l9i lelinea-i ©rij JeiiJ eJnsflisaJtJisvKB 

- 458 - 2-27-45 

Mr. iirew 

under the name of the Labour- Progressive party. 

UR. DREW: I described them as Communist advertise- 
ments and if the hon. member assumes responsibility for 
Communist advertisements then on that basis naturally, under 

the rules of the Legislature, I must withdraw and reserve -- 

MR. MacLEOD: I am asking if the -t^remier will tell 
the House -- 

MR. SPEAKER: The point of order is not debatable » 

MR. MacLEOD: If the -t^remier will be a little more 
specific as to v^at he is talking about -- 

MR. DREV/: I refer to lying Communist advertisements 
and the objection was raised by the hon member. If the hon. 
member identifies the Labour-Progressive advertisements as 
the lying Communist advertisements and assumes responsibility 
then I must withdraw. 

MR. MacLEOD: Any ads, that appeared in the press 
under the name of the Labour- Pr-ogres si ve party I and my 
collaague accept full responsibility for. 

MR. DREW: He must go further than that. He must 
say they are Communist adSo 


MR. SPEAKER: In the hon. Premier's remark I did 

not hear him mention the "Progressive -Labour party but he 

referred to Communists, 

MR. DREV/: NoV» ^r. Speaker, since there is no point 

raised then I shall proceed. It is a matter of some interest 

that those advertisements that I referred to employed very 

•I9f)cu ,\LLatu&Ba aiefid ctsr.^ no aarlJ 8Jfi©i:i9aI3"'i»v5B ietauauaoO 

-- seiroH arf.t 
»9ld»iB(ieb ioa ei lebio lo inloq, »rl'. 
9Toni 9l^.tlX 6 ©d IXlw islmai^ --^' "I 

,-- :?! ollloeqe 

a^raeioeal^'xavxiA jBlnuinmo"^ Sfll^-t c- x- .uj-. i iVi-onk. 

.nod art :9ffl noii »rf^ yd baelat a»w aol^oat^o »ftt bna 

Bii BSa9ai9»itrQvb& aTiBsartsoTi-aiiooBa. aaa asill^tnoDx leamoni 

lStL16lBaoqBBi fe a bne B^tflameelchcBVbB &bI -^ sfli^X orl^ 

oWBiDdJ'Iw iButa I naxW 
aeeiq adJ ai boaae , . .aba y«A. taoaJoBM .SM 

^ bna I x-^^teq evlae: -• ad* lo aaiAfl Bd^S lebau 

• lot -^cff rMfertarrp. ■^- : :A itcrsoOB asjSBall oo 
cfauin eH H z^'SKa .EM 

.abfl iJelni/fltmoO aiB -Y*d.^ Ibb 
■m .MOH aM08 
bib I MiBine^ ..f^«f-«^ " r , ^ . -(.t ai :Ha:XA^^- 
»d j^ud >tiJ"ifi<? luodad-evleaaiaot^ arf* nol^flsai mlrl rraari ion 

.alsx-ivi. - o:f batislai 

cfflloq * ©ledct aonia .leatBaqc- ,iM ,nr- I .AM 

i&Bieial ©iooa lo isJ-^Bm b ai *I .bat - nsdJ- bsalBi 

ipcav fcsYoXqfflo o^ b^nelei I iadi B&aomoeltioYhB aeod:} &sci:t 

- 459 - 2-27-45 

Mr . iTew 

liberally the same expression of reactionary Toryism 
that has been adopted by the l-eader of the new alliance 
across the floor, and when we are speaking about the 
possibility of cooperation in this Legislature I do intend 
to refer to certain statements which have been mad* in this 

Legislature since the debate began or since this session 

started. Many of the-hon. members here have only been 

in the Legislature for the first time during the sitting 

of the present parliament or legislature and consequently they 

will not realize the extent to which the level of debate 

in this Legislature has changed and i for one do not intend to 

let go any challenge or attempt hy the hon. member for JSlgin 

to reduce the level of debate to the point where it was while 

he was Premier of this province. Now, I know that he was 
not well before the session began and I waited in the hope 
that his temperamental qualities would subside and that the 
rampage he was on shortly before this session opened would 
b^ave expended some of its quality before he arrived here. 
Perhaps, if he had not been sick and unable to go to North 
Gr*y, he might have been as quiet as some of the other hon. 

members that arrived here after that. 

MR. WILLIAM DENNISON (St. David): Where w«fre you? 

MR. DREW: I was looking after the business of the 
Province of Ontario, 

MR. MITCHELL F. HEPBURN (Elgin): I want to correct 
the hon. Prime Minister for saying such a thing". Never, at any 
time, had I any intention of going to North Grey. 


aiaiijioT vrsr'ol.totTST "5 -ssigxQ ©rasa erf* xilaiedtl 

'.r,-irf,.. -;'rff>(ft9qe 8TP «w nsdw fine .tC'cI*! »ri* RsaiojB 
fwaiJcl ob 1 ••iJj;rBl8i;a»*i 814^ at noiJ«aeqooc oq 

aola8»8 aid* aon^e To naasJ eJ-Bcfafi ajrtr aci ^ t«iBiaeJ 

.J ^ J t 1 - 

■JCi ,''1 ! 

aesa \xao ©vbii oiea S'is'- 

o^ fcfla' 


©qod a*lj 

,1 -■» Tf . rr o ■ 


?«dJ aoi-'b- 

-»t1 aa-^ '^i 


-i'^■v v;: egaqiiiBi. 
bafiflaqxa ©vsii 
&£rf ?■" ■* ' ,aqBrii-.'1 

'■lie J£...J aiadrcani 

- 460- 2-27-45 

Mr . Drew 

MR. DREW: 'I'hem, there was an incorrect newspaper 

MR. HEPBURN: A great many newspaper reports are just 
as erratic as you are now. 

MR. DREW: The hon. member for Mgin was quoted in a 
Press Report in a rival newspaper of mine, The Toronto Daily 
Star, v^iiich indicated that the only reason he was not going 
up to support General McNaughton was because he was not well. 
That may be entirely wrong. 

MR. HEPBURN: I addressed five meetings during the 
last week of that campaign in various places, so I must have 
been very well. 

MR. DREW: Then, it was just to duck from under some- 
thing you did not want to face. 

MR. HEPBURN: I got an invitation t go there, and I 
think that is more than you got. 

ME. DREW: The hon. member for KLgin (Mr. Hepburn) is 
Just the same as ever. That, Mr. ^apeaker, is typical of the 
personalities to lA^iich the member devotes himself and I am 
not going to let him drag this -legislature down to the level he 
maintained while •t'remier here, 

MR. HEPBURN^ The trouble with you is you cannot take 
It. You will get all that is coming to you. 

MR. DREW: Now, ^r. i^peaker, I am going to enjoy this, 
because it is Just about time we have, as I said at the out- 
set, to stop that sort of remark. 

MR. HEPBURN: Who started it? I was not saying a word. 

MR. DREW: We have seen notes going back and forth, 

vroiQ . iM 

;t8iit •T« B^fioq*! leqeqawsn xa&ta ctasig A :HH' .HM 

.won -iji: y-'V 5.: cxjcii© sfi 

B ni b9J-oup 6BW nlsl<«i' tot isdMom .nod sdi HQ .HM 

vIlBu o^tnoioT ariT ,onIni lo laqflqawen La-vtn b nl iioqeii eaei^ 

gaJtog ion bbw »rf noean "^Ino •ri;t iadi bsiBoibal doldfr ,ibJ^8 

.II»w ^on BBw dxl •BUBoed 8BW ao:i AsuoVloiA iBieas^ ctioqqoa oJ qy 

• afloiw •^cIsnlctflB ad "^tBrn ;t«ifr 
ouj sjaiii/c a3flid-9»a5 •vll bBeaeniifcB I tMflUHiaH .AM 
avad ^Bjjm I oa ,aaoBXq Buotiny al aslaqmao &Bd) lo ^{aavr ^aal 

. Haw Y19V naed 
-anioa i9bau moil jtoufc o;t &buI aaw :WaHG .AM 

.9ob'> '- ^'s 0OY gnlrf* 


,818. AottBityn': ob io^ I :4 

al [aiudqBE .iM) algJU loT Tacfm^ra .norf arfl :W2Ha .AM 

ait)- .to laoiqY' ' *' ■'.-•'■'; « ae amBe e-'-*- * ••^ 

n:B 1 boB 3iova£i ladmarc arit rfolrtw o^ ealJ-lIanoeteq 

•d leval odi o:? -IsIq*'* afrfct ^eifb m'- '?o^ ,-*on 

.aiaxi lalma'i^ aildw fcaxilaJfllflm 
a^IfiJ^ ^onflBO uo\ al uox xWlw aldxxono sd'l .HM 

.aixtr xoLae 0^ sniog au» I ,i93{6aq<i .1^ ,woJ! :W3Aa .HM 

-vtuo ari^ iB bias I ^'^ avail aw 9ml3 ;tt»odB ;lejjt al it. BBOBOBd 

,:!inBaiai lo ^loa ^ari^t qo;fa ol .d-aa 

.fcic, "■'-■ ' -^ t''^"' I ?cfl bBitBie "'^' tllHUaiSH .HM 

,ri;tiol bna >(oBcf gnlog aacfoa ate*? avari aW .HM 

- 461 - 2-27-45 

Mr. Drew 

and then challenges on points of order. The Llberal- 
Cornmunlst alliance Is as clear as day can make It. The 
page boys have worn a path across there. I hope nobofty 
missed it the other day, vihen the hon. member for Bellwoods 
called for a division by showing his hand, and, like a lot 
of puppets, up went the Liberal hands. 

MR. A. A. MacLEOD (Bellwoods): Mr. Speaker, I must 
take exception to that and to utilize this opportunity, when 
I rise on a question of privilege, to infona^the hon. Prime 
Minister that a note was passed between myself and the hon. 
member for •^Igin iMr. Hepburn) which was a clipping from 
"Time" Magazine, in which there appeared a little item that 
I t ought had a particular bearing on the retreating speech 
that the hon. Prime Minister made yesterday, and, with your 
permission, Mr. tipeaker, I would like to have the page boy 
take the clipping to the hon. Prime Minister. 

MR. SPEAKER: Out of order. I am standing, please. 

I would like to say, most respectfully, to the hon. member 
for Bellwoods, you cannot reflect upon a former action of 

the House. 

MR. R. A. McW/ING (Wellington, North); Mr. Speaker, 

the hon. Prime Minister has classified the Liberals as puppets, 

and I ask him to take that back. I have conducted myself in 

a manner unprejudiced, and 1 do not think he can question that, 

and I resent being classified as a puppet. 

MR. SPiLAKER: The hon. Prime Minister might clarify 


MR. A. A. MacLEOD (Bellwoods): Hitler tactics. 

3 >, r 1- 

- 16^ - 

-iBiecflJ eriT .'lebio to e:taioq flo a^^ndllBXlo nsriJ- 6nB 

•if . -ytb 80 naslo 8« el •onjelllfi ctelnuausoO 

\fco^ort sq^crt I .ftTftrict eeoios rf^sq a niow everi zvod Bneq 

eftoowXIea tol aadmem .ao£i - '•.• ,\ff£; lari^fo •!!* J-i Dsaelm 

ctcl ft »:iJtI ,&ne .ftnsff e!n : .. vjb js rtol ballfio 

.el)nB£i ijBioaiJ. 9.IJ Jxisw qu ,a;t«qqj-' 
;Jeu Te){fl©qc: .iM rfe&oowl . .AM 

n&rfw .■^itfiiia^fioqqo alxtf ©sIj " bne cJbxIJ Qi flol;Jq»oxB e>iBJ 

•fflli*! .florf 9rf.t'<ino^nl oS , ft^s.^Iivliq lo noL:t«©up « no i^- 
.floil ©ilJ' jbOB ll»ev. ■ .i;et3'.v.j :•■ i' ^ - !5 jcaj loji 

:IXo a eew doidw (xnyrfqaH- .iM^ nial*^ lo'i iodm»m 

ctflrfvt raa^Jl ai^Jli b l>«iBaqqB •notli riolrfw nl .BfllsBsaM we-'Tt* 

iioe»qa ^flliBfiJei edJ no ^aliBod iBiuoiiiaq b bBd J"d8i/o J' I 

luo-^ *iJi.w .fiflB .^aMejaa^i bdq~: isjuihia oau-i ^ '* 

■^orf aaeq ©riJ evari o-J ©Mil biu :e3(Baq<i .iM .rtolaalnrraq 

.TBJaialM eaiiii .xia:i -> ■ ' gfllqqiio eriJ anaJ 

.aaaalq se 1 .ifibno "io StjO IS .AM 

rradmsm .noc ■ ■ ;. "^ 

"iltoi .tonnso uoy .afioowiXo' 

,197{B9gc. .1. 


"^"tliBlo cfriglfli lacfelnlM ami 

. 2lOt 

■ ' ■" - - '■ edcf 

'<lri 5l88 I hi'..'-' 
•»'TqflU 't-a-.-r*" (» 

iaeaxo s^lsd ineeei I bna 

I'd. .Rl 

,i I 

.xJ.obM .a .a 

- 462 - 2-27-45 

Mr. lirew 

MR. HEPBURN: He is bringing the Liberals down to 
his level; 

MR. DREV/: Here is the typical expression of thB hon. 
member for ^ellwoods ^Mr. MacLeod), at the tiTie they are asked 
for a withdrawal. That is the sort of thing we are not going 
to have in this Legislature as long as it is democratic, so far 
as it is possible to keep within the bounds of British . 

MR.M|l(j5^0D: We are sick and tired of hearing that, 

MR. McEV/ING: Are you willing to withdraw the 
word ^puppet"? 

MR. DREW: I said they rose like puppets, as one 
hand went up, and -^ think that is an accurate description. 

MR. McEWING: I ask you to withdraw it, 

MR. DREW: If ^r. "^pea^er prefers they rose at the 
command of the hand of the hon. member for Bellwoods (Mr, 
McLeodj, I will substitute that. 

MR. MdBWING: I am asking you to withdraw the words 
you used, Yovi do not need to interpret them. This is a 
thing which discourages cooperation. 

MR. SPEAKER: I think the hon. Prime Minister has 

withdrawn the word "puppet". 

MR; DREW: I am going to explain justaxactly vtoy this 
procedure must not be followed, if we are going to have any 
measure of good legislative procedure here and good govern- 
ment. We, here, wau't to get on with the business of the 
Legislature, and will, if we are given an opportunity, but 
we have these offensive statements being made by the hon. 
member for Bellwoods iMr. MacLeod ), and we have them being 

0^ nwoi) ai-Biscixa. saj gnxsaiiu ax au :Kmuai.<ir; 

.XeTal alii 

.noil ^n 3a©iqx9 XBOlqx;^ sxl? &1 eisH ;WaJiG .HM 

;i ' :•. . jflyoo .:iajiw qas^i jj elcflaeoq at ^1 a« 


08 OI Y»lt^ Wf 

ifcilcriw c jJbjb I 


♦new bneri 


.iM) (si>oo«irXX»<l 

jdi o£lJ lo bnan ©riJ "lo Jbaeaaooo 

fi 2i BlriT .in©ri;t ^atq- fcsefl *ofl ofc «oY .beau jjoy 

• hoj Jflisqooo sage- 
-jjfsic -Oil Bxl rf:t I :fi: 


'• ©vjgsfl ^. ^-i•5 STK 9w "^1 ^bevsroXXol 9rf ton ;j8uni anuboooiq 

-atevc -^ bfl* Brjad ^vi^flXelgaX boog lo aii/eesin 

orf rsfljaucf »ri.t ritlw no Jss o* SaBW ^aiorf ,eW .:tn»ffl 

.aorf », . ©bsm snlecf aJ-ndaiatBcJ'a evlanano aaaxld" ©varf aw 

;;. 'irlJ- «vfld 9w 5ne , v .. •' .iM) e6oowXX8ti lol ladtnam 

- 463 - 2-27-45 

Mr. Drew 

supported by the -i-eader of the Mberal group. Now, let us 
just see exactly something of the great consistency of this 
gem of human consistency who says that he cannot get me to 
answer anything definite. Just let me recall now consistent 

his position has been. He had other tilings to say about me 
not so very long ago, - in fact, since we assumed the role 

of Government, and 1 quote, "I command Colonel Drew for his 

tenacity of purpose and character. His record, so far, has 

been enviable. I am going to support his ^^overnment, because 
he is a good soldier, a good citizen, and a hard-working 
public servant. " 

tempore, >^ mores. 

But, in case you think for a moment that this is not 
really a remarkable reversal of form, just let me recall what 
he said about someone else, "We want men at the helm who have 
vision, statesmanship, and all tlwjs© qualities that we need 
so badly today. Canada needs King." 

Listen to this,"! say that because 1 sat under him 

for eight years. I know the calibre of the man he is." 
And then, let me read you this, from the same jewel of human 
consistency, "Mackenzie King has not done his duty by his 
country, and he never will, it is not in him, 1 sat with 

him at *^ttawa for eight years, and that is the reason I know." 
Now, i«ir. iipeaker, we are, after all, quite ready 

to accept the criticism. 

MR. M. F. HEPBURN (Elgin^j Mr. ■Speaker, may I ask 

the hon. •t'rime Minister iMr. Drew) a question? Talking 

about this "gem of consistency", is it not true that you were 

oi •fli d^»s ;tonnflO sri ;Jbi1^ ayoa orfw •^onets' -.emud to ines 

^tneielanoo won IlBoan dm J'sl JatiTi .aJlnlldv s^ldSiat lewsxiB 

em cfundB Vi»3 o^ e^.nlfft i^.-fio 5bx1 sH .nscd suff nol;?ieoq elri 

©loa saj csmuBB* ew ©onia jJci-"; nl - ,ose gnox X'isv oe ioa 

Bid lol woiQ I©HoXoO 6fl»mffloo X" ,stc ^nB , ;tn9(tiai»voO "to 

60x1 ,ib1 oa ,bioo9n alH .aajofli^xio Dae ssotiiiju , Jlofinoct 

•ay«09cf .^ndmmavoiJ bM ;jioqqo8 ocf anlog o» i .©IdBivn© need 

" .^fl«Ti©a oliduq 
.8910. . ?iogm©^ 

i'on el Bl ' ' -mom a lol iLntdi uo\ ©bbo xil ,^t;fi 
iBd^ IXaoBi ©ffi J-.- -.-i- 5l to leeiBV^T eIcfB->fT«msT e yllsfii 

©vBri odw mleri ©di iB aBia c^ne v a^'" ,98la BaoBsaoB Ji/oda biae ad 
fca©n ©w ^Bd;t eal^rilBup ©ac^iJ -Ib &nB ,qlri8nBmBo;tB"^f- '•■oiaJtv 

",^ril>I afc99n abaniO .xjabo* ylfcad oe 
mlrl iebfl0 Obb ^ ©eLff-j- ' ' ' -a l^.ei; n©c^elJ 

".8l ©ri OBiB ©ri:^ lo ©tdlXBO ©d^ wonai I .aiBBy *d3l© lot 

eld -^id Vixb aid ©no6 ioa aad afli-i 9lsa©:{oBM" ,Yoa©;f8lefloo 
d*lw :tsB I .OLtri ill ^on el Ji .ixiw isvsn sd bnc ,yi^i3i/oo 
".wofDl I noessT ©d^ al ^eriJ bras ,8*iB»y ^dj^l© -lot awec^v?^ ;tB mid 

yl)891 ©.t.'L'p ,LLb T^&Ib .016 9W .l&ABOii'-' . -i- ,WoM 

,aialol4-lio sd-J d-q^ooB oi 
^B» I yam ^-lajiaaqc" .i-*i ;.^aisj.^; ianua>s.n ■' "" 

5inl:>{lBl ?noi^8©up a (w9ia .iM/ T©;j3lclM ©mil'* .nod etii 
sTsw .Joy auict cj<in Jl al ,**-ipaB3sizaoo to m©^" elnJ ji/odB 

- 464 - 2-27-45 

Mr. Hepburn 

a paid organizer for ^r. Howe, when he was running as the 
Conservative candidate, and did you not abandon him? 

HON. GEORGE A. DREW (Prime Minister): If the hon. 
member l^r. Hepburn J wants to start that sort of nonsense, 
let me ask him about the member sitting to his right and 
what his relationship was with him not more than a year ago. 

MB. HEPBURN: Mr. Speaker, I asked a question: 
Was it true that the hon. Mr, i)rew was an organizer with 
the Conservative Party when Mr. Rov/e was running, and did he 
abandon it and run up in South Wellington — and got a good 
beating, to boot? 

MR. DRET/V: The member knows quite well that I was 
ot, as he says, a "paid organizer**. I was working with 
Mr. Howe,- and when he talks about not being able to take it, 
I will tell you the first time I ever met the hon. member 
from Elgin iMr. Hepburn) in a Provincial election was when 
lui took the greatest trimming of his life at the peak of his 
power, and that was in East Hastings. And you talk about not 
being able to take it. He tias not got it here. 

MR. HEPBURN: You have got a lot too much of it. 

MR, DREW: Because when he was defeated, and it 
was a personal defeat in i^ast Hastings, he folded right up, 
and nobody heard anything about him for quite awhile after- 

The difference is that 1 am not going to ask for a 
withdrawal of his remarks, because the hon. member -50 r Elgin 
(Mr. iiepbum) knows perfectly well that 1 don't regard it 


iofcnad* ^on uox tiib bat ^^iBbibasQ »vl.^evT[»8floO 

.xioxl si-li II :(';9:t8lfiT-: 1) vrFMa . 

.•aataiiofl to iioz cToiiJ' Ji ■ J- ajnaw ^c^itdqeii .i-«*i^ iscffaooi 

.030 i««Y « aBil.t •aom ioa mi.1 il^iw esw qliiaaol;^«Xn zlA iBtim 

:aol:}zsijy b bs^BR I ,'r9ifi©C[c- .iM .iH .HM 

rttlw lesiaasio a* aew vraic-^ r- »iiJ crazlcf suid' ^^ bbW 

•rl 6i6 ba« ,sntflxiui. eaw ewoP fM rr**' \-:tift'I aTf.tsvTB8noO 9rf:t 

iioos fi cfog ftflB — . ao;t8jnlII»W dJuo'- .:m ftna ^i nobnada 

8BW I ;tBriJ' IXaw 9 flap ewoa^ i^dmam - Hd .HM 

,Ji oMa^ oJ elcfa s^iad c* oda a^ilaJ ad aarlw fens ,awo>i .iM 

■xeciiiiem .nod ad* *ain lava 1 ii1 ori^t uo^ iiaJ XIlw 7 

naxlw aaw n -r I'.a •■«) [« r.">i7 ?vo-' ^-Lf^rrsh .iM) rtt^IS moT'i 

eld "ic i(aaq[ adcf era alii ei .alxamia^ .JeaJaaTis adJ io- ' "n 

^:»* . ^. -- \ n> p»\'. J-adiJ fine .-iswnq 

,a'i9d ■'>idB snlad 

i^BBlBb Bsm od aadw asijaoav. .HM 

,qij ^-■- !:•' b9blol 9ri ,"■ '■'^■^?-/- tsa"* ni SBoleb lenoaisq <» -•'■'■^ 
ria^lB aildwB ad^lup tol mid Ji/oda so-tA&xoB baaarf -^bodon J[)na 

a 10't :>!ee cJ- anlos J-oit .nfi - -' ■ •oasiat'^lf) eriT 

nlslS ics!f 'isfdmom ,ao.d BHi aauaoad .ajlTflmsfr eld lo iBwaiM^iw 
^f f.. ,..^. ^.,,», i +.,^;j Il9W xlioslisq 8won>( (irtudq-jsl ,T:i«.) 


- 46$ - 2-27-45 

Mr. Drew 


Don't you tell me, ^r. hon. member for Elgin 
(Mr. Hepburn), how you stand, because if you are going to 
in any way reduce matters to personalities, then please 
accept responsibility, for I have my own knowledge of what 
has gone on. 

MR. H. CONNOR (Hamilton East): Mr. ^ipeaker, I ask 
you a question. Is not this discussion out of order? • 
Certainly it is not parliamentary. 

MR. SPEAKER: I think both the hon. members are 
able to look after themselves, 

MR. H. CONNOR: That is what we are afraid of in 
this room, that they will both knock themselves out. 

MR. DREW: I can assure you that one of the great- 
east embarrassments of my life was the occasion when my 
name was closely connected with that of the hon. member for 
Elgin iMr. Hepburn). 

There can be no doubt about it, but 1 want to make 
it quite clear that we arc not anxious to see this legis- 
lature reduced to the basis upon vdiich he had it at one tiaie 
and vshich lie is trying to put it on again. 

Now, ^T. 'Speaker, this government is going to pro- 
ceed to seek every opportunity of cooperating with the present 
or any succtading Dominion Government, or with the government 
of any province ih this country; but it is going to do so on 
a basis that does assure the rights of people of this province. 
And I shall not enlarge upon my comments about the course followed 
by the hon. member for i^lgin (Mr. iiepburn) beyond saying this, 
that if there is one member of this -legislature who has no right 

ai 31*1 aol ladraefli .no/, .r" ,301 ao- cf'aoQ 

* ■^'7 neriJ- ^gsi -< » r^„^.,«,.,. .,-> ^..-* + -f-r,. oowb©^ yaw v, 

.no »nos sBri 

^lebio to ^uo nolaauoBlJb ^Idi Soa e. ^^up b vox 

. VTs i-n SiTiB 111 flcr ion ^l il vlniBctiftO 

•IB eisdmam .nori •riJ c(;tod ifililJ^ I ;H.. 

.a©Vl©8fB» I^B Mool (Xt •Xrf» 

nJ: lo l>l«il£' 9TJB aw jaiw al .tBXi* ;nu.'ii 

.iuo 88Vl»8fiiarl3' iooflji dJod Xliw \%di iadi ,mooi airf* 
-;jB9ia adJ lo 9no Janj uoy aiwesB nee i tWaBCI ./1..1 

yja narlw aoZtBdoo sri^f esw a'^li o ad'/xafflaaaiiadnia jaaa 

rtoii 9di 1o' tAdi siiiv b»^.o0naoo xlttzoio bbw axaBU 

.(xiti/cJgaH .iM> aialS 
aslBi' 'nfiw •»■ Ji/a , .ode JOij: nd jceo aianT 

-alasr 8lri;t a»f- /olxm / aw :tsAi Tsalo »*ltrp ;tl 

.alBSfi r. si ad dolAt bat 

ii JflBaiflT' ^ , ..oM 

ctnaesiq •itt dJi./ gfliitBTaqooo lo ^^lauJioqqo n^9va jfaaa o^ b»9o 

ctnsfnniavoj^ ari.J £l;tlw to .taemnisv IntmoG. 3nl6»#oou8 ^na to 

no 08 05 oi sniog al Ji .Jwd jYid^ni/oo aixlcr di •oalvoaq y^ ^0 

.aon^vo-rq eltl^ lo ©Icroaq lo' Svtfl'ott ©dj- aiuaaa asob &Bdi alsad b 

bawoxiol saii.'- jjasnuaoc \i-ii auy^ij ^^itilno -ton Ilarie I ££tA 

,tldi sni^aa ficoYscf (xwucfqaH .iMi al^h ladmam .norf adt ^cf 

*rf3li on eari oriw aiwJBlelga'^ alri' ' ^adfljaiB ano al arrariJ' 11 d'sri^ 

- 466 - 2-27-4^ 

Mr. Drew 

to raise any question about the efforts of this or any other 
government to maintain cooperation, it is the member who 
scuttled the last dominion- Provincial Conference without a 

Nqw^ we are seeking that conference, and have sought 
it all along. And, in reply to the suggestion made by the hon. 
Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Jolliffej that there must be 
something more than, a difficulty raised by the i^ominion Govern- 
ment, leaving the inference that we must accept some respon- 
sibility for that, may 1 point out to him that the Government 
very naturally does watch with some interest what has gone on 
in ^Saskatchewan, and that the Government has hot found it any 
easier to cooperate with the present Dominion Government than 
we have; and, in fact, some of the lecent statements by the 

hon. Premier of Saskatchewan have indicated quite as great a 
degree of warmth toward the i^ominion Government as ever has 
been express^! by us since we came to office. 

Of course, nothing that has been said could compare 
with what was said by me predecessor. But we do intend to 
continue that effort, and we intend also to insist, in the 
deliberations that take place, that in the cooperation we 
extend we also do protect the clearly-established rights of 
the people of the Province of Ontario, fie are certainly 
going to insist upon that, and it is only ilatural that the 
representatives of other provinces should insist upon pro- 
tecting their rights, iind if all join with the proper 
recognition of "ttie constitutional structure of this country, 
then I am satisfied that when the present Government is out 

oriw i6dm»!a tdct ei. cfl ^noi^Biaqooo alB^fatam. oi Jn&maisvos 
B JucrfJtv; ©onsiolnoO lBtonlvoi<I-nolnlmo^ :taeJ: srf.t f)»l.t.ttroa 

.norf e-^' -'-■' ebflm i.':; silt ^' -r,... _t ^^^ .gnuxjc iis Ji 

»cf tBura *tBrfcr &bAS ^9jJiLLQl .iM.) nol;tlEoqqO #rit lo isba^J. 

-aoqsei smoiB ;tq»oo6 ^&x;m a asidlxil •li^ s^ivBttX ^&BBm 

ia»mni9vc' ir.A:f mid nt iuc &:• vt»:n ..tari.t to'i v.t.fIMff> 

ao auos 8Ail cfAilw i&tfial. aoioa iivtlw ilo:tAW aaod Yxlsiu^an xiav 
Xna ;tl fini/ol ;toif vo^ 9rii Jari^t ftjriB .ruewsxio^B^lBfl^ ai 

aBdi iaeamievoD u " '-' j i*y e^aiaqooo o.t laleBa 

9dt i<i 8.ta»ma;tBJ8 .taeoa: axi^t ':o omoe. ,ioe') ni ,£>nB ,-evsd aw 

A ;tB»-i,-, ,. .. a^lxip biiiBoit-^ ^. .- .-^,.i;~- 

8Brf leva SB J^namariAVOt) floialxHOVA oricr Jb-r«wo<t ricfariBW lo t»Ts«6 
.•ol'tlo cJ" amso aur Aoals sit \d bVBSAiqxe naed 
•ir Q8 ne8d sBil isdi gnldJon e*c;ii^oo'lO 

9Aj at ^ieiaai. of oala baoinl aw Bna .tioH© cr-iiJ awni 
•w ao' " -•■'^q ■-^ <-■.'-■ ->•■■ ni iadi ,*•■■»'- ->■-/«•■ -?-•• h-^ p^noI^BiadJUafi 

lo B.trialT -ids^ae-^tliBelo 9iii &o9ioiq, ob obIb bw ba^ixa 

\. ^-, :z>'- .oiiB>JnO 1 ^....i:voi*I Bri-t 'lo ©Iqoaq ©rict 

Bri:f ctarf* Lbiuc ao al cti fine ,iBri^ noqu ;fclenl o* snlos 

-" ~oqi; cfeienl bXuorlB aaonx^fcyiq isrf^o lo a©vi:tB J^nasaiqe'i 

laqoiq sdi ilcflw alo(. IIb li bxui .a^rJ^.li tisd.t gnl^oB^t 

,'^i.trrrf-rv slitt lo •lu^'ouite ^ " r^ J :fsj&lieaoo •ti* 1o nolcflflSOOBI 

*UD ai drflsamiBToi' ;tn©a©iq ©ai nariw iadi boltaliBe ma I fl©ri;J' 

- 467 - 2-27-45 

Mr . Drew 

of offic«, — as it will be after the next •'dominion election, 
-- then 1 am sure when that happens men of good will working 
together can reach agreement for the benefit of our people. 

Mr. Speaker, it now being six o* clock, I move the 
adjournment of the debate. 

Motion agreed to, 

MR. A. A. MacLEOD (Bellwoods): Mr. Speaker, may 

we have some intimation from the hon. -'^'riine Minister of the 
business vftiich will be on tomorrow? 

MR. DREW; V/e will proceed with the business on 
the Order paper. The debate on the Speech from the ITirone 
will be resumed on Thursday. 

Mr. Speaker, 1 move the adjournment of the House. 
Motion agreed to, and the House adjourned at six. 
o'clock, p.m. 

(Page 475 follows) 

W9tCI . iJi 

,nol;JoaI« aolalmaf^ ixoR erlt isJla •d IIlw ;M bjs — .•oitlo "to 
8al2iiow IXJtw fiooa lo n»n: aneqqarf ^tericJ n»rfw 9tm am 1 nsr' 
.•Xqoeq 1U0 1o ^l^eaad drict lol ctn«m«»isA rioeei n«o leri^sao* 
•rlJ^ •vom X ,:2looXo'o xla gxil^cf woa ctl ,'x«3(«i3q8 .iM 

.•itBd«t 9[li ''- 'itaunwotb* 
.0^ l>«»nsB aotioUL 
Yfifll ,'X8iB9qc .i.a : \ fcco'JWiXsS ) QOSJobM .A .A .HU 

• ricf lo lectBlnlM trrli'i .xtori ©d^ moi'i ooli»mi&at e.iioe •v«ri aw 

•Twonoflip^ no ©d Xiiw noinw eeenlewd 
a»ni8ud «rl;t diiw £)9«r)0T:q XXlw sW iWaflO .HM 
•noTLxfi' ori^ moil rloe^qc; sri' no 93BdBb axlT .leqaq itM'-' od^ 

.y«58ii;rfr no bsmuesrr sd IXlw 

.»BuoH srl^ lo cfnefflniyot^B adj avoffl X ,i9iattq«^ **tM 
xZa iB b^aiuolba eeuoH ad^ £>nB «o^ taaisB aol;to>^ 

.m.q ,2looXo'o 

(•woXXol ^^1^ asB^) 

- 475 - 2-28-45 



Toronto, Ontario 

Wednesday, February 28th.l945. 

SPEA^CEH; Honourable William J", Stewart. B.B.E. 

The House met at three o'clock. 

Prayers . 

MR. SPEAKER: Presenting Petitions. 

Reading and receiving petitions. 

THE CLERK OF THE HOUSE: The following petition was 
brought up and laid upon the table; by Mr. Overall, "The 
Petition of Branch No. 51 of the Canadian Legion of the 
British Empire Service League a* 

The following petition was read and received: *0f 
the Ontario Music Teaf^hers* Association, praying that an 
Act may pass authorizing a change of name to the Ontario 
Registered Mus Teachers' Association, and authorizing the 
passing of by-laws respecting the Government of the 

MR. SPEAKER: Presenting reports by committees. 
I would like to inform the House the amendment 
moved by tha hon. member for York, South (Mr. Jolliffe} 
has been accepted, and shall form part of the motion now. 

HON. GEORGE A. DREW (Prime Minister): Has the 

476 - 2-28-45 

¥Xo Drew. 

Leader of the Liberal group the iiaraes to add to the 
Coimaittee on Labour Relations ^ that I oentioned yesterday? 

LIR, MITCHELLS. HEPBURN (Slgin) : I shall be very 
glad to give you that: Mr. Fo H„ Oliver (Grey South) and 
lir» Ro Patterson (Grey,, North }o 

W.« DHiii/: MTo Speaker^ at the firm the question was 
asked in regard to the motion standing, on the Order paper 
in the naiE of the hon. uae nicer for St... Andrew (Mr^ Salsberg) 
I indicated that the Government was airxxoxis to appoint a 
conunittee with the ;videst powers, orA suggested naming a 
committee of five from the Governraent,. foijr from the Opposi- 
tion, two from the Liberal., and one from the group from 
which the original resolution cams,, I have the names sub- 
mitted, but I am suggesting the best course ia to move it 
as an amendment of the original motion, and, tiierefore, it 
is moved by myself and seconded by lir^ .?rost that the 
motion be amended by striking out the words after the word 
"appointed". That has been the motion that has been on the 
order paper, and substituting p therefor, the follo;ving: 
"(a) to inquire into and review 

U) all laboui- relations legislation of 
the Parliament of Canada and of the 
Legislatiires of the respective Pro- 
vinces of Canada and of other 
jin-isdiction.; and 

(ii) all labour relations jegislation of 
this Legislature, 

with a view to the improvement of labour 
relations legislation \€iich is in force 
in this Province J an.d 

(b) to consider the means which might most 
advantageously be taken to provide 
labour relations legislation on a national 
scale at the conclusion of the present 

and to report thereon,, the said Committee to consist 
of twelve members as follows; 

- 477 " 2-28-45 

VXc Drew. 

"Messrs o Daley (Chairman, Blackvrelli Carlin^ 
Goodfelloi'/, cTolliffe, Murdochj Oliver j Patterson, 
Porters Riggs, dalaberg, and V/illiams," 


"THAT the said Select Gommittee shall have authority 
to sit during the recess of the House and shall 
have full power and authority to call for persons, 
papers and things and to exacilna vatnesses under 
oath and that the Assembly coramand and compel the 
attendance before the said Select Gorairiittee of such 
persons and the production cf suvOh papers and 
things as the Committee may deein necessary for any 
of its proceedings and deliberations for which 
purpose the -Honourable the Speaker may issue his 
warrant or warrants o" 

VJhat I have done^ is to indicate the amendments that 
we propose 5 which will incorporate the lasaning of the 
original motion^ and it is the purpose of the Government 
of having a continuing committee '^Ich car! sit at any time, 
during the course of the Legisl^^'tu^S:; ^^ after, v;ith full 
pov;ers which are not accorded to the ordinery committee ., 

The procedure v;ould be for the motion to bo called 
for in formally presenting this arendmento 

THE CLERK OF THE HOUSE: Notices of Motions, lIOol;, 
by Mr. Salsberg, Hesolution, That a select committee of 
the Legislature be appointed to examine the whole field of 
laboinr relations in Canada and other countries and draft 
for Ontario a Labour Relations Act which will establish the 
basis of justice, co-operation and responsibility v/hich is 
so necessary for the welfare and seciirity of all our people. 
Such committee to hold a public inquiry where labour, 
employer and public representations may be heardo 

ItTo Salsbergo 

im. J. B, SAlSBiiRG (Sto imdrewj : Mr. Speaker, I am 
sorry that I have not before me a copy of the amendment, 
although I listened to it„ It would seem to ns , though, 
Mr. Speaker, that the amendiiBnt to the motion would be 

- 478 - 2-28-45 

lSr» Salsbers. 

quite acceptable, providing it instructed the conmittee 
formed to bring in a recommendation for improved labour 
relatioiB • legislation during this said period. 

The amendment, as I heard it, states no specific 
time. The committee would have authority to sit during 
the recess of the House, which v/ould be quite all right, 
but I do think a recommended labour code, providing com- 
pulsory collective bargaining and union security should 
most assuredly be recommended to the House during this 
Session, and if the hon. Prime Minister [lir. Drew) would 
agree to re-word his amendment to my motion, specifying 
such instructions to the committee, I think that v/ould be 
quite acceptable. 

MR. DREW: i5r. Speaker, I think the proper course 
would be for the committee to meet, and I give my under- 
taking on behalf of the Chairman, the hon. Minister of 
Labour [iix, Daley), the committee will meet ri^^ht away and 
decide what course should be follov/ed and report its 
recommendation to the Legislature, it v/ill meet right av/ay, 
and decide its course. 

MR. SAISBiilRG: In reply to the assurances of the 
hon. Prime Minister (Mr. Drew), is there not a danger that 
the committee would find it is tie! to the _oarticular and 
references in the amendment? w'oulc it have authority to 
interpret it as it sees fit? 

USi. DREV/: The committee has full power to proceed 
right away. The additional paragrrih merely extends -.he 
power, so that it is a continuing c.mmittee, and exten("'.a 
its pov/er not only as to time, but t \ to authority, and vhe 
hon. Minister of Labour IMr. Daley) rill call the committee 
right away, i hope there is ample «Yidc«:ice of good faith 


0X1 Jtc 


Wii esjjc 

■ T .* ■■ . 

i 'V „ -. 





- trriiJT. 




'I du 




eriJ 1 





iRaoittbbB ei: 

-■■h/ i-"' c - 

iQ »©ml* Go 8fi xiac ioa 



-479- 2-28-45 

I'x. Drew. 

in the approach to this in the fact that the Government 
has set up a committee on the same basis as the election 
committee, in v/hich the actual majority of tho members of 
the committee are made up of other groups in the Legis- 
lature, and that committee v/ill consider the xihole problem. 
They can determine whether they proceed right away or during 
the Session or after, and 1 think they should act on that 
considered judgment. 

laR. A. WILLIAMS (Ontario): On behalf of this group 
in the House, I want to express our approval of the motion, 
or the amendment, that has just been made by the hon. Prime 
Minister (Mr. Drew) ^ 

I want to ask the hon. Prime Minister, however, 
whether there is any intention on the part of the Government 
or on the part of the hon. Prime Minister to see that a 
special Session of the Legislature is called. I think you 
have given us, in this amendment, about as wide a scope as 
could possibly be imagined to deal with this question, and 
I want to express my entire satisfaction with the scope 
that has been given the committee. So wide is tho scope, 
that i cannot see that it is physically possible to cover 
the field involved in; labour relations during the remaining 
life of this Legislature — this Session. Uaybe I was some- 
thing of a prophet. 

Now, seeing that we have such a wide field to cover, 
and that the problem itself, is so vitally important to -ttie 
well-being of this province, I hope Vibat we do will be an 
example to the rest of the country, is it the intention, 
in order that there shall be no delay of this question, to 
have a special Session of the Legislature oalled to implement 
the finding of the select committee? 

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- 480 - 2-28-45 

uH. DRE';?: lHy answer to that is that w© have 
appointed a committee which will meet right away and will 
have the conduct of the proceedings, and it is the duty 
of the Government, and a duty which, I trust, it will 
observe, to take such action in relation to the recoxaiaenda- 
tions of the committee as are in the interests of the people 
of the province, but I do not think the Governnent should 
direct any course until we have heard the recommendations 
of the committee, 

l^. oPiiAKER: I direct your attention to Page 4, 
You have heard the motion and you have heard the amendment. 
Do you wish it re-read? 

m, J". B. SAISBSBG: (St, Andrew): Mr. Speaker, 

iaR. SPIiAKER: You have spoken tV7ice. 

im, J. B. SAlBEiaG: Mr. Speaker. I asked a question 
and i wonder if we are going to discuss the motion and the 
Amendment now, 

m* SPEAlviSR: My understanding was that you have 
spoken twice. 

m. J. B. SAiSBERG: I4y understanding, tlr. Speaker, 
was that I only asked a question. 

MR, SPEAKSR: Go ahead. 

Iffi, J. B. SALSBERG: IvSr. Speaker, and members, the 
Amendment offered by the hon. Prime Minister (Mr, Drev;) 
to the original motion is something which is acceptable 
to the House, 1 feel, hoivever, that the subject matter 
dealt v/ith in the motion and in the Amendment is so 
important that it deserved the fullest consideration of 
the House, l want to say, first, that although the 
Amendment is acceptable, it should be pointed out that it 

aecuiTevoO QAi lo 

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oa zl!tamUiG(rM erfi- n arlt ill rftlw Jlcoa 

- 481 - 2-20-45 

Mr. Salsberg. 

is not a reflection of the consciousness of the Govcrninent 
of the need of improved collective bargaining legislation 
in the frovince. There was no indication in the Speech 
from the throne of any consciousness of the need for such 
improved legislation. 

In the speech made by the hon. member from 
lialdiman-Norfolk [liSr, C. H. liartin) who moved a motion 
on the speech from the Throne, he followed the tenor 
of .the speech from the Throne, and he too expressed 
complacency and satisfaction with the status quo, with 
the work and labour relations ijoard and of the Department. 

The changed attitude of the Government, I believe, 
is a reflection of the real conditions which did not find 
expression in the Speech from the Throne nor in the utter- 
ances of the hon. Minister of Labour iHon. Ur. Daley) vdien 
he spoke on this matter* un the contrary, what caused the 
change of Governraent attitude is the expression of the true 
relationship that prevailed in the i-rovince m the realm of 
labour relations, which expressed itself in the tremendous 
support coming in for the motion that i placed on the Order 
Paper. And, fiirthermore, 1 think that the Government v/as 
also mf luerc ed by the — 

l^. A. II. ACRES ICarleton) : Mr. Speaker, I rise to 
a point of order. 

l.R. JlEXKER: iVhat is the point of order? 

IIR. A. H. ACHES iCarleton) : The hon. member (lir. 
Salsborg) is speaking v/ith reference to tho Speech from 
the Throne, and not to the motion to appoint a committee. 

ivIR. A. 3SLANGSR (Prescott): That committee has not 
been appointed yet. 



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482 - 2-28-45 

I:R. SPEAKER: Proceed, 

:.B. J. B. 3ALSBERG: (St. Andrew): './hat influenced 
that amendment was the cooiion knowledge that almcast all 
the members of the Opposition groups were going to support 
the motion on the Order Paper and that ivould have meant 
the defeat of the Government on an important labour policy. 
It was that realization, plus the expressions of organized 
bodies in the form of scores of resolutions, telegrams 
and letters, that caused the Government to change its 
position from opposition to the motion to a more favour- 
able approach. 

The Government, I think, resolved to save itself 
from what seemed to be inevitable defeat on a question of 
major policy. 

I point this out, Ivir. Speaker, not as so lae thing that 
has no relation to the subject matter before us but because 
I think it affects our basic approach to problems of vital 

•■tie will, in the long run, have to choose between 
two main points of view, ./e will have to choose betv/een a 
reactionary Tory point of view, as supported in the indus- 
trial field by such people as the head of the Ford Company 
of Canada, or the head of the Dominion Bank, a point of 
view of orientation which v/ould spell disaster in the 
country or a point of view which must necessarily rest upon 
the organized body of working men and farmers, ^Ind if we 
realize that, vie will agree that anything which hinders the 
organization of labour into trade anions, or hinders farmers 
from organizing into their associations, is a hindrance to 
the democratic processes of the country. Is reactionary in 
character and must be eliminated if we are ;o realize in the 

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- 483 - 2-S8-45 

Mr, Salsberg. 

post-vi/ar period the goal which the common people have set 
for themselves. 

If, on the other hand, we agree that labour, as an 
organized body, can and must be the main stay of democratic 
progress in this country, then we must provide legislation 
that will facilitate the formation of unions that will 
enable it to consolidate itself and root itself in the life 
of the nation, and not only give it legislation which will 
facilitate organization but also will give it security of 
conditions and guarantee the position of organized labour 
as an essential to the maintenance of democratic advance- 
ment in the country. 

Ontario being the key industrial province should 
therefore have the best possible labour legislation to 
enable the hundreds of thousands of industrial workers in 
this province to come into their own, forming democratic 
associations of labour and play a vital role in shaping 
the future of Ontario and of Canada, 

This is important, and I would like to think that 
it was this realization that prompted the members of all 
opposition groups to conclude that they should support the 
original motion, iilay I, Mr, Speaker, say that such an 
appreciation on the part of all opposition groups is also 
an important proof of what co-operation of labour and pro- 
gressive labour forces can accomplish in opposition to vary 
policy here or elsewhere. 

Despite the tone of optimism expressed by Government 
spokesmen, the fact is that we are experiencing in Ontario 
to-day a mounting crisis in industrial relations. I sua no 
alarmist, i am associated with the party in a movement that 
advocates and fights for a No Strike policy and for colla- 

tea QTB^ eXqoeq aoaaaoo ori;^ ilolriw iBog edt boli&q iflw-i:8xjq 

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-sXXco /xcl ivie YoiXoq aaxiju o; <. . ae3"ttOovx)» 

- 484 - 2-28-45 

Mr. Salaberg. 

boration between labour and industry in the v;ar effort; 

and I think I am not laaking an alarming statement v/hen I 

say that some of the most important industries in this 

Province are now faced with serious labour relations 

crises. I could list the names of such plants, I do not 

think it is necessary. The Government should be aware of 


There was no room for complacency. References to 

the Regional «/ar Labour Board, as functioning well and 

disposing of all its problems, does not co-incide with the 

facts. The facts are, Mr. opeaker, that there is a back- 

log in the Regional Labour Relations Board of cases that have 

been standing for months to be dealt with. There are about 

four hundred cases before the Board, yet it is a fact that 

case niimber thirteen, dealing with the Federal Union of the 

Hind* plant, — number thirteen, remember, — is not yet 

disposed of, and yet the Board has four hundred cases. 

It is a fact that case number twenty-six dealing 
with a plant in 3t. Catharines, the Foster i'oundry, is not 
disposed of. 

It is a fact that the Regional Jar Labour Board is 
only a part-time proposition. It sits tv/ice or three times 
a vfoek. It is a fact that such large plants as the vVesting- 
house, in Hamilton, constitutes a glaring example of the 
ineffectiveness of some of the legislation and work of our 
committees. In that plant on November 8th, 1943, the union 
began its operation campaign, because of the obstruction and 
opposition of the management. That case has not yet been 
disposed of since November 8th, 1943, causing dissatisfaction, 
causing frustration and threatening the continuity of pro- 
duction v/hich is so essential in a key plant like tliat. 

- ^^ - 


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• ;^Ju: i;fne8€d oa el ifoxxlv aoltojjl> 

- 485 - 2-28-45 

Mr, Salsberg. 

There are roany such cases which have been hanging 
fire for nore than a year without being solved. At the 
Head, of the Lakes, the workers of one of the largest plants, 
devoted to xvar production, are compelled to issue such 
full-page advertisements , Lir. Speaker, as the one I am 
holding in my hand in one of the daily papers, appealing 
to the raanagene'nt of the Canadian Car Foundry to accede 
to a very democratic derjand of union security. And the ' 
Labour Council of i'ort V/illiam in a public advertisement 
endorsed this sincere appeal on the part of the workers. 

Here, the same union of aircraft v/orkers in our 
Province came in and appealed before the shareholders at 
their regular annual meeting, and I do not know of any 
document of organized labour better than this document 
which is issued in the name of thousands of aircraft 
;vorkers who appealed to the shareholders to grant them the 
right of union security, so that they might ?lay their part 
in the production and in indiistrial policy. 

We are seeing, l£r<. Speaker, an organized, coldly 
calculated attach on existing labour legislation, to 
disembowel it and destroy its effectiveness. 

Some reactionary industrialists, in my opinion, 
are not averse to provoking labour strikes to serve 
certain political purposes. 

It is a fact, Llr. Speaker, that members of the 
Regional vi/ar Labour Board, alarmed over the unfavourable 
decisions rendered to labour, because of attacks made on 
existing legislation, are seriously talking of resigning 
from the Board; and I think the hono Minister of Labour 
(hon. Charles Daley) is aware of that fact. 


- 1... Os> — 


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- 486 - Mr. Salsberg. 

That is no cause for complacency or for patting 
themselves on the back and saying that all is wello 

Now, Mr» Speaker, the question arises why this is 
so; and i am conscious of the fact that as I speak members 
of the official opposition will come back and say, "V/ell, 
we told you that, and an av/ful lot more than a year ago." 
Indeed, they told me that privately vihen they saw the 
motion, and on the floor of the House » And therefore I 
want to deal with that, Mr. Speaker. I v^ant to say that 
the reason for the increasing difficulties we are exper- 
iencing in labour relations is due chiefly to the determina- 
tion of a small but very influential group of industrial 
magnates to prevent labour from becoming that democratic 
force in life which they must become, and v/hich they have 
become in other parts of the v/orldo 

kJhen this house dealt with labour relation legis- 
lation a year ago, the G-overnment proposed the application 
of i'.C.lOOS, that is the i'ederal Labour Relations Hegulatinsi 
to all industries. There were members of this House who 
called that i<'ederal Legislation or Federal regulations, 
as a fact, reactionary, and so on. There were others vftio 
thought it to be the highest achievement in the field of 
labout relations. The Opposition members of my party, here 
and elsewhere, say that P.G.IQOS was a step forv/ard, that it 
was the first national collective bargaining relations that 
we had; that it is a step in the right direction, but it was 
unsatisfactory, vreak, and therefore we in Ontario should 
provide legislation that vn.ll be better than ?.C. 1003. 
And in order to satisfy myself, and not with just a negative 
attitude of the criticism of P. G. 1003, I moved an amendment, 
during the last Session, ah aiaendment which sought to retain 

an ; :iT 

I eiol *>".. 

0£fW SE,; 

.anoiJBli/noM Lb-. 

91 ^r. 


- 487 - 2-28-45 

Mr. Galsberg 

most of the favourable featiires of the 1945 legislation 
minus the court structure, because labour objected to the 
whole court procedure, which was part of the 1943 Ontario 
Labour regulations. And i have in ray handG that amendioent 
and the explanatory notes to it said that the purpose of the 
amendment is to retain the 1943 Ontario Labour Relations 
Act, except in so far as the Court is concerned. So we 
sought to eliminate the Court and vest the Kegional Labour 
Board with full powers of enforcement as if it were a court* 
Unfortunately that amendment v/as not supported by the 
(iovernment and it was therefore of little value. I mentidn 
that only to point out the position we have reached. I.Iay 
I point out to the hon. members of the House, vrhen they go 
out of their way to point out weaknesses, that that is 
hardly necessary because we all recognize them. let me 
read from an editorial in The Canadian unionist, the 
official organ of the Canadian Congress of Labour, where 
the editor as late as November, 1944, in reviewing the 
convention of the Canadian Congress of Labour, draws atten- 
tion to the fact that there was comparatively little criti- 
cism of Government policy, and then goes on to state: 

"It v/as evident, however, that 
-the adoption of the v'/artime Lubour 
Relations Regulations (Order In 
Council PoClOOS) had gone a long 
way towards eliminating the criti- 
cism of the Goverm^ient 's Labour 
policy which had featured previous 
Conventions. " 

That is from the official organ of the central 
Labour body with which many members of this House are 
affiliated and in v/hich they occupy important positions. 

Undoubtedly P.O. 1003 had weaknesses, and it is 
that small group that wants to prevent Labour from be- 



otiBiaO SI- 

Sl .... 




'CtQtSB c.-ii-XU ^'UJL/^ 

iQtBte. or trresnTtTsv 

- 488 - 2-28-45 

Mr. Salsberg. 

coming tho democratic force it is becoming who exploit every 
weakness in that order in council, challenging it in court 
and dragging on regotiations endlessly, all with a view to 
building up a structure to destroy the intent and purpose 
of P.C. 1003. This kind of action is creating an alarming 
situation in all the provinces of this coxintry. 

Speaking in reply to my amendment of last year I 
thinlc it was the Attorney General (Ifro Blackwell) who said 
that he objected to having two sets of regulations, althou^ 
he himself thought that P.C. 1003 was insufficient; he did 
not want to have two sets of regulations in the one pro- 
vince because he thought it would hamper the work of the 
Board and 7/ould raise in case after case the question 
whether a plant was a v/ar plant or a civilian production 
unit, I maintain that that is no reason vHay we cannot have 
the best possible provincial legislation, even though P.C. 
1003 has until now been applied to a large section of war 
industry only and essential services. I^ party is con- 
ducting a campaign of education throughout the country for 
the amendment of P.C, 1003 and of the -wage regulations. 
Order 9384o 

We hold no brief for the King Government's policy 
of Labour legislation. On the contrary, we demand that 
Ottawa amend that legislation and amend it quickly. But 
while that action is being taken on a national scale, we 
maintain that this Legislature should not shirk its own 
responsibility and place all the responsibility upon 

I am not afraid, nor is the Labour movement, of two • 
sets of regulations until such time as we can get a 
thoroughly satisfactory national set of regulations. Until 


oi- VTfti :Jt*Bi: 

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xfeuoiI;MB- ,8ac. 

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•raw to aoxrfoe a ne. 

-aoo t. 

Yoiloq s'lfaotr — - '-^-^ - " - -■- '■•- ^ - -■ ^|/ 

i-jBiIi- bnBrrtoI li/ocfcJ Ic 

nwo ziL XTlrie ne eiud^Ble; 

rroqu Y^Jtlicf-teaoqcei srlJ lis soBlq Site 

- Qw;f lo jjflensvom TirocfflJ -zca ^biBitB ioa sub 1 

fl teg nflo sw ll^au . j-fllx/asi lo arf-ee 

- 489 - 2-28-45 

Mr. Salsberg. 

such time Labour will welcoine two sets of regulations. 
In the province of ;4uebec, where the anti-Labour forces 
are better entrenched than they are even here, the 
governnent of that province is not afraid of tv/o sets of 
regulations, and so we have this spectacle: I7e have in 
Ontario this G-overnment saying that they cannot support 
proposals for a provincial Code for fear of conplications, 
but in the province of .^uebec the government refuses to 
have only P.C. 1003 applied to all industry-- and insists 
upon ha ving provincial regulations ani a different set 
of Labour procedure, .'/hy? Because the provincial 
legislation, the infamous bills Nos. 2 and 3, are even 
worse than the federal regulations under P.O. 1003, 
So there you have a province which is not afraid of 
having two sets of regulstions. 

The province of Saskatchewan has also adopted a 
new set of Labovir regulations, and we in Ontario should 
appreciate the importance of having the best possible 
kind of legislation to go into effect in this great 
industrial province, 

I hope that the Government will not consider the 
setting-up of this Committee as a irE;re foi aality or as 
an expedient to sidetrack this troublesome issue, I hope 
that it is not being referred to a comi-alttee to gather 
dust and that no recommendations are expected in regard to 
it. I hope that the members of this House, especially those 
v/ho are on the committee, will appreciate how important it is 
that the committee should set to v/ork at once to study 
Labour JegisQation. 

But ]et this be understood, and this is my only 

- 68^ - 

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- 490 - 2-28-45 

I'T, Salsberg. 

justification for the lengthy reisarks I have made, though 
may I say by way of apology, Ivlr. Speaicer, that more time 
has been spent on less important questions this session 
and in previous sessions than the one we are now considering, 
so 3e t no one get impatient over the time taken in dis- 
cussing this important matter. The only justification for 
my remarks is a full realization that the comL^aittee cannot 
go into an exhaustive study of all aspects of the question, 
but they arc already aware of the general type of legis- 
lation required and the general type of legislation now in 
existence. I hope that this comraittee will act with a view 
to the imiaediate needs of the industrial life of this 
province and vnll make recommendations to the House so that 
at this session it may be possible for a Labour Code to be 
brought in for our province. If the House adopts such 
recommendations and puts such a Code into operation, vdthout 
v/aiting for Ottawa to amend P.O. 1003, though I say again 
that P.O. 1003 must be amended, we can set this country an 
example of Labour legislation v;hich v;ill go far to eliminate 
the dangerous trend we see now prevailing in our province 
and guarantee that there shall be no interruption in war 
production, at the same time guaranteeing Labour collective 
bargaining and those conditions of union security which 
they have a right to expect. That is quite democratic; in 
fact, it is an essence of dynamic living democracy, to pro- 
vide union security so that Labour will have the check-off 
and the union shop because by such procedures Labour becomes 
strong, and when Labour is stror^ the whole co\intry benefits 
and it operates for the well-being of all our people. 

This is not a sectional deiaand; it is not a partisan 


. lol noi*»- 





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isnccn:^ Ti'ccfsJ 23'SL'bs: 

BJitsuea liia-auoo olca". 

■ .slqooq Txrc II; 

J aaiTBoetf code noiais ^di 

- 491 - 2-28-45 

tlr. Salsberg 

deiiiand. It is sonething that is required by the welfare 
of the whole Dominion, and I hope that during this session 
we will have before this House a Labour Code, springing 
from the recoimnendations of this committee, and that we 
shall adopt it and put it into effect. 

HON. M. F. H3PBURN (Elgin): Mr. Speaker, the hon. 
member who has just concluded his very interesting address 
(Mr. Salsberg) has reminded the House that in 1943 there 
was established in this Legislature the principle of 
collective bargaining. I well recall at that time, as head 
of the Government of the province, the many recommendations 
which were made to us by various Labour groups scattered 
throughout the province of Ontario, ./e took their 
recommendations seriously and as a result of their repres- 
entations we introduced a motion similar to the one intro- 
duced here to-day but more specific in its character. 
Je did not ask our committee to go into all the ramifica- 
tions of Labour regulations, but to deal more particularly 
with the principle of collective bargaining. 

(Page 492 follows) 

- 492 - 2-28-45 

Mr. Hepburn. 

I well remenber that the present Prime iiinister 
(Mr. Dr(3w) was then leading the Opposition and he refused 
to allov; any member of his group ti sit on that committee. 
As a result the Tories took no part whatever in the com- 
mittee's deliberations. 

Jiiut the committee reported favourably on the 
principle to which 1 have alluded and accordingly a bill 
was introduced and an Act passed establishing in untario 
for the first time the principle of collective bargaining. 
That was done, iac, Speaker, in the very dark days of this 
v/ar, when the outcome of the war was not so sure as it is 
at this moment. As a result of that legislation, during 
all the period it was in effect, there was not one single 
strike or one day of labour lost in Ontario over the 
principle of collective bargaining. 

The Tories viho took part in the deliberations in 
the House clearly indicated their opposition to the principle 
of the bill itself, and therefore one would naturally 
expect that as soon as they obtained office they v/ould 
repeal the laoasure, which they did, and in its place they 
adopted a blue print indicated by the Ottawa government, 
under the pretext of the ./ar Measures Act.. 

If this motion passes and it is expected that the 
committee might sit for any length of time, I vrould remind 
the Prime Minister that v;hen the Jar Measiores Act is termi- 
nated none of its provisions will be in effect, and we in 
this House may find ourselves in the anomalous position of 
having a committee deliberate on a bill which the House 
cannot implement because the Hoiise itself may have adjourned 
or have been dissolved. 

- 493 - 2-28-45 

Mr. Hepburn. 

The only hopeful sign I see in the appointment of 
this committee is that those wtio sit on the Opposition 
side of the House constitute, and quite properly so in view 
of the representation in the House, the majority of the 
members on the committee, under the chairmanship, I am 
quite sure, of the Minister of Labour (Mr. Daley), So I 
have confidence — not in the Government — but in the 
majority of the members who will constitute the committee. 
Opposition members in this House<, 

You knew, Mr. Speaker, that I was not so sure I was 
in opposition until I heard the tirade of the Prime Minister 
yesterday, and may I suggest to him that if he intends to 
blow a fuse again to-morrow he had better have the Minister 
of Health (Mr* Vivian) sitting beside him because I have 
great concern for his well-being if he carried on to-morrow 
like he did yesterday. 

I have confidence in the good judgment of the 
committee, and I know that they will bring in recommenda- 
tions which will be implemented by the majority of the 
members of this House and v/hich will not be repealed by 
any succeeding Tory government » 

HpN. CHARLES DAL3Y (Minister of Labour): Mr, Speaker; 
I had intended to speak on this very subject at a later 
period in the session, and so I shall be very brief on this 

m, JOLLIFFE: We like to hear from you at any 

MR. DALEY: Thank you very much. I think I should 
touch upon one or two questions that have been raised here 
this afternoon. One was the Labour Relations Board. 

- 494 - 2-28-45 

LIT. Daley 

As hon. members know this Board replaces the 
Labour;' Court. It was set up on the deDiand , one might say, 
of organized labour that there be such a board» The Board 
is composed of labour and management represented equally. 
I say without fear of contradiction in the presence of 
Labour , men, tiiat this Board of six men and a chairman, fine 
conscientious men, three of them strong representatives of 
organized Labour, have dealt with the subjects that have come 
before them fairly and to the best of their ability and have 
arrived at fair conclusions. It is no dictatorial board. 
The three best representatives of organized Labour that v/e 
could find are sitting on that Board, looking after the 
interests of organized Laboin'o It is true it is only a 
part-time board. It was felt that two days a week would 
be sufficient. I have sat with the Board at various timss 
on Sundays, when the Board on occasion Continued its work 
to keep up vrith the work which it had before ito 

One of the difficulties that has arisen is the 
very thing which we and organized Labour hope to eliminate 
by the setting up of this Board, and that was to take away 
the judicial atmosphere, so that Labour men and organizers 
could corns in there and discuss their affairs in their own 
language without having to go through legal procedures and 
iBving lawyers represent the different parties. That went 
on for months and for months the Board made its decisions 
rapid ly. But what do I find now? To-day I find that more 
and more the different parties, and the unions are equally 
guilty, are bringing a lawyer to represent them. That was 
the very thing we v/anted to get away from, because a 
lawyer in order to make a case gathers together and presents 

- 495 - 2-28-45 

Hr. Daley. 

before the Board a sheaf of facts and information that ia 
absolutely of no use to the Board in rendering its decision. 
It means delay in decisions for it takes a great deal of 
time to sift all this material that is presented both by 
the management and the unions, 

Bfciy I add this, that it has been understood for a 
long time, in fact, it was the understanding when the 
Board was appointed that the chairman's appointment was 
only temporary because he has another positi/Dn, but he 
carried on in order to assist us, I have known that 
he wants to get av/ay, but apart from that, there is no 
inclination on the part of any of the personnel of the 
Board to resign, 

MR, MacLEOD: May I put a question? 

MR, DALEY : Yes, if I feel like answer ingo 

13R, 2/iaclEOD: Does not the minister think that the 
difficulties to which ho refers and viiich obviously do 
exist could be obviated if the province of Ontario did 
have a proper Labout Code? 

MR* DALEY: The definition of a proper Laboxir Code 
will vary according to the mind of the speaker© 

The Prime Minister has said t^at he will bring 
into operation sound Labour legislation, and I will say 
this, that organized Labour has made more progress in the 
last two or three years than they have made in many, many 
years previous. Criticize P,C, 1003 as you will, the fact 
remains that Labour has made great progress* I as Minister 
of Laboior in the province of Ontario have never heard one 
word from one chief executive against the operation of the 
Act, But be that as it may, I said when the Act was intro- 
duced that we would put it into operation and that during 

- 496 - 2-28-45 

Mr, Daley 

$he operation of the Act we might find it desirable to make 
certain amendments which have shown to be necessary. Th* 
Opposition have critl^izdd severely and criticized long 
the fact that committess have been set up, but nevertheless 
it is our opinion, after a year's operation of the Act, 
that some amendments should be made. I know that the unions 
are wanting their security program. That v/as not &*r%n edi:<* 
sidered a year ago. That is something comparatively new. 
There was no demand for it at that time. These things will 
have to be considered. The Govemment have asked the various 
gl\>ups in the House to co-operate with them in setting up a 
committee to investigate the whole matter. We shall have to 
judge Just what changes should be made after that committee 
reports its recommendations to the House. As the Prime 
Minister has said, the Govemment will be in a minority on 
that committee, and therefore I suggest to hon. members that 
we might quite properly avoid a lengthy discussion of the 
subject on this motion because the Opposition members on the 
oomnittee will certainly look after their interests. I 
personally would like to see that committee called very soon, 
although I am not prepared to say at the moment that something 
definite in the realm of policy may be evolved this session. 
But let us let the committee get to work. 

I think that talk such as the hon. member for 3t. And- 
rew (Mr. Salsberg) has indulged in this afternoon does not do 
any good. It does not help labour -management relationships to 
be continually pointing out that every man who happens to own 

- 497 - 2-28-45 

Mr. Daley 

a factory or is in a position to employ people is a vicious, 
greedy person, because that is not so. 

MR. SALSBERJ: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker — 

MR. SPEAKER: What Xa the point of order? 

MR. SALSBEEG: Neither in my speech this afternoon 
nor in any other speech have I ever said that every employer 
is what the Minister has just implied I said. 

MR. SPEAKER: He did not say you did. 

MR. SALSBEEG: Let me point out that certain 
reactionary -minded employers are chiefly responsible for the 
difficulty into which the minister gets scmetimes. 

MR. SPEAKER: That is not a point of order. 

MR. DALEY: There is a growing recognition and 
acceptance by management and employers both large and small 
of their responsibilities to the men who work for them, as 
to their health, their conditions of labour and their wages. 
I think I can speak from experience after having served in 
this office for some considerable time and met all kinds of 
people, and I can affirm that there is no desire on the part 
of management generally to keep the worker down. You can 
write everything you like into a labour Code but unless you 
get co-operation between the worker and the management you 
might just as well have no code at all. They must both accept 
their responsibilities. By being too drastic in curbing people 
and atbitrarily telling them what they have to do we can destroy 
the hope we have after this war of having full-time employTnent 

i; V A 

r ■' ,- 

J i%um \t. 

: 005 

- 498 - 8-28-45 

Mr. Daley 

for tine people of this country and the boys coming home. 

MR. A. WILLIAMS (Ontat^o): Mr. Speaker, I intended 
to JLimit my question to the l^on. Prime Minister to one parti- 
cular matter, but apparently the discussion has gone beyond 
the anendment and now we f^nd ourselves involved in what is 
nothing more or leas than a debate on the merits or demerits 
of P.O. 1005, but in view of the fact that reference has been 
made to P.O. 1003 this afternoon I would ask the indulgence of 
the Hou9=e" to make a few comments upon it myself although I 
realize that the kind of debate that is now going on, to call 
it such, hardly comes within the rules of the House. But as 
so many others have spoken, I am quite sure, Mr. Speaker, that 
you vd.ll not rule me out of order. 

The first thing I want to say is this , that nobody 
in this House can be happier to-day than we of the official 
Opposition to-day though it has taken us twelve months to 
bring about this degree of happiness. When I spoke on this 
subject of labour in the House last session, there was no 
doubt at all in anybody's mind then that we were "lone wolves" 
in our attitude to P.D. 1003, but to-day we find that those 
who gave it a sort of benevolent blessing are Joii; with us 
and wanting something else in its place. 

MR. DALEY: You are Joining with us« 

MR. WILLIAMS: Do not tempt me. They are Joining wiUi 
us to-day, although it has taken them twelve months to wake 
up. But we are glad that they have wakened up. 

- 499 - 2-28-45 

Mr. Daley 

My question to the hon. Prime Minister this after- 
noon was prompted solely by this simple fact. The hon. 
member for St. Andrew (Mr. Salsberg) Icnows perfectly well 
when he asks that the committee bring in recommendations at 
this session of the House, that that is something that can- 
not be done unless the life of this session is extended. 

MR. SALSBEEG: I know nothing of the sort. 

MR. SPEAKER: Order, You have had your chance. 

MR. WILLIAMS: The hon. member is not fooling any- 
body but himself when he says that. 

MR. SALSBERG: I say — 

MR. SPEAKER: Order. You have had your chance. Give 
everybody else the same chance. 

MR. V/ILLIAMS: It is common knowledge amongst all 
hon. members — we in this official Opposition are the 
newest of all the members — but it is known to many of the 
Progressives and some Conservatives, and there is a group of 
older members of this House who know perfectly well that the 
committee which considered this question last time took a very 
considerable time. I do not know Just on what date Easter 
comes this year but perhaps about the end of March* 

AN HON. MMBER: On April Idt. 

MR. VHLLIAMS: Then we have roughly about a month to 
go. All members know the time that was taken, by the last 
Labour Committee, and this will be an even longer Job. I 
have Just finished sitting as a member of the Select Committee 

- ^QQ - 2-28-45 
' Mr. Williams 

on the Election Laws, and if anybody is foolish enough to 
think that you can study those laws and recommend suitable 
amendments in a very little time, in view of the conflicting 
opinions — I do not mean conflicting opinions in the ranks 
of Labour but conflicting opinions as between Labour and not 
merely reactionary Tory employers but reactionary Liberal 
employers as well — anybody who expects the canmittee to 
bring in their report before April 1st for the implementation 
by this House little understands the situation. 

liR, SEEMER: I ask the hon. member to remember he 
had a very fair hearing, and I will ask him to .please accord 
the other hon. members of the House the same respectful 

MR. WILLIAlidS: There is a wide divergence cf opinion 
between the two factions of society. I will not labour the 
point, because it is obvious. It has been obvious ever since 
there was such a thing as an employer and a labourer. Y/e are 
not so one-sided that all of a sudden on this side of the House 
we are afraid to mention the possibility of there being a 
Liberal reactionary. We know that they are in both groups 
of this House, and the reason I asked the hon. Prime Minister 
the question is, are we going to allow these things to go on 
that have been found by experience during th.e last twelve months 
— althoxigh you would not pay any heed to los in the. last 
session of the Legislature -- are you going to allow these 
things to continue that you all agree are bad, or are we 

- 501 - 2-28-45 

Mr. Williams 

going to aoTrect them? I repeat, Ut, Speaker, we cannot 
have that new labour law for the province of Ontario in 
this session. I am wondering what is going to happen in April, 
about the very thing? that tlie hon, member for St. Andrew 
(Mr. Salsberg) complained about. Is the cpmplaint still to 
continue? Or a^re we going to do whatever we can in this 
House right t^ile thi^ lession is sitting, >for the jjurpose 
of preventing these al^uaies? The talk here of moving an 
amendment in the last session of the Legislature to h^e the 
old 1943 clauses of the. Act applied, and eliminating merely 
the court procedure, is talk with one's tongue in one's dheek. 
I sat in the old Labout Court, and I have heard lawyers down 
there tedking for hours on end, twisting every conceivable 
thing f<|und in that 1943 piece of legislation, not the Court, 
mind you, but the other parties to it — which the hon. 
member for St. Andrew {Mr. Salsberg) want to keep. I h«ve 
h^ard very clearly again to-day the hon. member for St. Andrew 
repeat this thing about the retention of those clauses , as he 
stated it in the last session of the House. ViThen he speaks 
about keeping those pieces of legislation, he ^ays he wants to 
keep company unions too, because- that is in that piece of legis- 
lation. There is no reference in that piece of legislation to 
the check-off, and the closed shop; not a word afeout it, and 
that is the kind of thing he wants to keep. 

Oh, no;' he does not want to keep it. Of course he 
does not. He Jujs^t wanted to talk about something because they 

_ 502 - 2-28-45 

Mr. Williams 

did not want to oppose — they did not want to join with us 
and oppose this thing that they are now wanting to kick the 
struts from under — this 1003. 

We have not changed our policy with regard to that. 
Our policy is the same now as it was in the last session of the 
Legislature, and vftien hon. members quote statements made by 
responsible officials of the Labour organizations of Canada, I 
want to point out to this House, as well as to these particular 
hon. members, that those responsible organizations are themselves 
asking — and I have a document from one of them here — asking 
for the very same things to be done now with regard to 1003, as 
we were asking for during the last session of the House. 

V/e know in the ranks of labour of the difficulties 
which Labour has experienced in regard to the Labour Relations 
Board. Not the Regional War Labour Board. The Regional V/ar 
Labour Board deals with wages; the Labour Relations Board is a 
Board vftiich deals with labour relations. 

We know the difficulties. I myself have had a case 
for certification for one of my Locals before the Labour 
Relations Board since last October; one of the simplest cases 
that anybody could wish to have, and, Mr. Hon. Minister of 
Labour (Mr. Daley), there was no lawyer on either side, so 
there was no confusing of the situation. 

It was a simple case. On behalf of this Local I 
petitioned for certification. The employer replied saying 
he had no objection to dealing with the Union; all he wanted 

505 2-28-45 

Mr. Williams 

was to be satisfied that it represented a majority of the em- 
ployees. They sent an investigator in. The investigator 
inves^tigated and, do you knov/, all that he did after his in- 
vestigation was, not to offer a certification, if you please, 
hut just report back to the Board. And then the Board decjaes 
later on in a hearing. 

I mean, this was not a reactionary employer, either 
Liberal or Tory. He is really a very fine gentleman. I d3 
not know what his politics are. By the way he acts, he must 
be C.C.F. 

But when we came back for the hearing of the Board, 
through its Chairman — and here again I want to say that I 
have the highest regard and admiration for the Chairman of the 
Labour Relations Board — the Chairman asked, "Do you want a 
vote taken?" and the employer said, "No, we are willing to dai 
with the union". This was on January 9th of this year. We 
still have not been certified. That is, from October 6th we 
have not yet been certified, I could quote cases from V^elland- 
— I have a bundle of those cases here in my folder — and from 
the head of the Lakes. Oh, we get the stuff from these places 
just the same as the hon. member for St. Andrew (Mr, Salsber^) — 

MR. SALSBERG: I am glad to hear that. 

MR. V/ILLIAlviS: The only thing we do not do is send out 
a lot of telegrams. 

im. SALSBERG: You learn that part, 

MR. SPEAKER: Order. 

MR. WILLIAMS: Kor get others to send them out for us. 

504 2-28-45 

MR. SPEAKER: Order, 

ItlR. WILLIAMS: I could quote case after case in re- 
gard to the activities of the Labour Relations* Board, but 
I waht to say — 

HON. CHARLES DALEY (Minister of Labour) : May I ask 
the hon. member from Ontario (Mr. Williams) a question'? 

MR. SPEAKER: If he cares to answer. 

MR. DALEY: Would you supply me, confidentially if 
you wish, with the details of this case you are referring to, 
and allow me to make a report, without mentioning names, as t^ 
what I find here, to the hon. members of this House? 

MR. WILLIAJvIS: Yes, most certainly. Incidentally, I 
would not mind your making known the nameHo I would be glad 
■^0 have the House know the name of the employer I an referring 
to, because it would help, perhaps, employers to realize that 
we pay all tribute to those employers who "play the game". 

I do not know ■v\ftidther it is in order at this particu- 
lar moment to say one other thiiig in reply to the question by 

the hon. Minister of Labour (Mr. Daley) which he asked me. 
I think the hon. Minister (Mr. Daley) would himself accord me 1h e 
opportunity of maki3^ a comment, after he has reported to the 
House, if I find a comment necessary. 

im, DALEY: Certainly. 

MR. WILLIAMS: Thank you. We will remember that you 
and I have a little private deal on in the House. 

MR. SPEAKER: So will I. 

MR. WILLIAJ©: The only man who mekes me tremble in thjs 

.DD5 505 


House is the Speaker. I know his authority. 

MR. SPEAKER: Let us get on with the motion. 

MR. WILLIAMS: This Labour Relations Board of the 

Province of Ontario is fortunate in having Just the kind of 
Labour representative on it that it has. I think the Board 
is very fortunate in having the kind of employer representatives 
on it that it has. Naturally, v/hen one is dealing with a lot 
of questions before such a Board as this , one does not always 
agree with that decision, but the hon. Minister of Labour 
(Mr. Daley) does not always agree with their decisions. To 
the hon. Minister of Labour (Mr. Daley) — I want to, here on 
the floor of the House, advise him of some of the things that 
he, himself — because, after all, the hon. Minister (Mr. Dal^y) 
is really the administrator of this particular regulation, be- 
cause, due to the fact that we brought in the implementirg legis- 
lation at the last Session, it puts him in a position, as the 

Minister of Labour, of being .the directive force in this par- 
ticular order. 

Now, this particular case to which I refer: I said 
that last October we applie'd' for certification, and in due 
course we had a hearing. I beg your pardon; an investigator 
was sent in. When the investigator found that we had a major- 
ity of the employees in the plant, why could not he issue the 
authorization then and there? 

MR. DALEY: He had not the authority. The Board issues 

DD5 2-28-45, 

MR. WILLIAMS: I know he has not. If he had, he 
•would. It Is because he hasn»t that he doesn't. But, the 
simple question I asked was, M*iy has he not the authority to 
issue the certification there and then? 

Similarly, if a vote is taken, and it shows an over- 
whelming majority for the unions, why should you have to wait 
-again, for gooAness knows how long, until the Board formally 
meets and makes a decisipn,. and then sends out its decision 
to the unions? Why cannot the person taking the vot« have 
the authority to issue the certificate then and there? 

I guarantee, Mr. Speaker, that if such a policy was 
followed that ninety -nine per cent, of the delays which now . 
exist with regard to the Board's final decisions would be 

Oh, I know that the Board occasionally gets a case 
like the Brown Bread case, for example. I do not know whether 
Brown's Bread is Liberal or Tory, but it is very obvious, 
from their conduct before the Labour Relations Board, that 
they are reactionary. That was a case that took nine days aid 
two nights. I wall know that the Board cannot speed up its act- 
ivities in regard to these simpler cases when it is tied up so 
completely with these difficult ones. Personally, I think 
the Board could very well adopt some other kind of method, 
with some of these "birds" who roll up there, and who do nothiig 
but be difficult. Reason has no effect on them, and if you play 
on their emotions you find they have not got any. Now, that is a 
very simple process to follow, very simple. 


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507 2-28-45. 

Because I criticize, I like to pay tribute, too, and 
in this respect I want to express my personal satisfaction 
that the hon. Minister of Labour (Mr. Daley) has found better 
aceonModations , although, between us, I am not very fussy about 
the place they are in now. But it is a lot better than it was 
before t 

Another thing that could easily be avoided, - and I 
think they are beginning to avoid it now, - is that you are 
notified to appear for a hearing before the Board at ten 
o'clock in the morning, and when you get there you find that 
everybody else has been told to get there at ten o'clock in 
the morning. That is so silly. I raised the point one day at 
a hearing. I was there at ten o'clock, half -past tan; one of 
those lawyer people was on, and the one thii't took the longest 
time was the one who knew the least about v^at he was talking 

MR. DALEY: That is so often the case. 

MR. WILLIAI.fS: The man who was representing the uniona- 
- oh, I knov/ that "crack" was not intended for me. If it was, 
say so, and I have a good one to come back with. 

MR. SPEAKER: Let us get back to the motion. 

MR. WILLIAMS: 1 agree, sir. The lawyer 'yiho was rep- 
resenting the company took quite a long while, and I find this, 
that in almost ninety-nine per cent, of the cases where the coift. 
panies have lawyers to represent them that all the lawyer has 
succeeded in doing is putting the company in a bigger hole than 
it thought it was in before, — ninety -nine per cent, of them. 

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.iriad* lo .d-£»o r&qi &ata-xi&ata — « 910 lad at aaw d'l id^Jwod* d^l 

508 2-28-45. 

But they talk about this -feusinesa of "Labour Relations", 
and every single word they say about it simply tells you that 
they do not Imow anything^- at all, about it. I am pleased to 
say that I was able to aay tliat this arrangement about getting 
people to the hearings at ten o'clock was really silly. When 
I said it at a Board hearing they brought in the provincial 
police to throw me out. They did not throw me out, of course. 

I suppose they thought that the presence of the provincial 
police would sort of have a taming effect on one. Well, I 
have been confronted by the provincial police many times. I 
remember in-^he hon. Premier's office down below, the Liberal 
Premier'ai office down below, on one occasion I was there — 

MR. SPEAKER: May I suggest to the hon. member for 
Ontario (Mr. Williams) that we get back to the motion. I 
think I have been very generous this afternoon. We are really 
holding up Labour procedure. 

MR. WILLIAMS: Very well. I will conclude in a few 
minutes, sir. I would not have done this, were it not for the 
fact thajfc this matter was injected at this particular moment. I 
would have avoided it. I would have greatly preferred to have 
had the opportunity of making my speech on 1003, which I want to 
make, in my speech on the Address, - on the Debate from the 

HON. LESLIE E. BLACKWELL (Attorney General): You are 
not going all over it again? 

MR. WILLIAMS: But, unfortunately, this matter has 
come in unduly. 

.ej^-8S-;l 805 

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Bflii lettam airicf ,ijX©JflmjJ)-iotxxif ,dx;a :aMAIJJIW .HM 

\XS.ijbajj at mnoo 

509 2-88-45. 

I will ccai elude, Mr. Speaker, in deference to your 
''wishes, by saying what I really aald n^en I -asked the hon<, 
Prime Minister (Mr, Drew) what I did, and that is that we are 
particularly anxious, as we have always been, to give right-of- 
way to any progressive legislation which may be brought on the 
floor of this House. I do not care who brings it in. If it 
is progressive legislation, I, for one, — and I know it is the 
viewpoint of my Parly, — will be pleased to support it. And» 
of course, on this moti«n pr amendment being introduced by the 
hon. Prime Minister (Mr. Drew), I do not care whether it is 
stealing anybody else's "thunder" or not, w* will support it, 
but we are not going to tolerate, during this Session of the 
House, the evils that we have found, and which we knew would te 
found, in 1003, — nor that they shoxild continue. We are not 
only going to do our best, through the medium of this ©mmittee, 
to see that this province gets the best Labour laws that can be 
found anywhere, in the hope that it will be an example for the 
rest of the country, but v/e are also going to do our best to see 

that the workers will have full and free opportunity under 1003- 
— improved, if we can, — until we bring in this improved and 
better legislation, through the medium of this committee. 

HON. LESLIE M. PROST (Provincial Treasurer): Mr. Speaks 
I do not. know vihether it is in order for a lawyer to get tangled 
up in this matter, or not. But, if it is, I would like to say 
scmethiBg. First of all, I should like to say that I never like 
to sail under false colours. I am not an e^ert on labour mat- 
tars, at all. I have learned, I think, more about labour matters 

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510 2-28-45 

lv!r. Frost 

through sitting in this Howise over a period 6f- scsae ten Se«- 
■ions, listening to hon. gentlemen, like the hon. gentleman 
who has Just spoken (Mr-— Williams) , {who no douW; has a very ' 
great and profound knowledge of labour matters,) than from any- 
other source, and I want to be honest about that. 

However, I should, say this: I think this is the tenth 
session I have sat in this HoiMie, and I think I have paid at 
lease reasonable diligence to public affairs. I want to say 

that I am amazed at the speech made by my good friend from 
Elgin (Mr. Hepburn) this afternoon. He has amazed, me on many 
occasions, but never more than this afternoon. I want to be 
fair about this, and I have been trying to search iHto the re- 
cesses of my memory and to my knowledge, I believe this was the 
first occasion we ever heard the hon. member for Elgin make a 
speech in favour of collective bargaining. If I am wrong, I 
■hall be glad to be corrected. wue 

MR. HEPBURN (Elgin): Mr. Speaker, I will correct the 
hon. Minister (Mr. Frost) on one point. He has not been here 
ten years. 

MR. FROST: I said ten sessions. 

Kffi. HEPBURN (Elgin): May I say, Mr. Speaker, that I 
was the one Who named the committee to study and report on the 
question of collective bargaining. 

MR. IROST: I shall refer to that in a moment. The 
situation was this: I came into this House in 1937, and I be- 
lieve at that time the hon. member for Elgin was Prime Minister 
of this province and Leader of the Government, up to the fall of 

S*-88-S 0X3 

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2 -28-45 
Mr. Frost. 

1942, and never as long as he was the leader of the Government 
or the leader of the Liberal party, did he ever introduce a 
collective bargaining bill — never at any time. 

I^. GARFIELD ANDERSON (Fort William): Only at election 

MR. FROST: I will tell you when he introduced it — 
or rather, he did not introduce it. Mr. Conant introduced it, 
during the session of 1943, after he became Prime Minister in 

To go back to my memory again, I would like to say 
this: I came into this House in 1937. The first session was 
held in the fall of 1937 — a special session of parliament. 
I well remember that year for many reasons, and one of them 
was the speech which the hon. member for Elgin made in that 
fine old home town of mine, Crillia. I do not know v^ether he 
wag carried away with the historic events in that community or 
by the old traditions represented by the statue of Samuel Cham- 
plain, which looks out over the waters of Lake Simcoe. But 
I remember that at that time the hon. member for Elgin said that 
he would bar the C.I.O. at the border, V/ell, looking across the 
House, I see there are about fifteen or twenty G,I.O»s sitting 
there, and I presume if the hon. member for Elgin had his way, 
you would be sitting over on Navy Island or some place like that. 

I will say this to you, the reactionary Tories, as we 
are referred to in certain quarters — the reactionary Tories 
never in their history, or never in modern history, and never 


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levofl I . cTto^faXxI mcofcom rti Tevsn 10 ,-v:'iod-sJ:rf Ti8ric^ al Tsvan 


Mr. Frost. 

within the memory of anybody in this House, ever presumed to 
deny to the workingman hia union of his choice, and yet the hon, 
member for Elgin distinctly did, when he said he would bar the 
C.1.0. at the border. 

It is true there were differences in connection with 
the C.I.O,, and I will be frank with you in this, when I say 
that I imagine there were practices which the C.I.O. carried 
on in the United States, which you did not lik« up here^ 
But, I repeat, the Conservative party never put forward any 
opposition, nor d!te>ied the workingmen of this province, or of 
tSl0 Dominion of Canada, the union of their choice. 

Now, just to go on a little bit, let me say this: in 
the first regular session of this House, in 1958, the then 
Minister of Labour made a speech. The Minister at that time 
was the Hon. Mr. McBride. He was a very estimable gentleman. 
Mr. McBride stated he was gcting to introduce into this House 
advanced labour legislation, and yet may I say to the hon. 
member for Elgin that never during the time that he was the 
Premier of this province, did we ever hear of that again. The 
reason may be that Mr. McBride unfortunately passed away in the 
spring of 1938, but the fact is that advanced labour legislation 
was never again heard of. 

Now, in 1938, the hon. member for V/indsor-Walkerville , 
the predecessor of Mr. Riggs, now sitting in this House, intro- 
duced a bill in this House to apply the principle of collective 
vargaining, I still have a copy of the bill; in lact, I was 

513 2-28-45 

Mr. Frost. 

looking at it only the other day, and I remember that "great 
Tory reactionary" here, the Hon. Leader of the Government, sup- 
ported the bill, and I well remember that bill was held until 
the very last day of the session, and was killed, and the hon. 
member for Winds or-Walkervi lie, now Colonel Croll, never had 
the opportunity of bringing the matter on, but at that time 
the statement was made that the whole matter was going to be 
considered and the question of advanced labour legislation wouM 
be considered in the next session. 

Now, I an not su^ \ v^ ether it was 1939 or 1940, but 
my recollection is it was in 1939, that L!r. Gross, then sitting 
on the famous "bad boys' benches" again introduced the bill, 
and was again supported entirely by the Opposition group, th* 
is, by this group, the Conservative Opposition group of that 
time, and the Government actually went so far as to say that 
they would support the bill. 

The matter progressed along until the last day of tte 
session, and Mr. Hipel, then the Minister of Labour, got up and 
stated the Government could not support the principles of the 
bill and» the bill was killed, and I well recall the hon. member 
for Winds or-Walkerville getting up and expressing his personal 
disappointment due to the fact that the Government would not ac- 
cept the bill, I want to 'point this out to keep the record 
straight, as we say often in this House that now, in 1943, we 
had what was known at that time as the "collective bargaining 
bill" introduced by Mr. Conant, who was then acting not only as 


Mr, Frost, 

Prime Minister, but as Attorney General, 

Now, the facta are these — and I think it is well 
to get this straight; the Hon. Mr. Heenan, who was Minister 
of Labour, had prepared a bill, and the Liberal phalanx, 
starting here and extending around the House, stopping about 
at the aisle here, could not agree whether they were in favour 
of collective bargaining or not. They would not s&y so, but 
the fact was that there was then within their ranks a differ- 
ence of opinion. The purpose of having the committee was to 
try and solve the difficulties which the Heenan bill created. 
The fact was that these progressive people who call themselves 
"Liberal" and nov/, in the words of the hon. member for St. An- 
drew (Mr. Salsberg) are "the progressive Liberal forces of the 
province," could not make up their minds then, after eight or 
nine years, whether they were in favour of collective bargain- 
ing or not. 

The purpose of the Opposition in refusing to join 
them was this; we had on several occasions, at least three 
times upon the Groll bill, reaffirmed our support of the prin- 
ciple of collective bargaining. That had been supported. In 
the meantime, a meeting had been held down in Port Hope. You 
will recall the Port Hope conference, in the home town of the 
hon. l-!ini3ter of Health (Mr. Vivian). Later on the Winnipeg 
convention was held, and I remember a C.I.O. newspaper com- 
menting upon and complimenting the parties on the definition 
contained in the Winnipeg Platform of 1941, I think it was. 

- 515 - 2-28-45 

Mr. Fro*. 

The fact was this we asked the Government finally, after 8 
or 9 years, to make up its mind as to whether it was in favour 
of collective bargaining or not and to bring down the bill and 
to quit* fooling and it was not necessary for the members of 
the opposition to go down and sit cax. the Committee to make up 
their minds whether they were in favor of the principle of col- 
lective bargaining when they had been arguing for it over a 
period of 8 or 9 yi^ars. 

MR, MACLEOD: Apropos to what you just said. If the 
Progressive-Coaeervative party is in favour of collective bar- 
gaining in line with the Winnipeg Declaration, why is this 
Government now referring the matter of a committee? 

MR. FROST: V/e are not referring the matter of col- 
lective bargaining to a committee at all*. What has been refer- 
red to the committee is this — the whole matter of the labor 
code in an endeavour to bring out something which is satisfactory 
and reasonable to all parties concerned. That is the purpose 
of it. It is not to hear the question of collective bargain- 
ing at all. 

I want to say this to tLe hon. members of this House, 
just to keep the record straight. One of the things that we 
vidilently opposed then in the document which was produced by the 
faaous Committees that the hon. member referred to, was the ia- 
famous Labour Court. V/e opposed that. We asked for a Labour 
Relations Board at that tirie , We moved amendments to the bill. 
We worked against the bill, and I want to say this in fairness 
to the hon. member from Elgin (Mr. Hepburn) that he had retired 

- 51.6 - 2-28-45 


at that time in February, 1943 — \\toich keeps hia record en- 
tirely clear — for this reason, that never during the life 
time of his Government or during the time that he was connected 
with the Government of this province was ever collective bar- 
gaining introduced, so that he has an entirely clear record. 
He is right out of the picture. The bill was not introduced, 
I think, until the latter part of March, 1943, after he had re- 
tired from the Government, and it became law, my recollection is, 
I think the beginning of April, 1943, and with it the infamous 
Labour Court which we objected to most whole heartedly and de- 
spite what may be said abcxit the present bill, we took the 
first opportunity of getting rid of that in the session of 


Now, Mr. Speaker, in looking around this House and 
looMing over at the hon. member from Elgin (Mr. Hepburn) and 
looking at the members who are supporters here of the Govern- 
ment I must say — I am not a labor man, just a mere lawyer— 
I must say that as a mere lawyer it seems to me that there is 
a big difference between the Progressive-Conservatives and tte 
reactionary Liberal member from Elgin (Mr. Hepburn )<, 

MR. A. NELSON ALLES (Essex, North): Mr. Speaker, 
I might say I am pleased to see this Legislature taking the 
necessary steps to establish a Special Committee for the pur- 
pose of putting in force a committee to deal with the Labour 
Code in Ontario, 

Of course, Mr. Speaker, I might say I am a little dis- 

- 517 - 2-28-45 

Mr. Allea 

appointed — there is only one labour member, according to the 
seating plan of the house and that he should be socially os- 
tracised from active participation in this Committee. However, 
on behalf of the organized workers of Windsor I can sincerely 
aay that I will offer my assistance to the utmost on a strictly 
non-partiaaa basis. 

I should like to take a njinute or two of the tim* of 
the House, Mr. Speaker, to quote from a letter received February 
B4th from the Regional Director of the United Auto Workers. 
I quote: 

"I wish to inform you that our District Council, 
■**pomprised of delegates from nearly every im- 
"portant town in the Province of Ontario from 
"Ottawa to Windsor and representing more than 
"60,000 organized workers in the largest plants 

"of the Pro'tince, unanimously supported Mro 
"Salsberg's motion and instructed me to contact 
"you requesting that you support the motion. 
"I 4fould like to point out that we have now had 
■"^time to test the present labour code P.O. 1003 
"which was adopted by the Province of Ontario 
"and our experience shows us some very glaring 

He goes on to say: 

"Tiie defects in the Order are admitted by all 
~**those who are responsible for its administration 
"and it seems to us that Ontario would be well 
"advised to consider Mr. Salsberg's proposal 
"at this time. Collective bargaining and the 
"right to organize is now an accepted fact in 
"this Province both by regulation public pro- 
"nouncement and the report of Conciliation 
"Boaafda' throughout the Province and the country. 
"Ontario being the most highly industrialized 
"provincs in Canada should take the lead in the 
"establishment of a proper labour code in order 
"to implement the apparent desires of the people 
"to have harmonious relationship between manage- 
"ment and labour". 

I aay now, Mr. Speaker, that we are all aware of the glaring 

- 518 - 2-28-45 

Mr. Allet 

weakness of patched up P.O. 1003 and most of us agree that a 
good many of its defects are in the ambiguous wording that v/as 
mentioned previously by me and this ambiguous wording leads to 
misunderstandings both on the part of employer and employee • 
We all agree that these defects along with a great many others 
must be remedied. However, I cannot agree with some of the 
hon. members of this House as to their -approach in presenting 
this material to the House. I believe that it is wreaag to pre- 
sent it in a belligerant attitudee I think we should adopt a 
oommonsenso approach. After all, if you threaten a child with 
a stick he will run away, and how many of the hon. members are 
probably hearing about labour for the first time, s© therefore 
my point of view is we should adopt a commonsense realistic 
attitude to get together on common groundo What benefits the 
majority of the jpeople is the very basis for calling this par- 
liament together. Let us put party issues aside and get down 
.to business and deal with the situation as it iSo 

MR. GARFIELD ANDERSON (Fort William): I would like t© 
commend the Minister of Labour (Mr. Daley) for giving us hia 
assurance that he will call the members of the proposed Committee 
together without delay. Vfe have in the country very large num- 
bers of men and women engaged in war industries and there is a 
possibility that 1003 will die shortly after the cessation of 
hostilities and I think unless the Prime Minister (Mr. Drew) has 
some legislation covering the conduct of labour ready we are 
going to have a condition that will be very unsatisfactory. Somo 

- 519 - 2-28-45 

Mr. Aaderaon 

of uSf who are possibly not a» closely connected with labour 
as other* , we feel at times if we pick up a paper and read 
of a strike, that the men are committing a crimeo V/hen , 
Mr. Speaker, there are times the only way the workers can 
bring to their attention the need for adjustment is to go on 

I want to just briefly refer to a statement made 
by Hon. Member of this house on visiting Fort William, Sep- 
tember 24th, 1941. He was then a minister of the Government 
when our hon. member from Elgin (Mr. Hepburn) was Premier at 
the time. He was Minister of Hydro, Hon. v».L. Houck, and 
speaking at a banquet he said this: 

" Condemning strikes in war industries, Mr. 
"Houck said that "if Ottawa can't handle these 
"strikes, let the federal government turn them 
"over to the Ontario Government. We'll handle 
"that situation in the way it should be handled." 
"Strikers in Canada to-day, he said, are worse 
"than Lindberghs in the United States. 
" If these men will strike, we'll either have 

"to conscript them ©r shoot them at sunrise" 
said Mr. Houck. Pretty hard boiled statement for so called 
progressives to be handihg out. Going to either conscript 
them or shoot them, said Mr. Houck. 

"If England under the grim shadow of war was doing 
"100 per cent, Canada should do more than 100 per 

- 520 - 2-Sei-45 

Mr, Andergon 

But there were times when labour people had to strike to briig 

their plight to the attention of the authorities. 

" If England under the grim shadow of war 

"was doing 100 per cent, Canada should do more 
"than 100 per cent., he added, praising the 
"address given by Premier Hepburn over an 
"American radio station yesterday on the question 
"of war industiy and strikes," 

So I hope when this Committee brings in its report - and I 
am sure the hon. members that I have heard the names called 
out to-day, are quite capable of preparing a properly pre- 
pared labour code and I hope the Government will see fit t« 
bring it in just as soon as it is humanly possible. 

HON. LESLIE E. BLACKV/ELL (Attorney-General ) : Mr. 
Speaker, as another mere lawyer in this Legislature, I too 
want to make it abundantly plain that I do not hold myself 
out as being an expert in labour relations, being a lawyer. 

There are, however, Mr. Speaker, some aspects of the 
discussion to-day that really Bmazed me. I am not impressed 
with the desire of so many people to have this Legislature 
enact labour relations legislation, with the effect that it 
will have. I am not going to make a long speech because, 
after all, we are going to bore each other to death, those of 
us on the Committee. If we do it now then we have to listen 
to it all over again in the Committee. I do want to say this 
to clear up some misapprehension; P.O. 1003 does not cease 
to be the law of the Prodnce of Ontario with the coming of 
peace. Every hon. member of this Legislature should be aware 
that it is a continuing statute of the Province of OntariOo 

- 521 - 2-28-45 

_Mr» Blackv/ell 

The next thing I would like to try to bring into focua, 
briefly, is this: the power that exists at the moment of the 
Dominion Government in Canada and in this Legislature to enact 
lajjour relations legislation. There is some apparent confusion 
of thought about that here to-day. This Legislature- has not 
to-day and will not, until liiis war is over, have the slightest 
power to enact any legislation whatsoever relating to that great 
segment of industry called war industry, and every labour member 
of this House knows ito That leaves only within the legislative 
competence of this House the power to-day to enact labour rela- 
tions legislation dealirig with that narrower segment of industry, 
which might be described as peace-time industry. 

This House should be further reminded, Mr. Speaker, 
tljat when the representatives of this Government went to Ottawa 
shortly after taking office, and engaged then in the labour re- 
latibna conference, it tried to do a job for Canada* It went 
there and advocated in time of war there was no such thing in 
Canada as peace-time industry -- it v/as all war industry, aid 
under the V/ar Measures Act and the constitutional power the Dom- 
inion Government had to enact legislation, we pleaded, as we &t« 
prepared again to plead, for a National Labour Relations Code ia 
Canada, and I want to tell the hon. members of this Legislature 
that with the knowledge that war should bring, if that forward 
step cannot be taken, the chances of getting it in peace-time are 
comparative hopeless. 

One of the things that I hope this Committee will bear 

- 522 - 2-28-45 

Mr. Biackwell 

in mind that when we examine this regulations, and vstien we ex- 
amine the administration under this regulation, that one of our 
first objects will be to see if we cannot, as a Committee re- 
presenting all gtoups in this Legislature, prevail upon the 
Dominion Governmeht oT Canada to declare under the War Measures 
Act - which they have the power to do without svimmonsing parlia- 
ment - a Labour Relations Code applicable to the whole of Canada, 
and mey we all pray to God that it will work so well that Ytoen 
peace comes we shall wish to continue it as peace-ti:7ie labour 
relations code in Canada. 

MR. E.B. JOLLIFFE: (Leader of the Opposition): Mr, 
Speaker, it was not my intention to speak further on this dis- 
cussion because I think the attitude of this group has already 
been made clear. However, to use the words of the hon. Provin- 
cial Treasurer, there are one or two points on vdiich we must 
keep the record straight. 

The hon. Provincial Treasurer (Mr. Frost) I am sure, 
without any intention of giving a misleading impression, refer- 
red to a score or more of C.I.O. people on this side of the 
House, Now, it would be very nice if we had ten or a dozen more 
members in this group on this side of